Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
I know right? I LIVE in Vegas, so it's like another day for me when I see women that are nearly stripper level on the street lol.
DOA5 and Sexualization: Too Much?
- Thread starter werewolfgold
- Start date
I know right? I LIVE in Vegas, so it's like another day for me when I see women that are nearly stripper level on the street lol.
Number 13
Well-Known Member
Personally I find the "sexy" and costume fetishes pretty tame (although I got a good laugh with how random that towel pack was) especially for a series like DoA which got famous (or infamous depending on perspective) for revolutionizing "sexy" in fighting games, but that is probably because I'm not strictly judging with the Western society standard since I've seen my fair share of various Japanese media/game thus expanding my viewpoint horizons.
Then we have to open another nasty can of worms with the whole "what is sexy" subjective mess which can vary greatly from person to person which is pretty much why fetishes are a thing. You know Ralph considers Marie Rose disgusting pedo bait while Albert digs legal petite women that kind of thing and that is one of the more tame ways to explain it.
This is all a classic case of culture shock. The way Japan roared their approval about a Marie Rose Gravure video where you see a petite flat girl in swimwear being silly in the beach is the same way mainstream Merica got hyped when shown the Mortal Kombat X Fatalities where decapitations, gore, limb dismemberment, and all that good shit was shown off.
Then both criticizes violence or sex entertainment respectively due to their society standards that thinks the other is insane for embracing it. You know people have different tastes for entertainment whether it's cheesecake or mindless violence yada yada yada. I'm not gonna even bother going into the hypocritical nature of it all from both cultures since this isn't the place to explain in depth about all that.
My point is the issue isn't the existing outfits themselves [at least to me], but more about how it takes away from other potential outfits being made since time/resources are not infinite. Particularly for the male characters that get the short end of the stick unless your maybe Hayabusa.
I mean how many swimsuit packs did we get since DoA 5 dropped? I understand why the females get the MVP treatment since sex sells especially in Japan and the developers made it a point by trying to hit the widest audience demographic with the various fetish dlc outfits and even throwing in a gothic loli, Kasumi with a hoody, and a winged busty kimono babe as fighting game characters for DoA 5U post release paid dlc. I mean for christ sake even a Senran Kagura collaboration was even teased. What I (and I imagine many of you here too) would like for them is to balance the scale a bit so males get some love besides on Halloween and Christmas.
What I also understand is me telling them to make a male costume for Ein for example is time taken away from making a costume for Kasumi showing off her thong. I would essentially be telling them to make less money to appease their niche audience such as myself that isn't 100% into cheesecake (aka their main consumer demographic) like the other gamers.
Unless I can convince them selling an Ein costume would at least perform in par with Kasumi with a thong they will not listen from a business perspective. Which makes this whole argument pointless. I could refuse to buy the Kasumi in thong outfit, but at least 10 other consumers would gladly pay instead for each disgrunted consumer. This is only talking about the costume inequality lol.
This isn't even considering Japan yet I mean just look at the DoA GameFaqs forum lol you see people boasting about the amount of money they spend on the female outfits, requests for further fetish outfits, and disappointment with Cyber Raidou being a thing instead of another lady.
TLDR: Current sexualization is fine. Male/Female costume distribution is not which is ironic since the male/female character roster distribution is give/take 50/50 ratio which is better then most fighters that are either mostly men/female fighters in their selection screen.
This won't change drastically anytime soon despite a few optimist hopes no matter how loud the competitive community yells unless profits from giving Kasumi or Marie Rose a fetish costume fails to print $$$ or someone somehow convinces the developers by "showing them the light".
Buisness 101 supply and demand. DoA found their golden goose using female sexualization to build a dedicated fanbase while MK used violence. Only difference was the delivery. DoA will "reduce" the "sexy" when MK decides to "reduce" the "blood" and if anything they will keep pushing the border. /rant
Then we have to open another nasty can of worms with the whole "what is sexy" subjective mess which can vary greatly from person to person which is pretty much why fetishes are a thing. You know Ralph considers Marie Rose disgusting pedo bait while Albert digs legal petite women that kind of thing and that is one of the more tame ways to explain it.
