Community "Don't think. Feel" The Jann Lee General Discussion Thread

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I've seen a lot of Jann's opt to go for the BT 2K instead of 2P because of its crush properties. It's a better stun than BT2P anyway. Only one player ever sidestepped my BT 2K and it was out of habit, not out of knowledge of the non tracking. He definitely has tracking options when BT though.

The issue with BT2K getting that trip stun is if it's within "NH" for close range (which is rare). It's not often you get NH trip unless they choose to sit there and block. Specially with P+K since the actual move is a GB with negative properties. A common scenario for negative GBs is why wouldn't they attack since you are at -7, but Jann Lee has pushback to avoid certain moves for this with P+K, however going for the BT2K immediately from a move such as P+K is simply asking to get hit in a stun if the opponent chooses to go for mids that closes gaps, especially mids with deep stuns and multiple strings attached. Also to mention that if the opponent chooses to go for the high/certain mids and you went for the BT2K you are more than likely to get the side knockdown instead of the trip stun because you landed BT2K on "CH" from a close distance due to the opponent hitting buttons for doing so. (Unless they whiff one jab and choose to block after, which is seldom random at best.), specially for P+K of course I mean. If Jann had a neutral attack that left him BT, I can see BT2K for positive uses. He does have PP4P which puts him at -5 so perhaps there, but even that's dangerous since it's added light negatives to where it's a read from Jann Lee and 'hopefully' the opponent makes a mistake after it.

Unless Jann has a move that puts him at neutral or advantage for going BT, I can see why people would use BT2K...however the likelyhood of getting the trip stun from BT2K is pretty rare, especially with a character who is not often backturned because there is this high probability they would attack you for it, players in general just do minus Brad who has low hitting stuns from BT that are +1 and greater and higher for CH scenarios and free cancelling. Specially P+K or any moves that leave him at light negatives puts Jann Lee in a situation where he has to make a read, and reads especially for BT situations is tough unless they mindlessly mash expecting for the best. This is generally tough against characters such as Christie, Pai and Kasumi who have mid part strings with extra follow ups that can catch Jann for it because the move is i15 at best. Shin Ryujin would likely tell you guys the same thing.

I mean, i personally don't mind the BT 2K situation too much, from a consistency standpoint, sure, it annoys me, but i already made a post way back about this, i don't know if you knew this, but Jann Lee's BT game is fantastic, and highly underrated. BT 2K doesn't track, but it still crushes mids, and has decent range, it's not a bad move, BT 2P does outshine it though, normally you would get +4 after a 2P (+9 if the opponent is in a LV3 Stun), BT 2P gives you the +9 regardless of stun level. That's not even considering his other tools in BT, even his jab tracks from BT, EVEN HIS JAB, so in comparison, i don't really mind that BT 2K doesn't track, i can say ''fuck it'' too, but it is the inconsistency that bothers me, Zack has always been a weird case compared to JL, they keep taking stuff away from him while Zack gets to keep it, that could just be me though.

Yeah, Bayman's BT2K crushes certain mids as well. My only problem with certain BT moves is that they are majority singular (majority of the characters are like that too) with the second problem is that these particular moves suffer from mids with multiple natural mid strings with the low won't having the time to connect. A move I tested with PP4P > BT2K has wonders where if they wait a bit too late it would go under the mid but will put them via side knockdown due to CH, however if they instantly perform a mid the moment the string is over or during a whiff recovery while going into BT2K they can catch Jann immediately with a mid up close and won't crush it due to frame amounts from BT going back forward. Still, I'll check the thread. Was hoping Jann would have a BT move that leaves him at -1 or neutral for lows, though TN might believe it would be too good I suppose.
 
