Do you want a tournament scene?

[EMPEROR_COW]

hey rikuto .. (just to make a long story short)
again personal opinion.

- low hold + stand frames = not too bad of an idea ... however. i still prefer the old system on both the offensive and the defensive ...
having it "double function" was always a good thing about it ... was it OP ? i personally dont think so ...
on offense, crouch throws can deffinately hurt a ton ... if i recall you play bayman dont you ? without that low hold you really dont have many options for a crouch throw ... just something to consider ...

- 3 point / 4 point .. again im not bothered .. and the 6 point you mentioned I already used to use ..(I play leifang) .. granted she had the cheap parries as well but those did no damage .. and to be honest i hardly used them cuz i was always a damage junkie .. but i still think 6 point is a little too much ... 3-4 = no problem for me ..

- DOA has a good system ... a really good one infact. the reason I dont play it ... is
1. they fucked tag .. both in the way you tagged and the fact that AI controls the opponent
2. i dont play on pad too much (or at all these days infact)
3. story mode was clunky and crap with cutscenes that had silent moments which went against all the cutscenes from doas before it.
....
i can go on ...

but .. if you looked past all that ..
the engine they put in ... was acctually really good ... and it DID give strikes a much bigger arm of the triangle ..
I urge you to look past what people were saying or your opinion on what surrounds the game .. and go straight to its training mode .. and see the difference ... they did a good job with the fight engine (at the price of everything else it seems) but yeah ..

- the gripe i have on initial frames on start up is .. then it would mean that there would be meaty setups on wakeup (yes they were there before but 8 frames ? come on ... it was 1 frame before .. as most games tend to be between 1-2 frames) then it can create unholdable situations .. in a sense that ... say a stun gives you the 1st 5 frames where you cant hold .. then you hold and that gives you 8 frame start up ( going by ur example ) .. means .. i can sqweeze in a jab for free.. infact a jab-jab as its a 2 in 1 .. again this will lead to repitition and a logic where only this move works after this and only this can be done to garantee this followup .. etc ... which again defeats the concept of DOA .. (personally i dont like that) ... sf4 is a game heavily reliant on frames at high level and I understand exactly what you're trying to do .. but I would still rather have the frames be for the stun itself and the hold remain to 0 startup ..
another gripe i have that the characters balance would start to revolve around ... who has the best garanteed links .. and who has the most frame advantage moves and who has the fastest start up moves ... and that would severely hurt the slower characters ...
the current hold makes the differences (while stil there) .. more subtle ..

holds in stun already do less damage, and have less active frames and more recovery ...

again, im not going against your opinions or saying no you're wrong .. these changes are infact interesting ones (alot better than removing holds from stun) ..but .. I still personally prefer more minor tweaks .. and working on buffing the strike/stun launch system like they did in DOA cuz it really did make a whole lot of sense and it really did make a difference ..

 

[Rikuto]

- low hold + stand frames = not too bad of an idea ... however. i still prefer the old system on both the offensive and the defensive ...
having it "double function" was always a good thing about it ... was it OP ? i personally dont think so ...
on offense, crouch throws can deffinately hurt a ton ... if i recall you play bayman dont you ? without that low hold you really dont have many options for a crouch throw ... just something to consider ...

Punishment. Tons of moves in this game can be crouch throw punished on block. It's also about the only thing that really stops fuzzy guarding.

In DOA 5, they are even giving certain moves free counter-throw status if they are unsafe enough. It wasn't a double function either, it was a quadruple function.

It avoided highs, lows, the more damaging standings throws, and it recovered faster. The only thing that's changed is that it doesn't recover faster. It's still more than twice as good as any other hold and for no real reason. Where is the drawback? How is that fair?

Unless you can tell me a solid reason why having one hold give twice the benefit with only half the danger is fair, it is by definition OP.

- DOA has a good system ... a really good one infact. the reason I dont play it ... is
1. they fucked tag .. both in the way you tagged and the fact that AI controls the opponent
2. i dont play on pad too much (or at all these days infact)
3. story mode was clunky and crap with cutscenes that had silent moments which went against all the cutscenes from doas before it.

....
i can go on ...

