Community "Don't think. Feel" The Jann Lee General Discussion Thread

[whiterobes]

After being teched up, the majority of players that are familiar with Jann will duck, suspecting 'anything standing/high', meaning his DG, D. kick or even safer options of 9P and 236P. 66K is safe but doesn't track, so if they aren't expecting high, they can expect a tracking mid or low. 1K and 2H+K are unsafe and can be solved by a simple crouching guard. Normal stun 4H+K is great, even if it's unsafe on guard, it has delay with it's followup, which also tracks. I think most knowledgeable players would rather take a normal stun 4H+K than have to deal with safe, high moves or a DG. This is where I believe Jann's mixup suffers. Yes, it's circumstantial with different players, but even newer players in the pits of the rank cesspool have gotten wise to the typical 6PP, H+K nonsense. Players can and will adapt.

And when you factor in hard timing unholdables? That's iffy. At that point, I wouldn't even call them unholdables. I'd call it mix up. We don't have the option to see what frame advantage we're at in fights, unless you're playing a computer. We're only human, after all. It just comes down to your personal preference and/or the level of difficulty you want to put on yourself.

 

[Darkslay]

After being teched up, the majority of players that are familiar with Jann will duck, suspecting 'anything standing/high', meaning his DG, D. kick or even safer options of 9P and 236P. 66K is safe but doesn't track, so if they aren't expecting high, they can expect a tracking mid or low. 1K and 2H+K are unsafe and can be solved by a simple crouching guard. Normal stun 4H+K is great, even if it's unsafe on guard, it has delay with it's followup, which also tracks. I think most knowledgeable players would rather take a normal stun 4H+K than have to deal with safe, high moves or a DG. This is where I believe Jann's mixup suffers. Yes, it's circumstantial with different players, but even newer players in the pits of the rank cesspool have gotten wise to the typical 6PP, H+K nonsense. Players can and will adapt.

And when you factor in hard timing unholdables? That's iffy. At that point, I wouldn't even call them unholdables. I'd call it mix up. We don't have the option to see what frame advantage we're at in fights, unless you're playing a computer. We're only human, after all. It just comes down to your personal preference and/or the level of difficulty you want to put on yourself.

Its always been known that JL has two major weaknesses, mixup and safety, however, in a wakeup situation, mixup is not determined by a character's strings, its determined by what they can put on screen and how effective it is, the same principle of footsies. If you say opponents are reluctant to duck in a tech situation, that already gives you something. Take your 4H+K example, the followup its safe and trying to hold it is a big risk since it can be delayed for 39 frames, his mixup is relative to how you manipulate his strings, that's why PP2KK/2K is godlike, you're FORCING a response from the opponent, they're either committing to a block, or pressing a button, in which case they'll get frame trapped, and in this day and age, the aforementioned 6PP > H+K BS would be labeled as 'low level mixup', you'll be able to get an SDS even from a 1K if you can condition your opponent well enough.

I beg to differ on this one, it might be my playstyle, but i can get those UHs fairly easily, even on reaction, its like timing an 7K after DG, it becomes muscle memory after enough time. That could just be me though.

 

[whiterobes]

Its always been known that JL has two major weaknesses, mixup and safety, however, in a wakeup situation, mixup is not determined by a character's strings, its determined by what they can put on screen and how effective it is, the same principle of footsies. If you say opponents are reluctant to duck in a tech situation, that already gives you something. Take your 4H+K example, the followup its safe and trying to hold it is a big risk since it can be delayed for 39 frames, his mixup is relative to how you manipulate his strings, that's why PP2KK/2K is godlike, you're FORCING a response from the opponent, they're either committing to a block, or pressing a button, in which case they'll get frame trapped, and in this day and age, the aforementioned 6PP > H+K BS would be labeled as 'low level mixup', you'll be able to get an SDS even from a 1K if you can condition your opponent well enough.

I beg to differ on this one, it might be my playstyle, but i can get those UHs fairly easily, even on reaction, its like timing an 7K after DG, it becomes muscle memory after enough time. That could just be me though.

I think you misunderstood. I don't think opponents are reluctant to duck. I said quite the opposite actually. They will more than likely duck! lol But yes, in a tech situation, your opponent ducking does give you the tracking mid kick with followup (if you're not hard timing your UHs like a pro, that is ), which is good. It can be interrupted with even an 11 jab, even when not delayed, but we're assuming the opponent is ducking, right? So they might not react to it and get NH stunned. I'm definitely not arguing with you on his delayable followups and how that relates to his mixup. I think it's great. I guess all I was arguing was his only tracking mid option is mid kick and how that relates to your UH in a tech situation from 6T. I think in general, high UHs aren't always the most viable option, especially with Jann's cooldown on some of his moves. I would debate that 236P is very reactable if they're predicting the standard DG or D. Kick option. I have been whiff punished by a simple duck with that specific move.

