DOA5U - Juggling and you

[TakedaZX]

This doesn't seem to be a subject that often gets talked about by itself. I made a previous topic awhile ago about DOA5U and bounds but not I just want to talk about the juggles as a whole.

It's obvious that for some characters juggling has become more difficult in DOA5, taking away some of the better launchers, refloats, and certain properties being introduced but not spread around. I want to talk about these aspects because no matter what way you look at it, the launchers and their juggles are your offensive guaranteed damage at all times. The stun game is what it is... but it will always lead to some sort of launcher which again, leads to your guaranteed juggle and damage

So lets take it one by one.

1. Stun to Launch System of DOAD
2. Hitboxes and Properties
3. Bounds, Ground Bounces + Aerial Bounds
4. Juggle Count Gravity Drop System

1. Stun to Launch System of DOAD

So I was thinking that often the stun to launch rewards aren't enough. Look at a character like, Kokoro for example. She's gifted with good safety and pressure. She's often going to counter blow or hi-counter blow her opponents but chances are she's not going to get the raw launch in those situations. DOAD had a system which basically worked as, if you land a hit on counter blow or hi-counter blow, and follow up with a launcher, you get the same height you would've if you simply did a counter blow launch or hi-counter blow launch. The reward for going through the stun game is better damage scaling on each single hit in the stun game and critical bursting into a more powerful launcher (Rig - TLC H+K, JL - 33[P], Kasumi - 236P, Ryu - 236P+K/Ongyoin P+K.

Is anyone against this system?

2. Hitboxes and Properties

It seems like a lot of hitboxes have been nerfed in this game as well as juggle properties. I remember a time when Hayate could 4P, BT 2P, 3K, 4K6K into 8P, PPP, 7K despite the fact that the opponent was damn near grazing the ground. I also remember a time when Helena could get a refloat off of some strings that went to her 2H+K, or when Kokoro could utilize her 6PP as an early refloat in the combo.

Maybe I'm wrong but by losing these properties were losing damage, and with that I can understand DOA5 Helena's damage being inferior to Hayate's or Ryu's. They aren't loaded with blender options off of every launch (though Ryu does havea better chance at it), but with the loss of forced techs wouldn't improving the juggle properties again for better and longer juggles (also more damaging) help out this guaranteed damage factor that everyone is so insistent about?

3. Bounds and Aerial Ground Bounces + Aerial Bounds

Personally I don't care for the new bounds. They're basically just launchers that give a strange situation. Frankly, I think that the bound state should give a special property to launchers allowing them to get relaunches from the bounded state so for example if Ryu goes for a 236P post CB, then follows up with 6KP (Aerial Bound), 3P+K... then 3P+K will cause a flipping relaunch allowing him to follow up with his BT P+KPP (no charge). Doing 6KP later in the juggle wouldn't mean he could still follow up with 3P+K, BT P+KPP because the farther into the combo the relaunch off the bound would push the opponent farther away/give less of a relaunch.

As for the regular bounds, they'd only work like launchers... so... I mean I don't care about them as long as the launcher properties change.

Anyone like this idea? It gives more versatility to the bounds...

4. Juggle Count Gravity Drop System

Maybe it was the issue of the hit boxes being decreased or whatever... but some juggles were lost over the transition. Anyway extending it by 1 or 2 hits before the gravity increases... who knows...

 

[Brute]

Honestly, I say make three launch heights for each launcher:

1) Regular NH (or stun/no launch, depending on move)
2) CH launch (or launch from stun)
3) Critical Burst launch (max height)

Reduce the stun frames so that slower launchers require deeper stuns, reduce the stun threshold so that you get CB easier and have to poke less, then tear out your juggle of choice against the appropriate weight-class. No need for a power launcher.

Anyway, that's me. Honestly I prefer to launch with the Shoho Izuna anyway, but I realize not all characters have that moves that are equally as awesome and legendary.

 

[Tenryuga]

I'm skeptical about the bounds as well. As Takeda stated unless they function as aerial bounds such as Jacky's axe kick or Kasumi's 9PK they are essentially launchers with a different visual effect.

Perhaps some bounds will allow for more damaging juggles early in the threshold but that doesn't change the fact that bounds function as launchers at the moment. I don't know if this was TN's goal but if it was it makes the bounds a pointless mechanic that otherwise could have been a way to extend juggle damage.

IMHO the idea of the threshold should be changed. As it stands right now they want you to work for launch height. IMO you shouldn't be working for launch height you should be working for additional damage. The reward for reaching certain points in the threshold would be CB into power blow etc.

Perhaps TN can even create moves or stuns that cause certain effects at certain points in the threshold like gaining unholdable properties or causing a different type of stun than when used earlier in the threshold. Otherwise let the players who want to capitalize off small setups and early launches do so. In the current DOA5 not every character has that luxury or has the tools to do that.

