DOA: Flaws and Tournament Viability

[Matt Ponton]

Trust, I will be moving on, VF:FS is nice as shit. A shot it will be given, I personally will be at several tournaments this year, 3 to be exact. It doesn't take long to find out if a game is good or not on a competitive standpoint. Come the 2nd Quarter of next year, if I am playing DOA4 with no signs of it changing.

I am gone.

You should have seen SF3. It died in the US because everyone thought "parrying is stupid". The Japanese kept at it though and 5 years later you got:

All of a sudden, America was getting bodied by the Japanese hard at this game Americans said was "scrubby". Next thing you know, a resurgence came out to revitalize the game for years. Now, there are still people playing the hell out of the game to where it even got an HD re-release.

 

[Allan Paris]

Well, seeing as the US is the one and only major country to play DOA. I don't think this will be our case, though it is a very valid counter argument to what I said. Given DOA's simplistic nature I doubt it will take us 5 years to figure it out. If by some means it does, I'll be back around in 2018, maybe.

 

[d3v]

I don't think breaking throws is at all difficult in Capcom games.

Only if your experience is SFIV. It's much harder in the older games, especially those with 1 button throws. Also, no crouch teching in those.

 

[Skilletor]

Only if your experience is SFIV. It's much harder in the older games, especially those with 1 button throws. Also, no crouch teching in those.

I've been playing SF since 2. I think it's easy to tech throws, especially those with 1 button throws.

I actually have more trouble teching grabs in SF4/SxT than any other 2D fighter. But then again, nothing about SF4 feels right to me.

 

[R4712-VR88]

I know that might be hard to answer, but since they are doing balance vids, is it possible that this was done just for that purpose?

Here's hope. :/

I know they've really been messing with the game and making tons of changes. I really hope they do hear us out while they still have time. If Team NINJA really, REALLY says they want to listen to the hardcore players then they better be reading these forums word for word.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I've been playing SF since 2. I think it's easy to tech throws, especially those with 1 button throws.

I actually have more trouble teching grabs in SF4/SxT than any other 2D fighter. But then again, nothing about SF4 feels right to me.

You say that, but in SF2, you couldn't 'tech' throws but 'soften' them, and you'd take all the damage before gaining the life you softened. So you still lost life even if you teched, and you couldn't tech if the throw would kill you.

 

[Skilletor]

You say that, but in SF2, you couldn't 'tech' throws but 'soften' them, and you'd take all the damage before gaining the life you softened. So you still lost life even if you teched, and you couldn't tech if the throw would kill you.

I am aware. I was commenting on d3v saying, "Only if SF4 is your experience."

And actually, you couldn't tech throws at all in SF2. It wasn't until ST that you could do that. Since we're being pedantic.

 

[UnD34D]

I am aware. I was commenting on d3v saying, "Only if SF4 is your experience."

And actually, you couldn't tech throws at all in SF2. It wasn't until ST that you could do that. Since we're being pedantic.

I find your meatloaf shallow and pedantic.

 

[Skilletor]

I laughed.

<3 Family Guy

 

[MasterHavik]

Based on the E3 build and videos we've seen since...

- Guessing is still heavily favored on offense and defense.
- Counterholds are still very, very prominent during stun. The changes have a bigger impact on the neutral game.
- The defender still gets a chance to flip the situation after making a mistake.
- Stuns are still too heavily present.
- 90% of the attacks in the game are unsafe.
- Strings can still be delayed massively.
- It's still impossible to see a free cancel, giving the offensive player a sense of false frame advantage.

That's a quick and dirty list, and some of those issues are more important than others, but you get the idea.

Um....let me response.

-Guessing is still favored? Did you know in DOAD that holds do less dmg and sit down stuns were nerf. It's so easy my friend. All they have to do is nerf the damage holds can do. This deters players from spamming them and makes blocking a better option.

- See my first point.

- How can the defender flip things in their favor if you nerf holds and make special holds harder to do.

-90% percent of attacks are unsafe? WTF? That's weird..they better fix that.

-How is that a problem? Seems like a good thing. It will even make holds even more worthless if you can delay your sting.

-How is it impossbile to not see a free cancel? I mean you can't see some cancel their move. It seems some got blown up by Cdjr's Jax in MK9 too much with those whiffs gps.