I think you'd better, because only the second one was an even semi-legit reason not to play a supposedly good competitive game. But notice that nobody else played it either. Well thats not accurate, we played it... and then we stopped playing it almost immediately after we started. I played it for the swag at DID7 and never touched it again.

but .. if you looked past all that ..
the engine they put in ... was acctually really good ... and it DID give strikes a much bigger arm of the triangle ..
I urge you to look past what people were saying or your opinion on what surrounds the game .. and go straight to its training mode .. and see the difference ... they did a good job with the fight engine (at the price of everything else it seems) but yeah ..

I played the game at the only legit tournament that was ever held for the game to my knowledge with about 45 minutes of practice before hand, and came in second. That's how deep of a game it was.

Sorry, little joke... but I assure you, the game is not solid.

- the gripe i have on initial frames on start up is .. then it would mean that there would be meaty setups on wakeup (yes they were there before but 8 frames ? come on ... it was 1 frame before .. as most games tend to be between 1-2 frames) then it can create unholdable situations .. in a sense that ... say a stun gives you the 1st 5 frames where you cant hold .. then you hold and that gives you 8 frame start up ( going by ur example ) .. means .. i can sqweeze in a jab for free.. infact a jab-jab as its a 2 in 1 .. again this will lead to repitition and a logic where only this move works after this and only this can be done to garantee this followup .. etc ... which again defeats the concept of DOA .. (personally i dont like that) ... sf4 is a game heavily reliant on frames at high level and I understand exactly what you're trying to do .. but I would still rather have the frames be for the stun itself and the hold remain to 0 startup ..
another gripe i have that the characters balance would start to revolve around ... who has the best garanteed links .. and who has the most frame advantage moves and who has the fastest start up moves ... and that would severely hurt the slower characters ...
the current hold makes the differences (while stil there) .. more subtle ..

You misunderstood. I never said 8 frames of startup on a hold, I said it was 8 frames on a stun. That was a hypothetical, although a fairly accurate one to how DOA 4 works.

A few frames of startup on a hold, is what I said. That's dependent on how much advantage they end up giving to things like guard breaks as well, because the startup can't take forever but it can't allow people to counter every kind of attack after the break or its almost pointless as a pressure tool. Who wants to risk a mid jab that does 18 damage (and also leads to even more lopsided guessing) when you can get it countered by Busa for 112 with perfect timing? Both the hold option as the defender and the throw option as the attacker are the best possible things to do, so the situation becomes a transparent 50/50 with neither side having any real edge over the other.

But whats wrong with having meaty setups on wakeup? DOA has pretty much the weakest pressure against a grounded opponent of any mainstream 3D fighter I can think of. It needs more meaty setups. The only reason it pissed people off in DOA 4 with helena is basically she was the only one who had a semi-legit tool like that. If something is giving more people some legit pressure options, GOOD.

I'm not certain if you fully understand what DOA's concept is or was, though. DOA 1 didn't do holds in stun. DOA++ was very unfriendly to holds in stun and made you work damn hard for it. DOA 2 was much kinder but had hold-resistant attacks and legit setups you still couldn't hold out of. DOA 3 treated holds like they were easy to pull off, but gave everyone natural combos, 2-in-1's and setups that got around it. It made holding a BAD IDEA against a lot of the cast as well, and something you only did if you absolutely had to. In fact the slow characters you seem to think the game would work against were some of the most fun to play and terrifying to fight against because they had their unique tools for pressure and ground game. In DOA 5, if there is a frame trap, remember that side dashing is also a legit option now and those traditionally work best while at disadvantage in a 3d fighter.

DOA 4 was the chapter of Itagaki's life where he became a seriously salty scrub and decided you should be able to hold after everything. We lost wall combos. We lost backturned setups (especially leifang!). We lost 2-in-1's. We lost ground throws being guaranteed in a combo. We lost hold resistant attacks. We lost sidestepping. We lost freedom of movement. We lost our sanity. We GAINED a third wakeup kick variant covered in invincible frames to prevent any kind of pressure on a grounded opponent. And we gained cars, cheetahs, and stupid fucking dinosaurs. We've got podcasts on this topic.