This is all a classic case of culture shock. The way Japan roared their approval about a Marie Rose Gravure video where you see a petite flat girl in swimwear being silly in the beach is the same way mainstream Merica got hyped when shown the Mortal Kombat X Fatalities where decapitations, gore, limb dismemberment, and all that good shit was shown off.
Then both criticizes violence or sex entertainment respectively due to their society standards that thinks the other is insane for embracing it. You know people have different tastes for entertainment whether it's cheesecake or mindless violence yada yada yada. I'm not gonna even bother going into the hypocritical nature of it all from both cultures since this isn't the place to explain in depth about all that.
My point is the issue isn't the existing outfits themselves [at least to me], but more about how it takes away from other potential outfits being made since time/resources are not infinite. Particularly for the male characters that get the short end of the stick unless your maybe Hayabusa.
I mean how many swimsuit packs did we get since DoA 5 dropped? I understand why the females get the MVP treatment since sex sells especially in Japan and the developers made it a point by trying to hit the widest audience demographic with the various fetish dlc outfits and even throwing in a gothic loli, Kasumi with a hoody, and a winged busty kimono babe as fighting game characters for DoA 5U post release paid dlc. I mean for christ sake even a Senran Kagura collaboration was even teased. What I (and I imagine many of you here too) would like for them is to balance the scale a bit so males get some love besides on Halloween and Christmas.
What I also understand is me telling them to make a male costume for Ein for example is time taken away from making a costume for Kasumi showing off her thong. I would essentially be telling them to make less money to appease their niche audience such as myself that isn't 100% into cheesecake (aka their main consumer demographic) like the other gamers.
Unless I can convince them selling an Ein costume would at least perform in par with Kasumi with a thong they will not listen from a business perspective. Which makes this whole argument pointless. I could refuse to buy the Kasumi in thong outfit, but at least 10 other consumers would gladly pay instead for each disgrunted consumer. This is only talking about the costume inequality lol.
This isn't even considering Japan yet I mean just look at the DoA GameFaqs forum lol you see people boasting about the amount of money they spend on the female outfits, requests for further fetish outfits, and disappointment with Cyber Raidou being a thing instead of another lady.
TLDR: Current sexualization is fine. Male/Female costume distribution is not which is ironic since the male/female character roster distribution is give/take 50/50 ratio which is better then most fighters that are either mostly men/female fighters in their selection screen.
This won't change drastically anytime soon despite a few optimist hopes no matter how loud the competitive community yells unless profits from giving Kasumi or Marie Rose a fetish costume fails to print $$$ or someone somehow convinces the developers by "showing them the light".
Buisness 101 supply and demand. DoA found their golden goose using female sexualization to build a dedicated fanbase while MK used violence. Only difference was the delivery. DoA will "reduce" the "sexy" when MK decides to "reduce" the "blood" and if anything they will keep pushing the border. /rant
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Imagine if DOA was taken seriously and wasn't looked down upon and made fun of for it's sexualization hahaha wouldn't that be a dream come true imagine if TN cared more about gameplay balance rather than "which hentai outfit can we rip off this time" fuck
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
Personally, I think that everytime this game tries to get more serious, something stupid brings it back to being a joke. Hear me out.
I started playing DOA with DOA5U, and I actually like the game play, and think they made a good effort to make the fighting a little more serious, as well, with the 'I'm a fighter' branding and improved combat. The sexy costumes didn't really hurt it in my opinion, as I don't think any costume is out of line.
Then with DOA5LR, there is a 'Underwear Selector" option at the start of every match, and with that, they just undid ALL of the credibilty it earned with DOA5U. That is SO STUPID and it had me cracking up when I first saw the screenshots.
I started playing DOA with DOA5U, and I actually like the game play, and think they made a good effort to make the fighting a little more serious, as well, with the 'I'm a fighter' branding and improved combat. The sexy costumes didn't really hurt it in my opinion, as I don't think any costume is out of line.
Then with DOA5LR, there is a 'Underwear Selector" option at the start of every match, and with that, they just undid ALL of the credibilty it earned with DOA5U. That is SO STUPID and it had me cracking up when I first saw the screenshots.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
You've been able to select underwear since 5 vanilla in 2012. Its always been there, it just wasn't labeled till last round cleaned up customization in char select, same with all the other toggle options.