Overall, I think you're being too hard on the game and not really realizing how simple the changes have to be to make the game evo worthy.

 

[d3v]

I am aware. I was commenting on d3v saying, "Only if SF4 is your experience."

And actually, you couldn't tech throws at all in SF2. It wasn't until ST that you could do that. Since we're being pedantic.

If we're being pedantic, ST has "throw softening" where you regained some life lost. This also meant that you could get thrown, die and still soften the throw - you'd get the animation, but would still die at the end.

 

[Codemaster92163]

A bit of unsafe strings makes sense to me. Not 90% of strings, but quite a few. I believe it encourages mix-up so people don't continually try to get in using the same old move over and over, allowing the defender (who was wise to defend) a chance to gain the offensive without having to spam counters.

I don't consider it punishing offensive players (since I play full on offense myself), but rather forcing those players to think about what they are doing.

 

[Raansu]

Um....let me response.

-Guessing is still favored? Did you know in DOAD that holds do less dmg and sit down stuns were nerf. It's so easy my friend. All they have to do is nerf the damage holds can do. This deters players from spamming them and makes blocking a better option.

- See my first point.

- How can the defender flip things in their favor if you nerf holds and make special holds harder to do.

-90% percent of attacks are unsafe? WTF? That's weird..they better fix that.

-How is that a problem? Seems like a good thing. It will even make holds even more worthless if you can delay your sting.

-How is it impossbile to not see a free cancel? I mean you can't see some cancel their move. It seems some got blown up by Cdjr's Jax in MK9 too much with those whiffs gps.

Overall, I think you're being too hard on the game and not really realizing how simple the changes have to be to make the game evo worthy.

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[grap3fruitman]

Guessing is still favored? Did you know in DOAD that holds do less dmg and sit down stuns were nerf. It's so easy my friend. All they have to do is nerf the damage holds can do. This deters players from spamming them and makes blocking a better option.

Guessing isn't just about holds. DOA favors guessing in every single scenario. For example:

How is that a problem? Seems like a good thing. It will even make holds even more worthless if you can delay your sting.

String Delay: You can delay your strings for so long that this causes another huge guessing game. What do I mean? Take Ayane's and :Link: for instance. This is an example of a legitimate delay that causes a mind-game, right? What if you added that kind of delay to every single part of every single string? Now every single part of every single string is a guess. Now my head hurts from trying to guess so often.

Couple in the fact that now your character's strings have different hit parts with different levels in the middle and end of your strings. Now besides timing I have this huge delayed guessing game together with this hit level guessing game. Now I'm having a brain aneurysm from trying to guess on top of my guessing.

In any other game, and even in older DOA games, this kind of delay isn't possible and I could've reacted appropriately to the attack since I'm not afraid of there being a super delayed follow-up hit. Now do you understand why DOA's gameplay basically boils down to "wait for string to finish, throw punish, rinse, repeat?"

How is it impossbile to not see a free cancel? I mean you can't see some cancel their move.

Did my opponent free cancel or is just delaying his/her string? I can't tell and this just causes another guessing game that's kind of similar to the item I just described above.

How can the defender flip things in their favor if you nerf holds and make special holds harder to do.

You already lost on defense, that's why you got hit. Why do you get a "Get of Jail Free" card for every single hit in DOA? Why do I want to attack you if a successful attack doesn't mean anything since you can always escape it?

Overall, I think you're being too hard on the game and not really realizing how simple the changes have to be to make the game evo worthy.

He's not being too hard on the game. These are the same items that have held DOA back from being a competent fighter and they're still present in DOA5. If you don't understand history, you're going to repeat it, right? Well this seems like a case of deja vu to me.

 

[Berzerk!]

I call nonsense on string delay being called out as the reason DOA is not considered a competent fighter. Its the perception of the hold system, but lets address the minor items on the flaws list.

String delay is a good, viable part of the game - its a great measure for controlling your attacks and works around the counter system. It's not as guessing based in real terms as people say because if you know the character attacking you, you KNOW their delayable options and what comes next in a string. Its not actually that practical to delay each part and it does NOT in a practical sense greatly increase any guessing because their option for delaying is to still go for the next part of the string, or cancel, and be at neutral. If the go for throw you can still fuzzy, or attack and beat them out instantly. So just blocking beats delays and counterpoking beats tick throw attempts. It's not THAT much of a mind game. Ultimately if you watch your opponent and notice they delay a lot, you can beat them out, or actually counter them more effectively. It's in practice an occasional-use tool and a fun one at that. The real issue is whether early parts of strings cause stun.

