DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability

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UnD34D

Active Member
I've gone to most of the arcades in Northern Japan, I haven't seen a single old DOA machine to speak of, and I usually have to wait a couple matches to get on any TTT2 machine, although I usually stay on a while ;) Blackula raises a lot of good points. But its really no use explaining it to these guys... they are the same guys who came to DOA2 to beat off to it and now they are here, not to learn the game, but to see jiggling titties.
 

Blackula

Active Member
Now I'm going to give my own two cents about everything. I'm in total agreement with Dr. Dogg, Rikuto, Sorwah, and others that have had their hand in trying to get TN to improve this game. I remember speaking to Grapefruitman a few months ago and we talked about this. The points and concerns I listed are pretty much everything he and the aforementioned names are all in agreement on about the things that need to change in this game so that it can be a more competitive game that's not laughed at by others and that would want to make others actually pick up the game and play it.

I had a discussion with a friend the other night because he was considering possibly trying DOA5. He never really touched any of the past DOAs before so he doesn't know about the differences among the game in the series. When my other friend and I were talking to him about system mechanics, he pretty much was turned off by the "holding out of stuns". You know why he was turned off? It's obvious that you don't have to be a DOA player to know that holding out of stuns is one of the stupidest things. Being able to esacpe a stun is one thing, but holding out of a stun and turning the tide on the person creating the offense is stupid. Why should you the defender be rewarded for a possible good guess? Answer? YOU SHOULDN'T!!! You shouldn't have done something that got you stunned in the first place. Now you get to get rewarded? GTFO!!! Seriously......***points at door*** GTFO!!! And I'm not trying to be mean or anything but every time I see someone say "it's what makes DOA unique", I LAUGH! Seriously, I'm laughing at you right now because you really don't know how silly you sound. It's also one of the things that makes DOA a joke to the other communities. Now you can say, "oh we don't care what other communities think, we're gonna play the game regardless, blah blah blah hocus pocus and all that jazz" but as my friend 16 Bit would say "Let's get serious here".

Another thing that turned him off is the lack of a throw breaking system. The fact that all command grabs are inescapable is laughable. DOA must be the only fighting game that doesn't have a real throw breaking system.

I'll tell you this, and to sound corny, but "I'M A FIGHTER!" I'm a very competitive person, and I love to travel to tournaments to compete against the best. I would especially love it if DOA5 turns out to be the great game that we're hoping for it to be that's going to make other communities take notice. Hell, I would even love for it to be featured at EVO again if that's the case. What more I would like is if all of these naysayers who have been making fun of the series for so long actually give the game a chance. And for this to happen, again being serious here, changes MUST be made. A LOT OF THEM!!!
 

Baron West

Member
I found your post brilliant, but why do you think that DOA won't enjoy a new pool of players in spite of this whole new context? A lot of non Xbox players are actually willing to step back into the ring to compete.

To be clear, DOA5 will definitely have a new pool of players playing the game.

Having new people playing the game, and having new people who are willing to support are tournament scene are not the same thing.

I don't think anyone doubts there will be new people playing when DOA5 drops. Casual players will likely flock to DOA5. Most of the players of any given fighting game are the casual players. However casual players do not hold tournaments. There may be a huge influx of people who are willing to play the game online and have online tournaments, but there is a decisive difference between online and offline tournaments.

The offline tournament experience is simply better. It's not just a matter of playing the game without lag, which is reason alone to attend. People who are willing to travel to show up to events are all obviously very passionate about the game. In addition, people offline are for the most part, pretty cool in person. All of the online bravado is gone and replaced with something more genuine and legit. On top of that they can be very helpful. Clearly there are exceptions but when you go to offline tourneys and play people, you stand to learn a lot more than you could just by playing online. But online vs offline is a different topic entirely.

DBZ Budokai 2 had a lots and lots of players. But there wasn't any tournament scene because they were all casual players. Whether or not a tournament scene exists won't make the casual players any difference. Most of the changes you hear the competitive players asking for won't make much of a difference for most casual players either, because they don't explore the engine that deeply. However it makes all the difference in the world to the competitive players.

You said that the Tekken community has never been amputated, but actually that's not true. A lot of the people who played TTT competitively stopped playing when Tekken 4 came out. The removal of characters, the new throw system, the nerfing of backdashing and sidestepping, awkward slopes, the emphasis on jabs, and the unfairness of the JFLS made a lot of Tag era players quit. Lots of us found ourselves playing Soul Calibur II instead. To be fair Tekken 4 on it's own merit is a great game. It was just a poor follow-up to Tekken Tag Tournament, and it's new mechanics alienated a lot of veterans. Many Tekken players lost interest during T4 and didn't come back until T5 and T5DR was released. Were there new players to T4? Absolutely. Enough that it still had a good tournament scene. But compared to the Tag era? No where near as many people playing. T4 lost more competitive players than DOA ever had.

