DOA5: Mr. Wah goes over the Dead or Alive 5 Demo

UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Man, it's been more than a month that I keep telling you guys about VF's multi-directional throw escape system.

It's like on everyone's ignore list or something.

But seriously, for being the poor man's VF, DOA sure seems to be reluctant to include good mechanics from its cousin.

edit: What about Side Throws?
 

Master_Thespian

Active Member
I'd like to see:
Command throw escapes:
-Only works in non-guaranteed and non-hi counter throw situations.
-Input the last direction of the throw used against you.
-Only one escape input attempt recognized.

Hold escapes (When you are being struck or thrown, you have an opportunity to recover from your mistake. I think we should be able to escape from *some* holds):
-Only works against a opponent holding out of a stun and non-hi counter hold situations.
-Input the same hold level that was used against you.
-Only one escape input attempt accepted.
-Does not work against advanced counters.

Side hit and side throw situations (to take better advantage of the new sidestep and improved Free Step Dodge mechanics):
-At least two standing and crouching side throws per character (they wouldn't be left or right specific).
-Special side hit and side block animations that are more advantageous than hitting from the front.
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
I like your ideas except for the Hold escape. If you make a mistake you should pay for it, no way around it. They already fucked that up with DOA4.
 

Master_Thespian

Active Member
You made a mistake when you got thrown and we're advocating throw breaks.

You made a mistake when you got hit, but you can escape stuns with holds.

You made a mistake when you got knocked down, but you can tech roll.

I think under certain situations holds should allow us to escape. In fact, the only time I'm asking for them is if the opponent does a normal, non-hi counter hold while in stun...which they could only do once they themselves have already made a mistake.

Allowing people outs for fucking up is fine, so long as there are still guaranteed situations where they don't work, which I included in both my throw and hold escape proposals.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
I'd like to see:
Command throw escapes:
-Only works in non-guaranteed and non-hi counter throw situations.
-Input the last direction of the throw used against you.
-Only one escape input attempt recognized.

Hold escapes (When you are being struck or thrown, you have an opportunity to recover from your mistake. I think we should be able to escape from *some* holds):
-Only works against a opponent holding out of a stun and non-hi counter hold situations.
-Input the same hold level that was used against you.
-Only one escape input attempt accepted.
-Does not work against advanced counters.

Side hit and side throw situations (to take better advantage of the new sidestep and improved Free Step Dodge mechanics):
-At least two standing and crouching side throws per character (they wouldn't be left or right specific).
-Special side hit and side block animations that are more advantageous than hitting from the front.

Why not be able to buffer multiple throw breaks... like VF?

Also, I do not like the idea of escaping a hold. I'd rather Team Ninja adjust the hold system so we can completely ignore it (unholdable attacks) instead of giving yet another way to escape something. You'd end up with: Attack > Hold > Hold Escape, rinse, repeat. It would be dull...

I also don't care about side throws. I'd rather throws be far less important, not add more throws.
 

Master_Thespian

Active Member
Virtua Fighter doesn't even let you buffer multiple throw breaks anymore as of VF5FS. People don't just automatically land every hold, and they certainly wouldn't land every escape in most games. If you were constantly trying to buffer hold escapes, you couldn't run your offense. So plenty of holds would get through.

It sounds like you want to weaken throws and holds down so they can be as ineffective as they are in Tekken. I want them to bring balance to the triangle instead of shifting the inbalance to a section that suits my tastes more.
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
It sounds like you want to weaken throws and holds down so they can be as ineffective as they are in Tekken. I want them to bring balance to the triangle instead of shifting the imbalance to a section that suits my tastes more.

Throws in Tekken are fine, there's nothing wrong with them. Granted it's not often for them to connect in high level play, and most of them aren't very strong anyway, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are ineffective.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
Don't land often and weak sounds pretty ineffective to me.

When my back is to the wall and I want a quick position switch a throw break is exactly what I want to do that. That alone makes them very strong.

It sounds to me like you want a game that caters to the casuals. You want everything to have a use, and that's asking quite a lot. Even in past DOA games, you're only going to use a handful of your tools.

There's no reason to limit punishment to primarily throws. That automatically gives the advantage to the attacker and skews the risk/reward ratio. What strategic benefit would side throws add?
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
Don't land often and weak sounds pretty ineffective to me.

Well then in that case they could at least add or change some throws as inescapable and maybe beef them up a little bit, especially since 99.9% of the time the better option to punish something unsafe is to respond with an attack.
 

Master_Thespian

Active Member
It sounds to me like you want a game that caters to the casuals. You want everything to have a use, and that's asking quite a lot. Even in past DOA games, you're only going to use a handful of your tools.
What's wrong with that? If a mechanic or tool doesn't have a defined, effective purpose why is it in the game? You talk like limiting tools is a good thing. If that isn't dull, I don't know what is. I don't think every character should be equally good at all things. But I do think that the system should support characters playing in different playstyles. Tell me again how an attempt to reduce homogenization among characters styles and system mechanics is catering towards casuals?

