MasterGamer
Member
Those two moves actually did more damage pp2kp in doa4. It was nice to use when you didn't want to think, but I won't miss it too much.
Helena's needed improvements
- Thread starter TRI Mike
- Start date
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
My hope is that they lowered the hit box on the kick portion of PPK. She needs a string for basic launch height, PPP the last hit comes out too slow and 236 PKP needs additional height to land.
Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
This is just me saying combos she could do in DOAD, but she gained a lot of new options off of her BKO throw. On a slope, you could get 4PPK 236PKP for insane damage. Others included...
P PP2K 6KK (not going to be in 5 as PP2K has different properties now)
P 66KPP
236PK 236PKP (next to a wall)
4PPK 33PP (did 2 additional damage over her generic 4PPK 9K)
PP 3PPP (next to a wall)
Those are just some that I could remember. Again, with the gravity having been changed, I'm not sure which (if any) of these juggles will work, but I'm looking forward to trying them out
P PP2K 6KK (not going to be in 5 as PP2K has different properties now)
P 66KPP
236PK 236PKP (next to a wall)
4PPK 33PP (did 2 additional damage over her generic 4PPK 9K)
PP 3PPP (next to a wall)
Those are just some that I could remember. Again, with the gravity having been changed, I'm not sure which (if any) of these juggles will work, but I'm looking forward to trying them out
chocogerman777
Well-Known Member
So.. we saw Mamba's performance with Helena tonight.
Did Master and Rikuto expose Helena or did Black Mamba choke?
Did Master and Rikuto expose Helena or did Black Mamba choke?
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Mamba didn't do pretty much anything he couldn't have done with her in DOA4. No sit down stuns and only one CB. They could have throw punished her a lot but didn't, they might not be aware of how unsafe she is now.
She definitely isn't as bad as people made her out to be, but lacking any real frame advantage it is hard for her to maintain momentum for too long. Mamba screwed up a few juggles repeatedly so I'm guessing his experience with her is very limited.
I don't think she is the worst character in the game though, not by a long shot. Gotta remember she isn't worse in comparison to DOA4 Helena, she is worse because she didn't get particularly good tools when transitioning into DOA5 unlike a lot of other characters.
Doug Nguyen
Well-Known Member
I really like Helena but Dr. Dogg was right, it is an uphill battle with Helena. Its her slow speed i have to get used to and her lack of damage. Especially the speed, i feel like almost every character beats me out and i suck when im at a far distance.
HiiDOOM
New Member
So far my biggest problem with Helena seems to be a total lack of long distance tools. Once ppl get a bit of space it can be very difficult to get back to Helena's sweetspot. I've been using SS K a lot which seems helpful but everything else just has diddly range outside of her flying roundhouse. While this has never been one of Helena's shining strengths, it seems like the cast overall has stronger keep out tools this time around imo.
In general she just kind of feels 'meh' to me tho. She doesn't seem particularly strong in any one area (I guess maybe string variation??) and it may be just me, but I've been having a lot more trouble using her BKO duck than I'm used to. Have you guys had similar thoughts regarding that move? I'm hoping it's just me, as that's always been a unique tool that played to her strengths.
In general she just kind of feels 'meh' to me tho. She doesn't seem particularly strong in any one area (I guess maybe string variation??) and it may be just me, but I've been having a lot more trouble using her BKO duck than I'm used to. Have you guys had similar thoughts regarding that move? I'm hoping it's just me, as that's always been a unique tool that played to her strengths.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
She's excels at evasion not rush down. She's got 2 f+k, 66p, 66k, and ss k, 2k, and 9p strings to get in if needed.
Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
I've always felt that she was a rushdown character, myself. I say that because as Hiidoom said, once they gain some distance, it's a little intimidating trying to get back in, so to avoid that I find it best to try to stay on the opponent at all times.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
I will show you some stuff that'll help tomorrow.
Her BKO duck feels like it has move recovery to it, I think most of us have felt it.
Black Mamba seemed to do very well with Helena at the I'm a Fighter Dead or Alive 5 Launch Party, even though it seems like Bokuho was the only best way for her to get out of a bad situation(in some cases).
I haven't played DOA for two weeks now(trying to fresh out my memory for Helena in DOA5 since the conditions changed), but for some reason i feel lucky doing so.
But at this point, this one question keeps popping up in my mind after watching Black Mamba's matches at the launch party: Is Bokuho her only chance of winning the match?
I don't like the thought of what the answer might be; it stinks, but that may be the truth.
I'm not sure.
I haven't played DOA for two weeks now(trying to fresh out my memory for Helena in DOA5 since the conditions changed), but for some reason i feel lucky doing so.
But at this point, this one question keeps popping up in my mind after watching Black Mamba's matches at the launch party: Is Bokuho her only chance of winning the match?
I don't like the thought of what the answer might be; it stinks, but that may be the truth.
I'm not sure.
KwonJigglypuff
Well-Known Member
Well, they probably wanted her to rely on her BKO, since it's her "individuality", that would make sense. But people keep saying that's not her only tools, but yeah.. she must rely a lot on it apparently (unfortunately?). I don't really see that as a problem if her BKO/evasion game is still solid.
It seems that we are far from the terrible impression we had of her a few weeks ago, when she was described as "hard to master, AND with no real rewards at the end".
I haven't received my copy yet, did you feel that there was a difference with her BKO transitions from DOA4 to DOA5, except for these new moves ?
Oh and random question, does she have a new taunt ?
It seems that we are far from the terrible impression we had of her a few weeks ago, when she was described as "hard to master, AND with no real rewards at the end".
I haven't received my copy yet, did you feel that there was a difference with her BKO transitions from DOA4 to DOA5, except for these new moves ?