The reason why T4 was able to manage during it's loss of players was because a lot of people who had been throwing tournaments beforehand continued to host tournaments. DOA doesn't have a lot of players who do that. I mentioned early about competitive players wanting to bring in other competitive players? Part of this is because competitive players will host tourneys for games that are popular enough, regardless of whether or not they can play them well. The term fighting game community is tossed around a lot, but it's a community because we usually hold tournaments for more than one game. And for a long time now, DOA hasn't graced monthlies or majors on any sort of regular basis.

Having new players is a given for DOA5. Having new players who are willing to host and attend tournaments is not.

Ideally a casual player who is confident in their skill will decide to attend a tourney. They go to a site such as Freestepdodge and see a tournament coming up. Maybe they feel up to traveling a good distance, or perhaps they happen to be local. They go to the tourney, they have fun, they improve their game, AND they get an idea of how to host tournaments themselves. They host their own tournament, and thus the cycle continues. However this doesn't happen when no one is holding tournaments. Casuals, despite all their charm don't hold tournaments. At best they have gatherings with a few friends. This is why a new influx of casual players doesn't seem promising to competitive players.
 

virtuaPAI

I must say Thank You all!!!
Staff member
Administrator
At the end of the day, Doa5 will not have the same problems that plagued Doa4, and that being a terrible shitty ass fighter that died before it could even die. As we do know now, It is not the game that we all want, but it will be a game that is actually playable with the possibilities of it being a good tournament fighter. All of this arguing is foolish and we should be focusing and having the mind set of being tournament Ready. I am already prepared to break the game down and find the most abusable setups.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
...but it will be a game that is actually playable with the possibilities of it being a good tournament fighter.

I disagree. We don't know that at all, especially since the game keeps changing... and not necessarily for the better.

The Alpha demo was not playable and did not have the possibility of being a good tournament fighter. The E3 build was better but only playable as Bayman and Sarah. We've seen changes since then that push the game back into DOA4 territory.

We don't know anything right now and to say that we do is foolish.

All of this arguing is foolish and we should be focusing and having the mind set of being tournament Ready. I am already prepared to break the game down and find the most abusable setups.

I don't need to "prepare" myself to break a game down. And I don't think there's any reason to be "tournament ready" when outside of Hubbs tournaments, there are no confirmed DOA majors post-release. Even if we see DOA5 at NEC (which is likely given Hubbs involvement), there's no reason to believe that more than 20 people will show at this point.
 

Skilletor

Active Member
Team Ninja took everything positive in DoA4 out right before release. I see absolutely no reason to give Team Ninja the benefit of the doubt with this game.
 

Russian-chiropractic19

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Team Ninja took everything positive in DoA4 out right before release. I see absolutely no reason to give Team Ninja the benefit of the doubt with this game.

Itagaki was the one that made those changes and he's gone now.Shimbori is in charge now and he actually plays fighters.
 

Gill Hustle

Well-Known Member
Gee is it possible in this post DOA4 world where patches and DLC being the norm that somehow if DOA isn't up to snuff, that it could be made whole?

I mean DOA 4 was supposed to be good until it got tweaked so can't the same thing happen for the better later?

I know people are passionate about their opinions but I seemed to miss the time when people were excited about the E3 build to DOA5 being a total failure before it's even gone gold :confused:
 

Blackula

Active Member
Gee is it possible in this post DOA4 world where patches and DLC being the norm that somehow if DOA isn't up to snuff, that it could be made whole?

I mean DOA 4 was supposed to be good until it got tweaked so can't the same thing happen for the better later?

I know people are passionate about their opinions but I seemed to miss the time when people were excited about the E3 build to DOA5 being a total failure before it's even gone gold :confused:

But here's the thing. They released one patch and one patch only for DOA4 and never again did they do another patch. It just seems that we all just don't want history to repeat itself. Get all excited and then be let down in the end. I'm really really hoping that everything will turn out fine in the end.

If things actually do not end up like we want it in the end, how willing will TN be to release balance patches?
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
I know people are passionate about their opinions but I seemed to miss the time when people were excited about the E3 build to DOA5 being a total failure before it's even gone gold :confused:

From the build I played just before E3 to the current videos we've seen, nothing new has been added that we can see, but several positive things have been taken away.

While I feel that we do not have enough information to say if the current build of the game is better than the E3 build, we do at least know some things have been removed. Couple that with how the development of DOA4 ended, and I think we have reason to express concern.