DOAD was basically simplified DOA 4 on a handheld because the studio was completely reshaped after Itagaki ragequit and they (rightfully) didn't know what the hell they were doing. Even so, it gave a couple of guaranteed setup situations back from things like the boxes on the boat, or the torches on the castle stage.... because that's the kind of thing people usually want in a fighting game, right? It makes sense.

And in DOA 5, Shimbori has taken an actual closer look at the game and has begun to recognize that DOA 4 really fucked everything up, as he has said on twitter in a much more polite and respectful way, so we're getting our wall combos back as well as the occasional limbo stun. Movements a bit better, I'm sure we'll get more, as well.

The concept of DOA, as you see it, I think you are.... mistaken about. DOA 4 was a misstep. A blunder. The odd one out. The love child of a troubled era. An accident that nobody really appreciates all that much.

Everything else in the franchise doesn't really agree with the concept as you see it.... we all have our opinions on that issue, but most of them are firmly stacked against that game.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

dont get me wrong...
i never praised DOA4 ... it was FUN and I enjoyed it .. but it WAS broken as hell and i dont deny that one bit ... i still much prefer 3.1 .. for all the reasons you stated (god i miss that back setup for leifang >__> ) ...

but then 3.1 had 3 point holds and it worked as well so ... yeah .. lol

like I said ... you raised some nice ideas out there .. I may disagree on some .. but .. if it ended up with them, i might get a little annoyed at first .. but thats just the adaptation process talking ... and that happens with every game so thats not a big deal ...

im trying to find my DOA hate rant in another forum ... i remember at the time even calling team ninja as "team ninja dog" for that abomination .. lol
i found it ! lol heres a snip from it

- THE GAME ONLY USES 3 BUTTONS ?!! why the hell do i have to assign every damn button !? and why isnt there a H+P+K button!? my layout is ... b=H , y=P , a=K , x=P+K .. i dont need anything else cuz i can press the combinations myself !!
- NO GAME CONFIG :
there are virtually no options to fix apart from the controler and language .. what the hell !
- CHRONICLE:
they had a great idea and ruined it with stupid stills and frozen lips ... they had all the voices recorded ... so why not just move the fricken lips ?! add to that the crappy cut and paste job they did with many of the cinematics ... and the poor quality of music in the CG sequences that were meant to be amazing ... ( i dont care if ur an aerosmith fan or not .. the music they have instead is garbage)
- NO STORY MODE AND NO ENDINGS:
you dont get any of the special encounters and none of the endings .. (CG or not) ... again ... disapointing ...
- NO MOVE CHALLENGE IN TRAINING MODE
- NO TAG TRAINING, TAG SURVIVAL MODE, TAG TIME ATTACK:
seriously that is the most pathetic thing ... the mechanics are all in the game , and the the team throws are all in... so why on earth did they decide on not putting it in the game ?!
- TAG: WTF WERE THEY THINKING !!!
the computer controlling player 2 ?!!?! seriously ?! if they didnt want to focus on tag they should never have put it in the first place !!
why play a 20 tag challenge with an idiotic AI that tags itself in whenever it feels like it ruining any launch combo you set up !? and why the hell doesnt it do anything useful once its acctually in ?! seriously whos the idiot in team ninja that decided this was a good idea ?!? he should be shot in the head !!
add to that the attacking tag DOES NOT EXSIST IN THIS GAME !! and no stomp tag either .. this is pathetic ...
- AND YOU DONT GET ANYTHING FROM BEATING CHALLENGE 20 !! .. complete waste of time ...

that was my 1st impressions .. lol ..
and yes i threw it away after ... just like everyone else

but i put it on just recently after having a little chat with master and he pointed out some of the changes that boost strikes in the game ... and so I went back to test it out ... it was acctually quite innovative ... and I deffinately do like the changes to strikes there (or their effects on counter and high counter and launchability to be specific)

 

[Rikuto]

dont get me wrong...
i never praised DOA4 ... it was FUN and I enjoyed it .. but it WAS broken as hell and i dont deny that one bit ... i still much prefer 3.1 .. for all the reasons you stated (god i miss that back setup for leifang >__> ) ...

but then 3.1 had 3 point holds and it worked as well so ... yeah .. lol

3.1 was the best DOA game. Of course, it still had problems. Wide, 3 point counters that were all-too-easily buffered being one of them.