Oh and random question, does she have a new taunt ?
In Dead or Alive 4, i honestly thought she was at her best(even though the fourth game itself wasn't).
The thing that has my mind filled with questions is "was TN's idea of removing many great tools a blessing or just a big mistake?"
In Dead or Alive 4, Helena had a bigger variety of tools.
And now, most of those are no longer available for use while the other characters have an increase of new toys.
KwonJigglypuff
Well-Known Member
Hmmmmm. I know she is the character with the least new tools and the least improvement in general, but.. I mean, - again, I haven't played her yet in DOA5, but - what if her BKO (which was already an amazing tool before) was solid enough to win ? I don't see why it should be considered as a problem.
I think they wanted each character to have a stance/individuality, a bit like in VF, and they were probably thinking that Helena already had that advantage over the others, that their work with her was partially/already done. That's why they were so lazy with her. Plus she is not really that popular.
Yeah sure, I wish she could have new tools too (BKO parry, SS BKO, the possibility to turn her back instantaneously), but from what I've heard/seen, she seems pretty honorable. And we'll have to deal with it.
What did you have in mind ?
By the way, can you add new moves with patches, or is it just a fantasy ? I guess once the moveset is created, patches can only change properties/frame, you can't just add new animations like this (except if you've created them before and they are like locked, which is stupid). Yeah, that's silly.
I think they wanted each character to have a stance/individuality, a bit like in VF, and they were probably thinking that Helena already had that advantage over the others, that their work with her was partially/already done. That's why they were so lazy with her. Plus she is not really that popular.
Yeah sure, I wish she could have new tools too (BKO parry, SS BKO, the possibility to turn her back instantaneously), but from what I've heard/seen, she seems pretty honorable. And we'll have to deal with it.
What did you have in mind ?
By the way, can you add new moves with patches, or is it just a fantasy ? I guess once the moveset is created, patches can only change properties/frame, you can't just add new animations like this (except if you've created them before and they are like locked, which is stupid). Yeah, that's silly.
Sora
Member
If she had any of the following, she'd be a MUCH better character:
+ One other low from BKO other than BKO 2K (I'd kill for a low BKO throw)
+ BKO 6K to be safe (-4 or lower)
+ 4PPP/1PPK to be safe-r (not necessarily safe, just not -7 or higher)
+ Better frames in general (yes, obvious but at least make her good at interrupting OR poking. Not bad at both... =[ )
+ One other low from BKO other than BKO 2K (I'd kill for a low BKO throw)
+ BKO 6K to be safe (-4 or lower)
+ 4PPP/1PPK to be safe-r (not necessarily safe, just not -7 or higher)
+ Better frames in general (yes, obvious but at least make her good at interrupting OR poking. Not bad at both... =[ )
TRI Mike
Well-Known Member
After BKO throw use 4PPK 9K. Just like in DOA4.
She definitely is shit. It's all mid punches. 6P4PP from Bokuho is a piece of shit string, opponent has to be brain-dead to get hit by it. 6PP gives her a sit-down but since everything is a mid punch and she lacks any other single-hit sit-downs, as soon as you hit them again they hold and her offense ends. 8PP2P is... pretty but completely useless as it doesn't stun, doesn't work for juggling and does little to no damage. Also, once you use it too much, opponents simply hold the low punch. Her throws are crappy, 2P+F combo throw was very good in 4, but it's shit now. Bryan was right.
The only thing she was going for her is looking at the reaction of noobs when she uses her 3-in-1s, other than that, she doesn't seem viable at all.
She definitely is shit. It's all mid punches. 6P4PP from Bokuho is a piece of shit string, opponent has to be brain-dead to get hit by it. 6PP gives her a sit-down but since everything is a mid punch and she lacks any other single-hit sit-downs, as soon as you hit them again they hold and her offense ends. 8PP2P is... pretty but completely useless as it doesn't stun, doesn't work for juggling and does little to no damage. Also, once you use it too much, opponents simply hold the low punch. Her throws are crappy, 2P+F combo throw was very good in 4, but it's shit now. Bryan was right.
The only thing she was going for her is looking at the reaction of noobs when she uses her 3-in-1s, other than that, she doesn't seem viable at all.
Dr_Tom
New Member
first hit 6PP is high, not mid. doesn't change much since it's usually the second hit of string that gets countered, but first hit is not a mid.
side step P is a single hit sit down stun
why are you completing strings often enough for them to know you'll do it?
her throws do seem pretty lacking but they're there and they do damage. She still has BKO throw which is still very good.
Personally, I still think it's to early to tell for sure. The game hasn't even been out for a week, and DrDogg is the only person with significant time with Helena so far. Give people, and yourself, time to play around and try new things. Maybe there's stuff DrDogg missed, maybe there's not. It's too early to tell. Personally, I'm finding that when Helena lands the initial stun, it's pretty easy to get CB. She can do it fast, and hit at any level to continue to threshold.
HiiDOOM
New Member
Is her evasion really that great anymore? Her two best evasion tools (p+k and BKO duck both seemed nerfed) this seems a strange direction to go to me if you want that aspect of a character to be their signature strength. I suppose it's the best of what's left of her tools if that's how you want to look at it. I think you may have misinterpreted my post, she's defiantly not a rushdown character, at least in the sense that you will be in their grill out poking them and stuffing their moves. She's way to slow for that. I do think she needs to keep the fight to an upclose battle tho, as she's very easy to keep out once she loses her footing up close.
I'm surprised at the moves you've listed for distance closing tools, as most of those are tools that won't reach outside of close space between you and the opponent. 66p and 66k aren't half bad if you land them I guess, but good luck w/ that.
You can also do 4PPK 8PP2P to squeeze out a little more damage on lighter characters.