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Darkslay

Well-Known Member
Yeah, Bayman's BT2K crushes certain mids as well. My only problem with certain BT moves is that they are majority singular (majority of the characters are like that too) with the second problem is that these particular moves suffer from mids with multiple natural mid strings with the low won't having the time to connect. A move I tested with PP4P > BT2K has wonders where if they wait a bit too late it would go under the mid but will put them via side knockdown due to CH, however if they instantly perform a mid the moment the string is over or during a whiff recovery while going into BT2K they can catch Jann immediately with a mid up close and won't crush it due to frame amounts from BT going back forward. Still, I'll check the thread. Was hoping Jann would have a BT move that leaves him at -1 or neutral for lows, though TN might believe it would be too good I suppose.
He doesn't need a -1 or neutral move though, he has P+K, after the knockback BT 2K will crush highs and mids (yes even i11 ones) the hitbox on P+K is also ridiculously deceptive, at max range it will also crush mid kicks and whiff punish lows. Jann Lee is a character that can control space amazingly well, not Ayane level but actually pretty close to it, if players used stuff like this instead of trying to get a Dragon Gunner in all the time, the character would be held on a way higher regard, especially online.
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
The move is victim to mids that's i14 or quicker with range of moves greater than 1.55+. It won't exactly crush anything unless the opponent delayed their attacks and waited a bit too long for process on executing a move right in between or Jann Lee performed at a distance that is not up close. Reason being is that the player added more frames from going "Back turned to forward" putting the move at risk to not crush anything. The move has crush properties but it is not instant.

Besides, that BT2K will only grant the stun if it's within "NH", not CH. CH provides a side knockdown which resets the momentum anyway (Best thing so far), still do not see why since it's hella risky due to being at a "disadvantage" from the beginning, might as well do it on PP4PP or lighter ones if he had any lighter negative moves. If you managed to get this move while the opponent is hitting those mid buttons and this lands, then either Jann Lee got away with it playing on the net, the opponent used a move that's i14 or slower, or a move in general with poor mid poke range tried to challenge this from P+K pushback into BT2K. Which is why I mentioned if he was -1 or neutral this wouldn't be an issue since Jann Lee will be placed in a earlier crouching state and within the phase of crouching would immediately went to start up to "crush" for Jann Lee to duck the mid. This leads to the ultimate scenario that the only way a character can beat this out if he was -1 or neutral into BT2K is if they had an i10 mid with a solid range of 1.55m or greater, which no one in the roster has on this version. BT2K would of eliminated majority of the characters mid poke options if such a thing existed. This would of been glorious and delicious because not only do they have to expect the low, but mid follows ups as well from being BT leading to mix up potential where they "have" to guess.

I was previously testing P+K into BT2K and the computer is beating this out no problem with a solid fast mid up close, even mids that can be ducked under. I also did it in reverse with recording for Jann with instant buffering using characters via i13 mids and they are blowing this up while putting him in the stun since it places him forward again (with the exception of Gen Fu and Honoka because they will whiff due to the pushback from P+K from their abysmal range), this grants the player a stun up close. A CH stun at that. So far, this works wonders if Jann Lee does this "Mid-way distance" because they will whiff regardless on any mids that is lower than 1.90Ms. Up close? the opponent could just mash an i12 mid with a good range that will succeed without any thought process. Don't get me wrong however, you guys should keep doing it if it works since Jann can still get away with it due to free movement of DOA and distance varying from P+K..but you can't get surprised if it gets blown out by a mid up close and not crushing either when Jann Lee was at disadvantage to begin with which is what I'm going on the topic.

Edit: Here's another good test actually, a much slower move at that. Have the CPU set Jann to P+K > BT2K immediately. For Akira, do 6P. When Jann Lee does the incoming BT2K wait a bit and then do 6P, he'll go under it. However if you do 6P right away (which is what I'm referring to and players in general will buffer fast unless lag), 6P will connect.
 
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Darkslay

Well-Known Member
The move is victim to mids that's i14 or quicker with range of moves greater than 1.55+. It won't exactly crush anything unless the opponent delayed their attacks and waited a bit too long for process on executing a move right in between or Jann Lee performed at a distance that is not up close. Reason being is that the player added more frames from going "Back turned to forward" putting the move at risk to not crush anything. The move has crush properties but it is not instant.