The reason I mentioned 4 is because you seem to imply the concept of DOA is that you can hold at any time and escape any situation if you're lucky enough and that just isn't true.... it never has been, except for 4 and dimensions. A lot of people only really got into the game competitively with 4 and before that, they probably were not aware of all these ways you could get around the hold.

The evolution of the series was not primarily designed with that hold-any-time-you-feel-like-it mentality though, so there is no justification for using it as the basis of "if you gut the hold in stun, its not doa" argument. That is only something that happened during itagaki's darkest days at tecmo. If some people like you or Relius really enjoy that, then great.... but DOA 4 was the exception, not the rule. It isn't something the series can afford to repeat ever again if there is going to be a team ninja.

I'm just trying to clarify that.

but i put it on just recently after having a little chat with master and he pointed out some of the changes that boost strikes in the game ... and so I went back to test it out ... it was acctually quite innovative ... and I deffinately do like the changes to strikes there (or their effects on counter and high counter and launchability to be specific)

They are nice changes for that particular entry, but they don't really fix the problem all by itself. Genfu could get a one hit launch for respectable damage in 4 as well, and he was one of the best as a result... but people want tools that will either stop the hold entirely, or punish it into oblivion. The hold is the most broken and rage inducing mechanic the game has, and when people continually rage with no solution they just end up finding something else to play.

So you either remove it from stun entirely, or find a way to rape someone so hard they will not ever dare to use it against you if they have any other choice.

Personally, I'm more of a fan of griefing button mashing idiots and most DOA players are, quite honestly, idiots, so I'm more prone to option 2. Bring on the damage scaling and death combos, says I.

I'd be cool with option 1 as well though, cause without holds in stun a scrub will have to rely on their knowledge of the actual game itself and not just bullshit luck to get them out of everything.


I was thinking about it a little more. if the damage scaling change was to take place and a person gets a counter stuffed by an additional stun extension they would know they are going to take a lot of extra damage from the juggle, and that actually encourages a weak minded player to counter again before they get launched to avoid it. If they get a second counter stuffed its most certainly death, too.

This actually makes a unique situation where you could either choose to viably play the riskier stun game and brave the hold attempts for the opportunity to pretty much end the match instantly if the opponent is being twitchy..... or you could use things like moves that give unholdable stuns into 2 in 1's or 3 in 1's to fill out the threshold, then use a hold resistant launcher to basically ignore the hold mechanics completely with no real risk to yourself and get traditional juggle damage. At best, the defender could hold and escape, but he would deal zero damage since it was hold resistant. This gives people some safer choices to use at the end of the round when the line is getting drawn kinda close. Nobody would feel like "Lucky bitch just guessed right and I lost as a result, great."

I like both of these.... and I see no reason they both shouldn't be present. This would actually make the game dynamic in my mind.

 

[Berzerk!]

Y'know, I wouldn't have an issue with taking counters out of all stuns, and I think grap3's made a good case that IF you did that, you would have to adjust down the stuns on the majority of moves.

But, do any one of us think that TN is going to do that given the current build of the demo? It's more realistic to discuss ways the system can be adjusted to be viable, and I think that it can be done by ensuring you get punished for incorrect holds. 3.1 is used as an example of the game at its best and we can position for 5 to be an improvement on that.

Rikuto, I had already read your earlier post on your current stance; I don't think it advanced things especially as its been discussed before, except for your concept of damage scaling - so let me respond to be clear where I'm at.

-- Low holds do not put a person into crouching state, so they can still be hit by high attacks. There is no good reason they are able to avoid two hit levels inside of a stun, this fucks with the game too much.

Sounds good. No reason to disagree. This would be a simple change that could provide a dramatic strategic improvement. Did you suggest this in the feedback survey?
The animation isn't far off looking like this either, as the character reaches down from standing, so their head should still be vulnerable to jabs. It's debatable whether mids and low throws are enough, but it's worth feeding back and for them to test with players

-- Holds are changed back to 4 point, have half their active frames cut and added to the recovery.