Sure, you could tighten the strings, and make the earlier part of the strings safer, for the same effect, for a similar feel to other games, like VF. Don't be fooled, VF has delays as well. Yes, they are tighter. Yes, DOA can continue to follow VF's example. I'm a VF, player, I'm fine with that.

But lets not throw up these things as major problems when the reality is, so many things in the game have changed that things like string delay have been recontextualised. You will have to reconsider them in the new system.

Overall there is not a great deal of point being hung up on delays and free cancels as they are valid staples of the 3D fighting genre and work for the system.

What is perceived as a problem with them is actually back to the stun system, and you have to be honest, the stun system HAS improved. Just because it is still there doesn't mean it is the same. Counters are there and they have changed. With a raft of adjustments to existing mechanics and brand new mechanics like Critical Bursts and more neutral launchers to take into account, the game has changed significantly.

I don't claim to know the full effect of these changes, but neither can many of the people here who seem so certain delays and cancels and holds (in stun) are bad in principle.

No, they are not - they are part of a mix of game mechanics that adds to a whole system that can be balanced.

Lets look at reality and see that Team Ninja have taken significant steps to adjust these interrelated systems in order to make the game more solid and competitive, and added critical burst to give you a strong, powerful goal in your attacks to reach. They have kept the feel of DOA which includes all of these things. So they are not going to go away.

If one is to boil it down, the most reasonable item on the "flaws" list is any ability to escape the key stuns such as sit-down and Critical Burst. They've adjusted the system and provided these tools so players can work they way to a reward. Delays, cancels, and holds have all been adjusted (and can easily be readjusted, its just frame data).

But the main thing I see on the list is the ability to shake out of stuns (or that shaking is faster than a CB or other key follow up). If they ensure there are strong setups for players to find, the game will be solid and these other items will remain interesting and valid parts of the toolset.

 

[MasterHavik]

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Cute good sir. That's really cute.

I call nonsense on string delay being called out as the reason DOA is not considered a competent fighter. Its the perception of the hold system, but lets address the minor items on the flaws list.

String delay is a good, viable part of the game - its a great measure for controlling your attacks and works around the counter system. It's not as guessing based in real terms as people say because if you know the character attacking you, you KNOW their delayable options and what comes next in a string. Its not actually that practical to delay each part and it does NOT in a practical sense greatly increase any guessing because their option for delaying is to still go for the next part of the string, or cancel, and be at neutral. If the go for throw you can still fuzzy, or attack and beat them out instantly. So just blocking beats delays and counterpoking beats tick throw attempts. It's not THAT much of a mind game. Ultimately if you watch your opponent and notice they delay a lot, you can beat them out, or actually counter them more effectively. It's in practice an occasional-use tool and a fun one at that. The real issue is whether early parts of strings cause stun.

Sure, you could tighten the strings, and make the earlier part of the strings safer, for the same effect, for a similar feel to other games, like VF. Don't be fooled, VF has delays as well. Yes, they are tighter. Yes, DOA can continue to follow VF's example. I'm a VF, player, I'm fine with that.

But lets not throw up these things as major problems when the reality is, so many things in the game have changed that things like string delay have been recontextualised. You will have to reconsider them in the new system.

Overall there is not a great deal of point being hung up on delays and free cancels as they are valid staples of the 3D fighting genre and work for the system.

What is perceived as a problem with them is actually back to the stun system, and you have to be honest, the stun system HAS improved. Just because it is still there doesn't mean it is the same. Counters are there and they have changed. With a raft of adjustments to existing mechanics and brand new mechanics like Critical Bursts and more neutral launchers to take into account, the game has changed significantly.

I don't claim to know the full effect of these changes, but neither can many of the people here who seem so certain delays and cancels and holds (in stun) are bad in principle.

No, they are not - they are part of a mix of game mechanics that adds to a whole system that can be balanced.