The fact of the matter is they aren't going to make the game where strikes are the best solution in every situation for every character. You should just come to grips with that.

Well then in that case they could at least add or change some throws as inescapable and maybe beef them up a little bit, especially since 99.9% of the time the better option to punish something unsafe is to respond with an attack.
That's exactly the point. I don't want that kind of simplified, homogenized gameplay.
 

x Sypher x

Active Member
That's exactly the point. I don't want that kind of simplified, homogenized gameplay.

The Tekken fans seem to like that kind of "homo" play lol. But yeah I see what you mean. I like Tekken but it gets a little tedious doing the same things over and over and OVER again. That's why I favor DOA more because you have more options for both offense and defense.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
You can have a fighting game where (just about) everything has a use, but just don't expect to be able to/want to use all moves in every match, and don't be upset to see a small cluster of moves used much more often than others.

I'm going to be that broken record and say an example is the new VF5FS, where I couldn't find useless moves for any characters I played, but situations over a number of matches called for different things. The movesets have been streamlined so that you've got tools for most situations and multiple ways to set things up, but little redundancy. (Example, my main, Pai, lost a number of her additional counter hold moves that were replaced with handy midrange strikes that she needed. She didn't need more counters above her basics)

This will work for DOA too, as like VF, you can reliably do damage with a small section of the moves and close out a round, and then you can try doing those same things the next round and they may work, or you have other go-to moves.

Rounds are over so fast that often there just isn't time to try a lot of things in one round, so things play out in more varied ways over a number of rounds.

Of course, whenever there's an opportunity, people will use their old reliable combos or setups. That's what allows people to show individual flair in their playstyles and that's as ideal as it needs to be.
 

DrDogg

Well-Known Member
You can always tell the difference between a competitive player and a more casual player. The competitive players want defined options where there's always a best choice. The more casual players want a ton of choices and less repetition to make everything equal.
 

Master_Thespian

Active Member
I'm going to be that broken record and say an example is the new VF5FS, where I couldn't find useless moves for any characters I played, but situations over a number of matches called for different things.
But this is what I'm asking for. Wolf deals with situations differently than Pai, because his strengths and weaknesses are different and the system is designed in a way where grapplers and strikers can do well in the playstyles they were designed for.

You can always tell the difference between a competitive player and a more casual player. The competitive players want defined options where there's always a best choice. The more casual players want a ton of choices and less repetition to make everything equal.
You're all over the place.

I NEVER said I think there should be a ton of correct options for each given situation. I said I don't think the majority of situations should call for the *same* correct option. Which is what you want.

"He ducked? A combo should be the best option. I don't care what character I play."
"He whiffed? A combo should be the best option. I don't care what character I play."
"I stepped? A combo should be the best option. I don't care what character I play."
"I stunned him? A combo should be the best option. I don't care what character I play."

I think a more interesting game would be designed to have certain characters dealing with these situations in more individual ways and a system that supports that by allowing those options to be strong instead of pigeonholing every character into the same mold, which *is* what has happened with Tekken with the past few releases. You know, the way Virtua Fighter does things.

But sure, fail to make solid points in the discussion and resort to insulting the skill level of your opposition. GGs
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
Staff member
Administrator
Standard Donor
@DrDogg,

What Berserk is saying is that there may be a "best choice" in one match dependent on the style of player or character, and that there shouldn't be a "best choice" regardless of the style of player or character.

I think.
 

Ubersuntzu

New Member
You can always tell the difference between a competitive player and a more casual player. The competitive players want defined options where there's always a best choice. The more casual players want a ton of choices and less repetition to make everything equal.

That's an illogical argument. The competitive player doesn't need things simple and obvious unless they're not as competitive as they think they are, Mr. Internet Tough Guy.
 

Berzerk!

Well-Known Member
@Master Thespian: We appear to be in overall agreement.
@Mr Wah: I think so too :p

Yes, if I was to sum up the point, currently the game that is best of both worlds between tons of choices and selection of optimal choices, it is VF5FS.

DOA5, honestly, has a very good start at doing the same based on what we see in the demo.

I would like to think that small subsections of the game engine that they don't have time to iterate over many versions, like a throw break system, should just mimic VF5's as it's similar enough and it works.
 

Aion

Member
You can always tell the difference between a competitive player and a more casual player. The competitive players want defined options where there's always a best choice. The more casual players want a ton of choices and less repetition to make everything equal.

lol
 

Game Over

Well-Known Member
I'd say what the goal should be is to have various tools be uniquely strong or weak from character to character. How different characters in VF can respond to the same situation in uniquely different ways (based on their strengths) should serve as a solid example of this.

This doesn't mean a character can't have a multitude of options in a given situation, and this doesn't mean a game should revolve around limited set of options. Personally, I'd be more in support of having more options, since then, the extra element of playstyle becomes a more pronounced factor adding to the depth of a game.
 
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