As we've established, I support this. Very sensible. The exact frame data would really come down to testing and is easy for TN to adjust.

-- a few frames added to execution of holds to prevent whiff punishment from being overly dangerous, and making heavy frame advantage moves somewhat more intimidating.

I think adding frames to hold execution is likely to be unnecessary if the active window and recovery are high enough, they will be risky anyway. But where I think things take an interesting dimension is to add a few moves per character that create frame advantage on guard or hit; so long as there is a consistent and clear animation and the speed to execute these moves is suitable given the high reward.
This is a sample of the kind of systemic additions implied in my prior posts.
So we're pretty closely aligned here. Again, realistically, I don't think TN will make holds delay to execute as that would affect the accessible feel of the hold moves. But making the risk/reward factor of the holds play correctly into whiff and recovery punishment, you've got what you need.

-- Every single stuffed counter will add 0.5X normal damage scaling on every proceeding attack in that combo. If you stuff a counter, it's 1.5X. Next counter, 2.0X. Next counter, 2.5X, and so on. This turns a lightly damaging juggle into a moderately painful one, and a moderately painful one into a really painful one. A really painful one into complete death (which you would entirely deserve for being such an incredible asshole as to have not only set yourself up environmentally, but failed to get out multiple times)

Don't see much need for this, they already have a normal hit and counter hit system, and if you're making holds so heavy in terms of recovery, counter spammers will get counter hit and unloaded on. You don't need a scaling system here, since we're either advocating no counters in stun, no counters in critical stun, or delayed counters in heavy stuns.

So if you take the combination I advocate, which is the same as yours but allowing counters on normal hit and not in critical stun (which in most situations may wind up looking much the same as grap3's suggestion to just tone down stuns so people recover in time to attempt to counter), you get to keep the DOA mindgame from DOA2 onwards with the extra reward for the attacker if they force a defender to attempt a counter hold, then punish them for much more damage than just landing a combo on normal hit.

Baiting for the counter hit is a legitimate tactic to go for in that system. Understanding the desire to avoid too much risk for the attacker once they start landing hits, this approach would definitely involve ensuring that it doesn't take more than 1-2 additional hits to get a "natural" critical stun, and that critical stuns are awarded from neutral on certain moves for each character.

That's before you get into landing counter blows and being rewarded with a stronger stun off the bat (and closer to an unholdable critical), neutral launchers, and guard crushing moves, not to mention the ability to free cancel and delay will still exist.

Sure, I think that the game would still be DOA and its a valid pathway to legitimacy to remove holds from all stuns (and then reduce stuns), but I just don't see TN doing it (or damage scaling when solid punishment is all that's needed - lets get them to bring that in first). Thus I think the debate is not advancing if we're getting unrealistic about what they'll actually do.

You'd have to think if the above was implemented (4 point, low active, high recovery, low hold vulnerable to highs; add properties to the moveset to give advantage to initiating attacker) that we'd be onto a winner - even if you don't get the removal of holds from stuns. You couldn't write the game off based on not getting that all the way over the line if so many other elements are improved. These are subtle but significant changes being proposed.

 

[Berzerk!]

This actually makes a unique situation where you could either choose to viably play the riskier stun game and brave the hold attempts for the opportunity to pretty much end the match instantly if the opponent is being twitchy..... or you could use things like moves that give unholdable stuns into 2 in 1's or 3 in 1's to fill out the threshold, then use a hold resistant launcher to basically ignore the hold mechanics completely with no real risk to yourself and get traditional juggle damage. At best, the defender could hold and escape, but he would deal zero damage since it was hold resistant. This gives people some safer choices to use at the end of the round when the line is getting drawn kinda close. Nobody would feel like "Lucky bitch just guessed right and I lost as a result, great."

I like both of these.... and I see no reason they both shouldn't be present. This would actually make the game dynamic in my mind.

Quoting this to say I like the "hold resistant" part which I didn't include in the list of items in the last post, but I would add, holding a resistant launcher successfully, while dealing no damage, would still be fair to reward the defender for predicting the launch attempt and perhaps provide a small positioning advantage (3/4 side turn after stepping the launch, depending on animation).