 

[RoboJoe]

The bounds are not pointless, they are there to act as launcher for moves that cannot be launchers due to the animation. This could mean things like guaranteed damage from mid range, which Heihachi may have been trying to show off in the Leon vs. Jann-Lee vid. Another possibility is a juggle from a low that causes bound status. I think more info on the bounds is needed before making a judgement call.

 

[TakedaZX]

The bounds are not pointless, they are there to act as launcher for moves that cannot be launchers due to the animation. This could mean things like guaranteed damage from mid range, which Heihachi may have been trying to show off in the Leon vs. Jann-Lee vid. Another possibility is a juggle from a low that causes bound status. I think more info on the bounds is needed before making a judgement call.

I apologize. You misunderstand my viewpoint of them. It's as you say, I see them just as launchers for moves that normally would not be able to "launch" because of their animations. I applaud idea this but the problem is there doesn't seem to be as much [versatility] in their post impact usage.

Depending on how they behave though I would like to see my idea on the properties of post bound moves and relaunchers explored to see how that effects the juggle game as a whole. Mix that with aerial bounds and more bounces and you've got a damage output being increased ten fold.

Then add the stun to launch reward deal and now the competitive players can be happy because you're only required to guess twice if you get a good stun, not including the raw launch factor which still = good damage because of the increases to the juggle game.

So in the end:

Comboers (Me) = Happy because we get a variety of new tools to mess around with and to create unique juggles.
Casual Players = Happy because they can do more unique eye candy super ground bounce scrape you off the ground back into the air juggles.
Competitive Players = Happy because they get good damage for their single guesses and double guesses. with better damage scaling still in place for characters that have to play that constant stun game instead of going stun stun stun launch, just get a good height.

@Ten, yea it sounds like a good idea I suppose, like for Hayate's 9P, on NH or CH it could be an ok stun, on HCH or the second hit in the stun game it could be the stun that guarantees 9PP, but on the 3rd/4th hit in the stun game, it could be a limbo stun into a guaranteed launch/cb depending on the situation I guess?

Is that what you mean?

That could also go in conjunction with the DOAD stun idea where if you catch someone on HCH, the unholdable stun becomes better (more + frames).

 

[TRI Mike]

Bounds will work like in VF5FS. I honestly don't understand how can anyone be against them. Also, we've discussed several times how reducing the threshold or having a DOA2/3 stun system would benefit the game. At this point, it doesn't really matter though. 5U is already finished but I guess we could do it for the sake of argument.

Compared to DOA4, I think the juggles are pretty good in 5, Characters like Tina and Leon required retarded height to air grab and now they have access to it anytime with any launch, just like Busa who got them for the first time in this game. And the rest of the cast seems to have a LOT of options for juggling. The problem aren't the juggles per se, it's what happens before them.

 

[ScattereDreams]

In terms of bounds, I agree with Joe we need more information before we can judge them. I like Team Ninja's route in terms of what they're doing with bounds. They're not restricting them to "juggle bounds" like VF and Tekken. I only hope they don't prove to be useless, which we can't say yet, I've seen Helena utilize her bound and get a refloat, and hopefully this is the case for everyone else.

In terms of the stun system, leave it be until DOA6. We had a discussion in the past about DOA's unique stun system, but many players were against it because players felt like matches would be over in a flash and that there was not adaption (yomi/meta game)

Hit boxes seem fine in DOA5. You said Kokoro's 6pp float was nerfed, which I don't was a good example considering she has 5k, 9p, and gained p+k as well as 6kp for refloats? Maybe I wasn't understanding that part.

 

[Tenryuga]

I'm just saying if I have a bound like Kasumis 4H+K why would I use that in stun over 33K or 3H+K deep in the threshold (Assuming what I get from 4H+K is 33P 2P 4PKK). Even then changing it from a sitdown stun into a bound just means its a 22i mid kick launcher. Unless it leads to more damage than my other mid kick launchers why would I use it in stun? I definitely see use for it as a whiff punisher though.

If its anything like Jacky's axe kick though that's a whole different story. Because then my juggle potential skyrockets.

@Takeda yeah that's what I meant. Just little tools like that to make pushing the threshold feel more rewarding than it is right now.

 

[TakedaZX]

Bounds will work like in VF5FS. I honestly don't understand how can anyone be against them. Also, we've discussed several times how reducing the threshold or having a DOA2/3 stun system would benefit the game. At this point, it doesn't really matter though. 5U is already finished but I guess we could do it for the sake of argument.

True enough the game is done. But you also misunderstand me, I'm not against them. I'm just saying another step could be taken to up their usability and uniqueness.