UncleBiscuits79
Active Member
I knew that, but it just seems a little hilarious to have an actual option for it. As I said, it's like the game is trying to not be taken seriously, but hey that's just me. I still like the game.
Malfury
Active Member
Yeah... VF tried that and look where it is now? It's not the sexualization, it's in every game. It's the complexity. Pretty sure alot of people complained about the counter and stun system in this game, which means more guessing. I know it was a huge pain for me in DOA2 on Dreamcast, those counters hurt like fuck.
VF was hurt by the outdated graphics. However, VF can still be brought back if the characters didn't look so rigid and plastic looking but still keeping the complexity. Most people won't even try that game because it just looks so cheap. Not to mention that most VF games lacks a honorable story mode, which kills it even more.
Usually from what I see, most people that complain about the counter system are either 1) New to the game or 2) Players from another game play games like Tekken trying out DOA. Most cases, whenever I hear about holds complaint and how the stun system is.. it's usually players from another game because they are too adapted to the other fighting game's mechanic.
They need to keep the complexity in VF because you don't want an easy game either. It's definitely not as fun if the reward is simple and easy hitting a couple buttons, that's too mindless. VF's issue is that you really need to sit down and play that game religiously to learn..but that's difficult alone when you are looking at the game graphically too..which is pretty hard to see with your eyes. Of course, I would be speaking as of right *now* but when you look at it around VF's first release people thought the graphics were good. Now when DOA players try that, they'll notice the game is hard and the graphics makes their eye twitch because they are so used to the models from this game as an example. Appeal can have some affect to it too...but don't stray too far off from the game's aspect. Right now, imho...the only way VF can draw players in..is if they have appealing graphics with an honest story mode to boot while keeping the mechanic behind it.
Usually from what I see, most people that complain about the counter system are either 1) New to the game or 2) Players from another game play games like Tekken trying out DOA. Most cases, whenever I hear about holds complaint and how the stun system is.. it's usually players from another game because they are too adapted to the other fighting game's mechanic.
They need to keep the complexity in VF because you don't want an easy game either. It's definitely not as fun if the reward is simple and easy hitting a couple buttons, that's too mindless. VF's issue is that you really need to sit down and play that game religiously to learn..but that's difficult alone when you are looking at the game graphically too..which is pretty hard to see with your eyes. Of course, I would be speaking as of right *now* but when you look at it around VF's first release people thought the graphics were good. Now when DOA players try that, they'll notice the game is hard and the graphics makes their eye twitch because they are so used to the models from this game as an example. Appeal can have some affect to it too...but don't stray too far off from the game's aspect. Right now, imho...the only way VF can draw players in..is if they have appealing graphics with an honest story mode to boot while keeping the mechanic behind it.
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Aven Kujo-Gin
Well-Known Member
@Intelligent Alpha @oMASTER LEGENDo I dunno what you're talking about but it doesn't even seem tangentially related to anything. Cut it out.
Alright, I guess I can throw my hat in the ring now. Be forewarned. This is just me venting off the cuff so may contain salty language.
Over time, I've seen a lot of things coming out of Japan. And the more I payed attention, the more "shovelware" I noticed. It just seems like all of these manga, anime, visual novels, etc. just recycle the same characters repeatedly while changing the story slightly. And every anime season, there's, like, 12 harem anime. All with the same busty (and one flat-chested), doe-eyed, tropes fawning over the same lame, wish-fulfillment protagonist who doesn't even matter because the focus is all on how much everyone's boobs jiggle and when the next hot springs episode is. Over and over and over and over and over and over. So, yeah, that stuff doesn't interest me. But, it just keeps happening and people keep buying it. Oh, look, panty shots! Yay!
Liking sexy things is fine. But for me, I need more than that. People never try to mix it up and create interesting characters anymore. I don't need wish-fulfillment fantasy. I want interesting characters. I want things that are at least well written. But, it's like the majority of people don't care about that. As long as it has sexy, moe, waifu bullshit with an assortment of huge tits with different hair colors in it to make figures of and put on the half-naked (or naked) dakimakura and someone gets groped and they can never get married now. Over and over and over. And it's hella shallow. But, all of these companies just seem to push it out there like that's what they have to put out. I'm not even convinced that they want to anymore. It's just how it industry goes as a routine or something. It feels like they're not even trying anymore. And I think it's because the public isn't even making them try. Lowest common denominator, right?