 

[Darkslay]

Here's the amazing guide, produced by snowymoonman. Great stuff here, guys.

I personally don't agree with some points and feel some important stuff was left out, all things considered, this is still godlike, much respect to these guys.

 

[KING JAIMY]

I found something interesting today with Jann Lee.

When you perform or it leaves him front turned, right?

However, I figured if you input or it leaves him back turned!

So when holding down the '4' direction, it leaves him back turned which gives him access to his BT moves. Pretty neat, huh?

 

[Darkslay]

I found something interesting today with Jann Lee.

When you perform or it leaves him front turned, right?

However, I figured if you input or it leaves him back turned!

So when holding down the '4' direction, it leaves him back turned which gives him access to his BT moves. Pretty neat, huh?

Haha, not to sound diminishing or anything, but it's been that way since DOA4.

It's a good way of making your attacks even safer since you can backdash or use BT 2K after them, arguably his best crush. It adds one frame of recovery to both moves though, so you have have to be careful.

It also grants him some pretty mean setups at invisible walls, so that's neat.

I personally don't use the BT transition since i prefer mobility, but i can see it working better in some MUs.

 

[BRE5S]

Hi, let me show you a video that I made about Jann Lee.
In this video you will see:
"safe" "unsafe" attack how to deal with stagger escape and how to punish some "unsafe" attack.
Feel free to ask me any question.

 

[Darkslay]

Hi, let me show you a video that I made about Jann Lee.
In this video you will see:
"safe" "unsafe" attack how to deal with stagger escape and how to punish some "unsafe" attack.
Feel free to ask me any question.

Welcome! Glad to see another Jann Lee player around here!

I liked your video, it's pretty well made. However you missed safe moves like 9P, 236P and 44P, i also wouldn't call moves like 2K, 1P and 4P unsafe since they all have followups, it's too risky to throw in those situations, 4PP is also a special mention, as this move is -7, so that means it can only punished with a neutral throw, and remember neutral throws can be broken, these moves are generally called 'semi-safe'.

I expect to see more from you! Good stuff.

 

[BRE5S]

Thanks for the advice! Yes I have completly forgot the move you mention, sorry about that.

I agree with you that some aren't really "unsafe" since they have followup. I however, think it's good to know that if your oppenent won't do the follow up and try to do different attack, you have the possibility to punish him.

Thank you about the "semi-safe" explanation I didn't knew that.

I will post more content similar at this one and will use your advice to improve them.

 

[Eks]

Hi, let me show you a video that I made about Jann Lee.
In this video you will see:
"safe" "unsafe" attack how to deal with stagger escape and how to punish some "unsafe" attack.
Feel free to ask me any question.

Yay! Another Jann Lee player!
Good tutorial by the way.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Nice video. I would like to mention that 4h+k is not safe. Neutral throws have less range but throws generally like 6t have better reach so 4h+k can be punished.

1p from range is safe. Sometimes 6kk also but depends on weight class.

Nice video though

 

[BRE5S]

Interesing, I thought that only heavy weight like Raidou, Bass, Leon could punish 4HK. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Gurimmjaw]

I would like to point out that also kk is unsafe and punishable too by 6t. You forgot also p+k for same option. While it is -7 on block it does have a really good pushback on the move.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Apparently Jann Lee's BT isn't a tracking move according to the game's details yet the animation of the character clearly shows a short spin low.

Try it and SS the low, has to be a mistake there.

 

[Eks]

Apparently Jann Lee's BT isn't a tracking move according to the game's details yet the animation of the character clearly shows a short spin low.

Try it and SS the low, has to be a mistake there.

Yea I find that dumb that it doesn't track. What's odd is that Zack BT2K is essentially the same thing as Jann Lee but it tracks.
TN got no love for Jann Lee

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Apparently Jann Lee's BT isn't a tracking move according to the game's details yet the animation of the character clearly shows a short spin low.

Try it and SS the low, has to be a mistake there.

It doesn't make sense since you see the spin animation of the move and definitely weird. That not all though. Look at k4k and 3k4k. Last hit in k4k tracks but last hit in 3k4k doesn't track even though they are the same move.