Of course, if you've managed to put your opponent into a critical stun by risking the stun game a little, some launchers may be made fast enough to land in frame advantage with no hold or block possible. That situation would be a huge damage reward for a "hold in stun, but not in critical stun" system, as it would in a "no holds in stun, but its harder to stun people" system.

Again, I'd take either, but I think we're more likely to prompt TN towards the first option. Either way, no need for scaling, but you still get the attacker reward you're after.

 

[Rikuto]

Counter-hits as they are suck, Berzerk. You put way too much stock in them. They don't do shit for damage in even terrain open space and you know it. If I'm in open space wailing on my opponent and he's missing every one of his counters on me as is, I'm still only going to get about 1/3rd of his lifebar. It doesn't even matter that he's missing them. I want you to think about how little life that is for how much effort that takes.

This isn't like a wall where I can just punch you once and take all your lunch money. Open space is riskier than that. I've shown you how poor the odds actually are.

Now if all i've done is get a good counter-hit in open space, and you didn't try to counter? Yea, 1/4 to 1/3 is appropriate, depending on the strength and speed of the move i initially hit you with. If I've got to go through a gauntlet of bullshit though, I better be getting a hell of a lot more than that if you try to fuck around with my flow.

If you want to remove the gauntlet of bullshit completely from threatening me ever, I'm cool with that too.

One or the other though. I was just giving you a way to preserve the hold system you keep claiming to enjoy every day, while also giving everyone else safe ways to not be abused by it. More fool me, tried to help you out and I got strawmanned.

Bed time.

 

[Matt Ponton]

If they take counters out of stun right now, I guarantee you that game couldn't come out in September.

They'd have possibly over 25 characters to completely rework and tweak, making them effective in an essentially entirely new system.

Edit: I believe in also how MASTER put it; that's just not going to happen.
I really don't think they'll do it.

They'd rather put in stuns that have no holds than remove holding from all stuns it seems. Based on the demo it looks like it's if your feet are not planted you can't hold (guard crush, busa's ). Possibly lift stuns as well as those were always not slow escapable and holding was delayed.

Though personally would like to see holding be used out of stun and only stagger escape in stun, but meh.

Makes me with that the game were properly emulated on PC.

Only chance we really have with that is by modifying the character files in DOA Online. It's not impossible to do but would take a helluva lot more work than two people could really do. Last I saw in that modding scene someone was able to start putting in the DOA3 levels and costumes.

Sadly most of the modders dedicated in that group are for costumes/stages not so much game system changes. I'd be on that shit every single fucking day if we got 3.1 working on DOAO as a patch to the system files.

 

[DriftSlave]

So where do we go from here because every big wall of text turns into going back into holds in stuns and personally we have too many threads with that same discussion....to prevent grey hairs(or anymore) I want to ask how can we progress in this current discussion? If that is even possible at this time with the current information we all know now...

 

[Matt Ponton]

They announce DOA3.1 for XBLA with five changes:

Hayate's Cartwheel is removed from the movelist
Gen Fu's is -5 on guard
Bass' and cause end of juggle state
Hayate's and are -8 each.

Done, and maybe give Brad Wong more guard breaks/crushes like from his .

 

[DriftSlave]

O_O Mr.Wah Your my Hero now.......

 

[Raansu]

DoA3.1 on xbla with online play? I'd play nothing else.

 

[Matt Ponton]

DoA3.1 on xbla with online play? I'd play nothing else.

"Just HOOK IT TO MY VEINS!!!!"

I honestly would be fine running 15 man tournies of 3.1, really wouldn't be anything new heh. Just enjoy playing the hell out of the game.

 

[UncleKitchener]

There's one way to find out and that is to test it. You and a friend play a game without holding out of stun while slow escaping being your only method of escape out of stun.

 

[Jefffcore]

Taking away the stun threshold and holds in stun completely is a ridiculous idea. DOA is a game based on speed. The characters that aren't fast would all have to have ridiculous crushes or the fast characters would just have to be super unsafe if they cancelled strings. Alternative is making ridiculous guesses out of stun. No thanks. Doesn't matter how small it is, they'd be able to fuck with it all day.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Why is it a ridiculous idea? It works for every other fighter.