Now, taking it back for a sec, I came upon DOA1 back in 98 or so for the PSX when my neighbor brought it over. Yeah, I looked at the boobs and were like lolwtflewd, but it had a cool atmosphere. The music was cool, the backgrounds were cool, the danger zones were cool, and I enjoyed the various characters (all of them). I geeked the fuck out over some ninja teleporting in a whirlwind of leaves and made sure I did an Izuna drop with Hayabusa at least once a round. And it was game over when I unlocked Ayane. She was, like, sparkly and shit. And she had this crazy spinning style and this rocking orchestral theme. This game oozed coolness for me. It had bikinis and stuff, but that was cool, too.
The stages got cooler in 2 and I thought that the costumes were really cool looking. Some of them could be considered sexy, but they all seemed to embody the characters or were just cool concepts. I really wondered why there were only images of the girls in swimsuits in the CG gallery. That actually made me angry. It's not that I disliked the swimsuits. I just thought it was odd to only have that.
DOA3 just seemed to be just badass. Yeah, the sexiness was still there, but all of the characters just seemed really cool and varied. And then DOAX happened and well... I could allow it as a side game. But, then look at what happened in DOA4. Leifang in DOA3 was all protecting kids from thugs and then in DOA4 it's like, "Oh, my boobs are so big that my tight shirt tore open. Oh, goodness me. Please don't grope me, sir." In DOA3, Kasumi's running for her life and sad that she can't go home and in DOA4, it's all "I'mma topless, pop singing mermaid! Wheeee!!" And Hitomi's ending and...
At this point, I'm older and not as easily impressed. Things like Christie's ending didn't bother me, though. That's Christie being Christie. But, the most of the other stuff just seemed dumb. It had nothing to do with anything. It was just pandering for no reason. I want a reason. DOAX2 happened and that was just...ew. This is not cool anymore, guys.
So, DOA5 happens after all that time and they were like "Yeah, things got kind of ridiculous" and I'm like "Yes, they did. Glad you realized." I didn't take "toning it down" to mean "removing all sex appeal". Part of the coolness was it being sexy. Ninjas and explosions and flying cars and I'm like, "This is awesome. DOA is about to smack people in the face!" And then the Ayane vs. Hitomi video came out and suddenly fans were apparently like, "Why aren't their boobs bigger? MAKE THEM BIGGER DAMN IT! MOAR JIGGLE!!" And, I'm just like, "Are you plebes serious? Do you not see this hotness going on in front of your face? There are other things that make the game cool, you know? Jiggly boobs are only a small piece of the puzzle."
So, then they released the pre-order bikini pack. And, I said, fine. One set isn't gonna hurt anybody. And then, people found the super secret bikinis for Tina, Christie, and Lisa. And, I was like, sure. Work for your fanservice. And then the DLC started. And, then I was like, wait...something's wrong. And then it just kept getting worse. Ultimate came out, and they started making sure that you got good looks at the girls being vulnerable and panting in their character profile pictures. No. Bullshit. Being sexy is fine. Dumb pandering I can do without. But, it just didn't stop. The story mode was fine and took itself seriously. But, everything else surrounding the game became "Look at the hot, sweaty, women!" And then they were like, "We've got something that you've all been waiting for! GRAVURE VIDEOS!" Let's bring back Sixaxis jiggle!
Dafuq? And more bikinis, too. And it's never enough. People don't want anything more substantial than cheesecake. But, I'm gonna need something more substantial. What's the point in even having all these other features is all your going to promote is cheesecake? Yes, money is money. But, as game makers, you decide what type of game you want to create and how you want the game to be promoted. Sexy is more than just taking off your clothes. It's about attitude, too. Sometimes, subtlety goes a long way.
And now with maid outfits, nurses, etc. There's not even any personality in it anymore. Oh look, come to this fighting tournament. Oh, don't mind the fact that all of the girls are wearing towels.