Bt 2k doesn't track but bt 2p does? What the hell

 

[Darkslay]

Apparently Jann Lee's BT isn't a tracking move according to the game's details yet the animation of the character clearly shows a short spin low.

Try it and SS the low, has to be a mistake there.

There's some really weird inconsistencies with Jann Lee regarding his tracking moves, like @Gurimmjaw says, Jann Lee's 3K4K does not track, however the P followup does, then 5K4K tracks and the P followup doesn't, it's the same thing with Jacky, H+K and 3KPK track, 6PPK/PP6PPK do not. What kind of ass backwards crap is that?

Same as @eks2009 was saying, Zack's BT 2K is essentially the same move, however his tracks. This exact same phenomenon appears with Ryu and Hayate, their BT 2Ks are literally the same move (18(5)27) but, Ryu's tracks, Hayate's doesn't. It's a weird world, this game.

 

[DestructionBomb]

See this what makes it hilariously interesting but also rather tough to absorb it in in a visual sense. Jann Lee's BT2P is i13 but -7 on block and occasionally -6 yet tracks ironically, whereas BT2K is i15, -12, and doesn't track oddly. In my mind I would like to question them as to why, but it leaves me into the situation of "not sure how I feel right now" simply because the low punch tracks and less likely to be thrown as well as being a quicker move which BT2K gets completely outshined by BT2P in terms of attacks or placed BT in general. BT2K also retains a particular trip stun when used at a certain distance putting him at +17 - +10, which is pretty rare to even get since it's distance based. It's cases like these where I would say fuck it, I'd take the BT2P over the BT2K anyway, but feels weird in humor to take it in. Of course, you probably won't see these moves used as much since majority of close up attacks are more focused facing forward (unless you are going haywire on P+K to go back turned.) For an i15 mid it looks quick and not something to respond to right away for a asap notice anyway so I don't see why not, probably not as a focus though for those BT moves.

This reminds me of Nyotengu's PL mid patch on her first release when the move was considered a mid punch yet the animation clearly shows her lifting her leg up in the air while both of her arms facing the other way. (Which they fixed the Nyotengu part).

For Hayabusa and Hayate, also not sure how I feel about that.

 

[whiterobes]

I've seen a lot of Jann's opt to go for the BT 2K instead of 2P because of its crush properties. It's a better stun than BT2P anyway. Only one player ever sidestepped my BT 2K and it was out of habit, not out of knowledge of the non tracking. He definitely has tracking options when BT though.

 

[Darkslay]

See this what makes it hilariously interesting but also rather tough to absorb it in in a visual sense. Jann Lee's BT2P is i13 but -7 on block and occasionally -6 yet tracks ironically, whereas BT2K is i15, -12, and doesn't track oddly. In my mind I would like to question them as to why, but it leaves me into the situation of "not sure how I feel right now" simply because the low punch tracks and less likely to be thrown as well as being a quicker move which BT2K gets completely outshined by BT2P in terms of attacks or placed BT in general. BT2K also retains a particular trip stun when used at a certain distance putting him at +17 - +10, which is pretty rare to even get since it's distance based. It's cases like these where I would say fuck it, I'd take the BT2P over the BT2K anyway, but feels weird in humor to take it in. Of course, you probably won't see these moves used as much since majority of close up attacks are more focused facing forward (unless you are going haywire on P+K to go back turned.) For an i15 mid it looks quick and not something to respond to right away for a asap notice anyway so I don't see why not, probably not as a focus though for those BT moves.

This reminds me of Nyotengu's PL mid patch on her first release when the move was considered a mid punch yet the animation clearly shows her lifting her leg up in the air while both of her arms facing the other way. (Which they fixed the Nyotengu part).

For Hayabusa and Hayate, also not sure how I feel about that.

I mean, i personally don't mind the BT 2K situation too much, from a consistency standpoint, sure, it annoys me, but i already made a post way back about this, i don't know if you knew this, but Jann Lee's BT game is fantastic, and highly underrated. BT 2K doesn't track, but it still crushes mids, and has decent range, it's not a bad move, BT 2P does outshine it though, normally you would get +4 after a 2P (+9 if the opponent is in a LV3 Stun), BT 2P gives you the +9 regardless of stun level. That's not even considering his other tools in BT, even his jab tracks from BT, EVEN HIS JAB, so in comparison, i don't really mind that BT 2K doesn't track, i can say ''fuck it'' too, but it is the inconsistency that bothers me, Zack has always been a weird case compared to JL, they keep taking stuff away from him while Zack gets to keep it, that could just be me though.