Plus, I'd much rather express concern and be 100% wrong about my fears, rather than not say anything and get a game we don't want to play at tournaments.
 

UnD34D

Active Member
But here's the thing. They released one patch and one patch only for DOA4 and never again did they do another patch. It just seems that we all just don't want history to repeat itself. Get all excited and then be let down in the end. I'm really really hoping that everything will turn out fine in the end.

If things actually do not end up like we want it in the end, how willing will TN be to release balance patches?

Yeah I remember when patches were the norm back in DOA4. We were promised DLC, we were promised patches, and oh boy they were so fun. I just expect the same shit. I'm not gonna lie, I haven't looked into DOA5 to much already, but grapplers getting guaranteed frame advantage from someone breaking your throw? Fucking dumb.
 

Gill Hustle

Well-Known Member
But here's the thing. They released one patch and one patch only for DOA4 and never again did they do another patch. It just seems that we all just don't want history to repeat itself. Get all excited and then be let down in the end. I'm really really hoping that everything will turn out fine in the end.

If things actually do not end up like we want it in the end, how willing will TN be to release balance patches?


This is true, but that was a different time with a different producer who had his own ideas on how DOA should be played. Not to mention his own " internal issues " with Tecmo, being tied up with NG and DOAX franchises, and not being open to as much player *ahem* US player feedback.

Yeah I remember when patches were the norm back in DOA4. We were promised DLC, we were promised patches, and oh boy they were so fun. I just expect the same shit. I'm not gonna lie, I haven't looked into DOA5 to much already, but grapplers getting guaranteed frame advantage from someone breaking your throw? Fucking dumb.

Welcome back UnD34D!

Well maybe you knew some things I didn't but I'm guessing what I posted a sec ago had something to do with how DOA4 went.
 

UnD34D

Active Member
Welcome back UnD34D!

Well maybe you knew some things I didn't but I'm guessing what I posted a sec ago had something to do with how DOA4 went.

Hey Gill, thanks. Yeah, I remember TN/DOAC talking about all the awesome shit we could do with patches and DLC and then we got one patch, that most people didn't like, and that was all we got, despite every other game being released getting DLC and patches. I mean shit, I was playing Chrome Hounds, a game that most people probably don't even remember, and it got patches and DLC like crazy.
 

grap3fruitman

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Gee is it possible in this post DOA4 world where patches and DLC being the norm that somehow if DOA isn't up to snuff, that it could be made whole?
If DOA5 isn't solid on launch after ~1.5 years of development time, what chance does a patch one month later have?
 

Skilletor

Active Member
Itagaki was the one that made those changes and he's gone now.Shimbori is in charge now and he actually plays fighters.

From the build I played just before E3 to the current videos we've seen, nothing new has been added that we can see, but several positive things have been taken away.

Plus, I'd much rather express concern and be 100% wrong about my fears, rather than not say anything and get a game we don't want to play at tournaments.

Yeah, I'll go ahead and wait to see what happens. I don't think team ninja knows the type of game they want. at best we are hoping their indecision leads to a competitive game.
 

virtuaPAI

I must say Thank You all!!!
Staff member
Administrator
I disagree. We don't know that at all, especially since the game keeps changing... and not necessarily for the better.

The Alpha demo was not playable and did not have the possibility of being a good tournament fighter. The E3 build was better but only playable as Bayman and Sarah. We've seen changes since then that push the game back into DOA4 territory.

We don't know anything right now and to say that we do is foolish.
-That is fine that you disagree, I however see the glass more than half full with all of the info that I was both able to test myself, and witness. I have played a Doa with the tools available in the Builds that were presented to the community, so I have an understanding to how those elements will factor into tournament play.

I don't need to "prepare" myself to break a game down. And I don't think there's any reason to be "tournament ready" when outside of Hubbs tournaments, there are no confirmed DOA majors post-release. Even if we see DOA5 at NEC (which is likely given Hubbs involvement), there's no reason to believe that more than 20 people will show at this point.
-It is wonderful that you do not need to prepare yourself. I was making a generalized statement and not one only directed towards you. There are players who are too busy arguing, than prepping themselves to see what the game actually have in store than having such a gloomy pessimistic view. The game is not Doa4, so no player need to make it as such. It should be noted that I used "tournament ready" as it implies that players will be breaking down the game to find effective and efficient solid strats for competitive play.
 

Skilletor

Active Member
DoA4 wasn't DoA4 until close to release. This game, obviously, is in constant flux and has a divided userbase that are at odds with one another. Team Ninja does not deserve the benefit of the doubt here.
 
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