What's the point? You're just mindless, waifu bullshit. Oh, look. A cute loli for no reason and no character development! Just like all the other shovelware. And people just throw all their money at it. Oh, look at how the softness engine makes the boobs look. I DON'T FUCKING CARE. And I kind of hate that so many people apparently are placated by it. Oh, if you want the full boob experience, you DEFINITELY need to go next-gen. Give me a break. If you want to just make a Japan only H-dating game filled with busty women and your blank, male protagonist, then do it. But, you decided to release a fighting game, worldwide. It should be about more than boobs. And you can't be neglecting half of your in-game fighters along the way. I want interesting characters, damn it. I want something deeper and less shallow. I don't need wish fulfillment.
That's enough of that. I'll post a more coherent, shorter, and technical post next time.
Argentus
Well-Known Member
Honestly it seems a lot less weird when you consider you are staring at their underwear half the time anyway because if the clothes physics. Its more weird to be able to select bras you can only see when soaking wet though.
This, so hard.
I just want to say, that it really did bother me today when a friend of mine was ogling an Ibuki Ayane mod in USF4 for PC. It was Ayane's signature purple dress and her gym uniform. He kept making these weird noises just because he could see the underwear and bra in the mod/costume. Like...that is just creepy. I didn't say that, because I figured he was joking, but it still was wrong. Yet, when he plays BlazBlue, his main game, he's not ogling the obviously fan service characters: Litchi, Makoto, Noel, etc. Why is it different for DOA? Yes, I may find the women attractive, but not to the point that I'm having fantasies and ogling them in their obviously fetish outfits. That's when you know the sexualization has gone TOO far, and most of the "sexy" fetish costumes are pretty tame.
Malfury
Active Member
I don't know man.. I've never experienced anyone having problems with any of these "sexualization" issues myself, so I never once thought it was a big deal to people. I don't see characters as humans or human-like at all, which is probably why I can't really feel any empathy towards the issue, I guess.
I know they're not REAL people, but it's still strange to me nonetheless. Maybe I just see it differently. Idk...
Aven Kujo-Gin
Well-Known Member
To be honest, I'm not one of those people who would be happy with just more costumes to the guys. Every male already have a lot of good costumes and I don't really need more(but they are always welcome btw)
About sexualitation... I don't really care so much as long as they are just a part of the DLC mountain. What annoys me about TN is the fact that they focus so much in sex sales and leave other parts about their fighting game behind. Such as more quotes, more quality for stages, the replay feature, better netcode, better balance, etc...
It seems that the money they got from the sexiest DLC is used mostly for making more content of this type and not for the quality of the game.
About sexualitation... I don't really care so much as long as they are just a part of the DLC mountain. What annoys me about TN is the fact that they focus so much in sex sales and leave other parts about their fighting game behind. Such as more quotes, more quality for stages, the replay feature, better netcode, better balance, etc...
It seems that the money they got from the sexiest DLC is used mostly for making more content of this type and not for the quality of the game.
Malfury
Active Member
I agree with you, but on the same coin, it seems like they used a good chunk of that money to develop DOA5:LR. Hopefully this will be a much better iteration, and they will listen to the fans more closely as far as what kind of things we want to see.
I'm just gonna put my two cents in and say that people don't respect DOA due to it's sexualization is because the first DOA game they probably heard of was DOAX. I know plenty of people who thought that DOAX was turned into a fighter, even though DOA had been one for the longest. I mean, within the FGC most people respect each other's game as a fighting game. Sure, some people may have generalizations of them, but it's still a fighting game with fighting mechanics. The only people I could see disrespecting DOA because of it's skimpy outfits and what-not are ignorant players. Then again, these would be the same people that would only see SF as a projectile spammer, or TEKKEN as a fighting game for try-hards/no lifes. Honestly, these sexual outfits are really just marketed towards the casual community, because I personally believe that most people on FSD couldn't care less if it had these outfits or not.
To make my point before I go off on a tangent, if you disrespect DOA because of costumes, then you're a douchebag.
To make my point before I go off on a tangent, if you disrespect DOA because of costumes, then you're a douchebag.
Malfury
Active Member
+1.
To me, and alot of people; what Hazard just said, it's all it really comes down to in general.
(douchebag part was a little much though, lol.)