Besides, that BT2K will only grant the stun if it's within "NH", not CH. CH provides a side knockdown which resets the momentum anyway (Best thing so far), still do not see why since it's hella risky due to being at a "disadvantage" from the beginning, might as well do it on PP4PP or lighter ones if he had any lighter negative moves. If you managed to get this move while the opponent is hitting those mid buttons and this lands, then either Jann Lee got away with it playing on the net, the opponent used a move that's i14 or slower, or a move in general with poor mid poke range tried to challenge this from P+K pushback into BT2K. Which is why I mentioned if he was -1 or neutral this wouldn't be an issue since Jann Lee will be placed in a earlier crouching state and within the phase of crouching would immediately went to start up to "crush" for Jann Lee to duck the mid. This leads to the ultimate scenario that the only way a character can beat this out if he was -1 or neutral into BT2K is if they had an i10 mid with a solid range of 1.55m or greater, which no one in the roster has on this version. BT2K would of eliminated majority of the characters mid poke options if such a thing existed. This would of been glorious and delicious because not only do they have to expect the low, but mid follows ups as well from being BT leading to mix up potential where they "have" to guess.

I was previously testing P+K into BT2K and the computer is beating this out no problem with a solid fast mid up close, even mids that can be ducked under. I also did it in reverse with recording for Jann with instant buffering using characters via i13 mids and they are blowing this up while putting him in the stun since it places him forward again (with the exception of Gen Fu and Honoka because they will whiff due to the pushback from P+K from their abysmal range), this grants the player a stun up close. A CH stun at that. So far, this works wonders if Jann Lee does this "Mid-way distance" because they will whiff regardless on any mids that is lower than 1.90Ms. Up close? the opponent could just mash an i12 mid with a good range that will succeed without any thought process. Don't get me wrong however, you guys should keep doing it if it works since Jann can still get away with it due to free movement of DOA and distance varying from P+K..but you can't get surprised if it gets blown out by a mid up close and not crushing either when Jann Lee was at disadvantage to begin with which is what I'm going on the topic.

Edit: Here's another good test actually, a much slower move at that. Have the CPU set Jann to P+K > BT2K immediately. For Akira, do 6P. When Jann Lee does the incoming BT2K wait a bit and then do 6P, he'll go under it. However if you do 6P right away (which is what I'm referring to and players in general will buffer fast unless lag), 6P will connect.
I think i might have misworded my previous post, apologies. I meant BT 2K will crush ALL i11 mids, you know, because they all have shit range, and it will crush all highs, as you said though, everything that's between 12 and 14 will catch him, that gray area is covered by hitting P+K at max range though, and that's honestly the range you should aim to hit P+K with every single time, hell, you could be ballsy and attempt BT 7P, another solid but unsafe crush from BT.

I find it funny that you mention PP4P as well, since PP4PP exists, now remember, the move is -8 but thanks to just the right amount of pushblock on the move, you can't actually punish it, only a i6 6T can punish this move. Now here's where things get ''glorious and delicious'' as you say, if you put that string on block you can put pressure on the opponent and make them doubt doing a move next time you do PP4P, there's where you can start your shenanigans, then again, this becomes even more apt at the wall since a full charged PP4PP will give you a +8 ''sitdown guard break'', and that's just lovely. Learning to condition people with JL will take you far, man, that's pretty much what the character is all about, in my opinion. You wanna know another neat little (bullshit) trick with PP4PP? If the opponent retaliates with a jab string after the PP4PP, their first jab will whiff, and you'll be able to punish with you own jab string, you'll have to commit though, and there is a gray area involving heavy/grappler characters (and Ryu), their jabs have better range, so they won't be affected by it.
 

DestructionBomb

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
@DestructionBomb- There is one move I know that does put Jann Lee at advantage and leaves him backturned but there is a downside to it. You have to charge the move. This move is 33p and is +12 on block

Oh wow, that one is delicious. Not only is he at advantage (+12? wow that's awesome) he'll likely blow up a solid mid up close as well as positive GBs can condition the opponent to block because they know he's at advantage so hopefully it provides that fear from attacking him. They go for the mid, they are knocked down. They sit there and block and you'll get the NH low sweep trip stun. I mean's +12 throwing a i15 move, wow ahaha.

Shit only sad part is the charging, but I still like that because the opponent has to respect it due to advantage. You deserve the advantage for charging it and getting the crush since it's the opponent's fault for blocking it. If the opponent expects it and trying to punish it with a low throw, tossing that P+K or a mid hitting them while they are crouched.