 

[Jefffcore]

I don't want to play every other fighter though. I want to play a good DOA... Anyway... Play the Alpha and tell me how the Busa, Hitomi matchup feels, then imagine if you couldn't ever hold it stun. Or play Kasumi in DOA4 and do the same. Kasumi's speed would take priority over everything. The game would come down to just blocking and punishing, and that's super boring.

I really don't think taking holds out of stun is the best thing to do with DOA. It's not other fighters, you shouldn't be trying to make it one.

 

[grap3fruitman]

The game would come down to just blocking and punishing, and that's super boring.

That's how DOA plays now...

 

[Chris Harris]

I don't want to play every other fighter though. I want to play a good DOA... Anyway... Play the Alpha and tell me how the Busa, Hitomi matchup feels, then imagine if you couldn't ever hold it stun. Or play Kasumi in DOA4 and do the same. Kasumi's speed would take priority over everything. The game would come down to just blocking and punishing, and that's super boring.

I really don't think taking holds out of stun is the best thing to do with DOA. It's not other fighters, you shouldn't be trying to make it one.

DoA is still unique with or without counters. Buuuuuut


FOR THE LAST TIME NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT TAKING COUNTERS OUT STOP TALKING ABOUT IT

Me and Rikuto have stated we would like DAMAGE INCREASED for missing counters. We have debated this the most but all i see is crying about no counters.He even went into detail about a way for it to work out, it's a little rough but he still came up with a base for it.

At this point we want a game we can enjoy on a competitive level with more than 10 people a tournament. You are perfectly fine with no one playing the game cause you are happy to play it online and pretend you're amazing (not a specific person, speaking in generalities). Every fighter has something different about it, and it has it's problems as well as it's bright spots. DoA doesn't really have bright spots except for the players who have been playing it happen to like the series. We want to see it more than some side game at a tournament we want it to be on the stream at these big events. So if I need to make some scrubs mad about not being able to mash and hate the game but get MORE competitive players playing then I'll be happy.

Also to touch on Melty and any other game that has been backed by their community. They had players SHOW up to tournaments. Whether it was smash or melty or DIVE KICK (lololololol) the COMMUNITY showed up to events. I can count on one hand how many events the COMMUNITY showed up to. So before trying to compare those communities to this one remember if we want it to change and meld into other communities it's because crying scrubs like yourselves never show up so we can't count you (you know who I'm talking to).

 

[DrDogg]

But I don't think if they don't remove holds from all stuns that the tournament scene cannot become robust and lasting. There are many outside factors and other systemic measures in the game itself that will also play a role.

I've been saying for quite some time that holds don't have to be removed from stun. The MAIN thing that needs to be done is something that prevents people from holding as frequently as they do, and eliminates holds being the primary defensive option.

Taking away the stun threshold and holds in stun completely is a ridiculous idea. DOA is a game based on speed. The characters that aren't fast would all have to have ridiculous crushes or the fast characters would just have to be super unsafe if they cancelled strings. Alternative is making ridiculous guesses out of stun. No thanks. Doesn't matter how small it is, they'd be able to fuck with it all day.

Astaroth is arguably top tier in SC5 and he's the slowest character in the game. He's waving at you right now.

I don't want to play every other fighter though. I want to play a good DOA... Anyway... Play the Alpha and tell me how the Busa, Hitomi matchup feels, then imagine if you couldn't ever hold it stun. Or play Kasumi in DOA4 and do the same. Kasumi's speed would take priority over everything. The game would come down to just blocking and punishing, and that's super boring.

I really don't think taking holds out of stun is the best thing to do with DOA. It's not other fighters, you shouldn't be trying to make it one.

I understand that you're upset because you can't play Hayabusa like you could in DOA4. I understand that he's not as OP as he used to be, and that's giving you problems against Hitomi. I can guarantee you that Manny doesn't have the same problems you are, or at the very least... to a lesser extent. However, you'll have proof of that in a few weeks, so just sit tight.

That said... instead of blocking and punishing, you'd rather have a meterless get-out-of-jail free card that you can use anytime you're in trouble or just forgot how to play defense? Because that's basically what counterholds are at this point.