In terms of bounds, I agree with Joe we need more information before we can judge them. I like Team Ninja's route in terms of what they're doing with bounds. They're not restricting them to "juggle bounds" like VF and Tekken. I only hope they don't prove to be useless, which we can't say yet, I've seen Helena utilize her bound and get a refloat, and hopefully this is the case for everyone else..

Agreed.

In terms of the stun system, leave it be until DOA6. We had a discussion in the past about DOA's unique stun system, but many players were against it because players felt like matches would be over in a flash and that there was not adaption (yomi/meta game).

Fair enough, though I don't see how triple SD stun guaranteed CB like some people want is any better. (Not that [you] said it was)

Hit boxes seem fine in DOA5. You said Kokoro's 6pp float was nerfed, which I don't was a good example considering she has 5k, 9p, and gained p+k as well as 6kp for refloats? Maybe I wasn't understanding that part.

Seems you glazed over the two other examples I gave. The better question then is why was 6pp lost among these other relaunches and setups. What did Helena get that was new, beyond a ender to 8pp2p (that's new right?)

@Tenryuga and everyone else.

It's a good point. Al ot of the time launchers get neglected because of the lack of need for them. Hayate has absolutely no need for 9K because 3KK out classes or matches it in all areas (Speed 9K - 17i, 33K - 15i) (Damage - Both 25) (Height - Both Mid) (Launch Height - 33K wins) (Hitbox - 33K superior above and below.

But like said we'll have to wait and see. If they're anything like Sarah's 4H+K on NH or I guess as the launcher, they're most likely not going to offer much.

 

[Brute]

Crazy idea: If you want a move to launch, make it's animation a plausible launch.

 

[TakedaZX]

"Launch" in the FGC is just the word used to describe a state where your opponent can't make any retaliations what so ever. Whether it's politically correct or not isn't really the situation... if that's your issue Brute.

There's nothing wrong with a ground bounce launch or a pick up off of a hard knocking down bound.

 

[Brute]

"Launch" in the FGC is just the word used to describe a state where your opponent can't make any retaliations what so ever.

Not exactly. That would imply that the Deja Vu is a launch.

Traditional launchers aren't synonymous with "bounds," which is why we have two words for them. If they want some sort of guaranteed damage off of strikes that clearly aren't launchers, it would be best to alter the stun system for more sit-down stuns, limbo stuns, etc. that can get that sort of damage with follow-ups. I don't really see bounds as the solution because of the randomness of which moves bound. Since the animation (as discussed earlier) does not indicate it would launch, it becomes a system of "we like this move, let's make it voodoo." Mechanics-wise there's nothing wrong with the damage, if well-integrated. But from a practical end it seems like a strange way to answer the pleas for "more guaranteed damage."

 

[TakedaZX]

-scratch that other response-

So then we are basically just arguing aesthetics here... which isn't the [central] point. As you said from a damage stand point, they can work out well in conjunction to the true launchers if implemented well so we do agree on that.

I don't believe that the additions of the bounds, heavy bounds, double bounds and etc. were added in the hopes of pacifying the cries for guaranteed damage because specifically with Ayane, 3H+K which bounds now (not sure of the circumstances) lowers the overall damage possibility if bounds work as they do for Sarah's 4h+k which does just about the same thing. Minimal juggle, not much refloat potential, etc which is why I brought up the idea of certain moves and launchers giving an increased relaunch and possibly different relaunch animation for being used during a bound state, if not with a NH bound, a max threshold bound or during a juggle.

But... overall in the end it's just going to be more room for people to make up their own juggles and own styles. My identity is my wide variety of juggles with Hayate. I'm sure people would like to have their own/make their own styles.

 

[Brute]

But... overall in the end it's just going to be more room for people to make up their own juggles and own styles. My identity is my wide variety of juggles with Hayate. I'm sure people would like to have their own/make their own styles.

Shoho Izuna. That or bait HiC Izuna Otoshi.

There is no escape from the Izunas (now with 100% more low throw Izunas).

 

[TakedaZX]

Shoho Izuna. That or bait HiC Izuna Otoshi.

There is no escape from the Izunas (now with 100% more low throw Izunas).

It's the most beautiful buff in the history of ever T-T.

 

[Tenryuga]

The Izuna has no weaknesses.

 

[TRI Mike]

I'm actually very happy about low Izuna Otoshi.

 

[RoboJoe]

The Izuna has no weaknesses.

Except kicks.

 

[MajesticBlue]

On a really random note Helena did get at least one new refloat. Bt4P+K. It was in doad though. I also miss Hitomi having P6P6P. It was pretty godly. It made her damage out put way better then you would think. Was cool when Ryu could get full juggles and untechables off 3F+K....fun little things gone.

 

[TakedaZX]

Yea. Why get rid of the old though? This ain't Tekken but Jin is still able to do the bnb he's been doing for years and more. I don't understand why steps are taken backwards...