Did not expect that one, good stuff.

I think i might have misworded my previous post, apologies. I meant BT 2K will crush ALL i11 mids, you know, because they all have shit range, and it will crush all highs, as you said though, everything that's between 12 and 14 will catch him, that gray area is covered by hitting P+K at max range though, and that's honestly the range you should aim to hit P+K with every single time, hell, you could be ballsy and attempt BT 7P, another solid but unsafe crush from BT.

I find it funny that you mention PP4P as well, since PP4PP exists, now remember, the move is -8 but thanks to just the right amount of pushblock on the move, you can't actually punish it, only a i6 6T can punish this move. Now here's where things get ''glorious and delicious'' as you say, if you put that string on block you can put pressure on the opponent and make them doubt doing a move next time you do PP4P, there's where you can start your shenanigans, then again, this becomes even more apt at the wall since a full charged PP4PP will give you a +8 ''sitdown guard break'', and that's just lovely. Learning to condition people with JL will take you far, man, that's pretty much what the character is all about, in my opinion. You wanna know another neat little (bullshit) trick with PP4PP? If the opponent retaliates with a jab string after the PP4PP, their first jab will whiff, and you'll be able to punish with you own jab string, you'll have to commit though, and there is a gray area involving heavy/grappler characters (and Ryu), their jabs have better range, so they won't be affected by it.

Yo yo it's cool, just trying to help out cool Jann Lee players. I just like finding the gap where the opponent has no choice but to guess, which is the best part about it because guessing can lead to mistakes from the opponent that can cost them momentum.
 
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Nunchaku

New Member
Thanks @eks2009 ! Hey everybody!! Nunchaku_101 from PSN (AKA MutenRoshi93 from Xbox) here. I can all ready see that we have some in depth discussions about J Lee. Can't wait to learn and grow in this community with you guys
 

jojo

Member
How come Dragon Gunner is so highly rated? Is it since the frame advantage or are there some combos required to start with DG? I noticed in vids a lot of people using it as mixup.
 
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Darkslay

Well-Known Member
How come Dragon Gunner is so highly rated? Is it since the frame advantage or are there some combos required to start with DG? I noticed in vids a lot of people using it as mixup.
I honestly think it's a garbage move, lol. It's extremely effective in online play though.

There are ways of to use the DG intelligently though. People often argue Jann Lee has next to no ground game and that his force techs are bad, but using the DG on someone's wakeup is probably the best way of using the move, it puts a legitimate 50-50 on the opponent, using it after raw advantage is also very effective, people forget the DG is an OH meant to intercept attacks instead of a poking tool, but that's the way it is.

If you do land a DG it's hard to argue the pay is quite big, coupled with JL's great stuns, the DG can lead to massive damage in a very short amount of time.

And also, never believe stuff like jab into DG or 6P into DG, those are online gimmicks to the max, lololol.
 

jojo

Member
I honestly think it's a garbage move, lol. It's extremely effective in online play though.

There are ways of to use the DG intelligently though. People often argue Jann Lee has next to no ground game and that his force techs are bad, but using the DG on someone's wakeup is probably the best way of using the move, it puts a legitimate 50-50 on the opponent, using it after raw advantage is also very effective, people forget the DG is an OH meant to intercept attacks instead of a poking tool, but that's the way it is.

If you do land a DG it's hard to argue the pay is quite big, coupled with JL's great stuns, the DG can lead to massive damage in a very short amount of time.

And also, never believe stuff like jab into DG or 6P into DG, those are online gimmicks to the max, lololol.

thanks, i was clueless on what to do against wakeups outside of holding, people get all over me when im on the ground so it'll be good to have more than one option other than blocking

p.s. i've been struggling on the 4PP4 DS (Dragon Stance) K 6P+K 4PP 6PK combo you posted (tried on a few different weight classes) on the other thread, is there a delay in some of the attacks or something?
 
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Nunchaku

New Member
In order to 4PP 6PK, you must free cancel after 4PP. Free canceling is when you quickly hit the block button right after an input so that your character doesn't finish the string.
 
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