Lets look at reality and see that Team Ninja have taken significant steps to adjust these interrelated systems in order to make the game more solid and competitive, and added critical burst to give you a strong, powerful goal in your attacks to reach. They have kept the feel of DOA which includes all of these things. So they are not going to go away.

If one is to boil it down, the most reasonable item on the "flaws" list is any ability to escape the key stuns such as sit-down and Critical Burst. They've adjusted the system and provided these tools so players can work they way to a reward. Delays, cancels, and holds have all been adjusted (and can easily be readjusted, its just frame data).

But the main thing I see on the list is the ability to shake out of stuns (or that shaking is faster than a CB or other key follow up). If they ensure there are strong setups for players to find, the game will be solid and these other items will remain interesting and valid parts of the toolset.

This....I'll say it again..I think you guys are being too hard on the game and it's not even out yet. So relax for god's sake. I mean all your opinions are coming from an outdated build that has been updated since then. I remember talking to some guys on Doaworld saying grapples will be op in DOA 5. What happens? DOA 5 balance test videos come out and I quite possibly see a game that can be at EVO in a heartbeat. Why? Well they showed off Tina and Bayman. Two characters people were saying cloud be op or really good. What I say was that TN adjusted their normals and I also notice it seems you have to work for your throws now. It wasn't as free as before. Both characters had to take risk with some of their setups. So what I got from that video is that this game isn't 50/50. It seems we have to use our brains more. But at the end of the day, I just want to make sure every character take advantage of the new features in the game. Not only that, I want holds to take a serious beaten by the nerf bat damage wise. Besides that, I think DOA 5 is fine.

 

[Jefffcore]

You can just crush the high kick from Ayane's 4PK, it doesn't matter how long it's delayed. If they delay the low 1p will stop that, too.

A better example would with multiple follow ups with at least one mid. Jann Lee's P2P(P),(K),(2K), or Hayate's PP(P),(2KP),(2KK)

 

[DriftSlave]

as soon as I seen Doaworld, your post lost all credibility....enough though some of us go on there and post, you really can't take anyone serious there....

 

[Dr. Teeth]

This....I'll say it again..I think you guys are being too hard on the game and it's not even out yet. So relax for god's sake. I mean all your opinions are coming from an outdated build that has been updated since then. I remember talking to some guys on Doaworld saying grapples will be op in DOA 5. What happens? DOA 5 balance test videos come out and I quite possibly see a game that can be at EVO in a heartbeat. Why? Well they showed off Tina and Bayman. Two characters people were saying cloud be op or really good. What I say was that TN adjusted their normals and I also notice it seems you have to work for your throws now. It wasn't as free as before. Both characters had to take risk with some of their setups. So what I got from that video is that this game isn't 50/50. It seems we have to use our brains more. But at the end of the day, I just want to make sure every character take advantage of the new features in the game. Not only that, I want holds to take a serious beaten by the nerf bat damage wise. Besides that, I think DOA 5 is fine.

I'm not trying to come off as a dick, but I seriously got a headache from trying to understand this post. Based on what I think it says, you believe that DOA 5, in its present form, "can be at EVO in a heartbeat" because Tina and Bayman have to set up their throws? If so, that's a pretty weak argument. You also said that some people are being too hard on the game and it's not even out, yet you said that the same game is EVO worthy in its present state. That doesn't really make sense to me either since that goes both ways. I'm not trying to be negative, but no one can say the game is EVO worthy until they at least play it, and saying that it looked solid in a couple of balance test videos and that that is a good enough reason is a little silly.

 

[virtuaPAI]

You can just crush the high kick from Ayane's 4PK, it doesn't matter how long it's delayed. If they delay the low 1p will stop that, too.

A better example would with multiple follow ups with at least one mid. Jann Lee's P2P(P),(K),(2K), or Hayate's PP(P),(2KP),(2KK)

-Is it just me, But I see delaying and free cancels as taking a risk. Any and every time you delay your attack, you are susceptible to getting hit with . Once players have string recognition and its flow chart, it will be easier to recognize when you are capable of punishing certain segments of the string.

-You know what would be nice, if Team Ninja brought back the properties from Doa2-3. It was very nice to use it as an interrupt. It was not as strong as VF's but it was still effective.

 

[Baron West]

Delaying strings never struck me as a problem. It's just the stun system, and the fact that virtually everything is throw punishable.