I Am The Shadow... The True Self... [General Discussion]

PuertoRicanStyL

Active Member
Even Kokoro's 6P is -12 on block. :v

Kokoro's 6P is -11 on hit.. On. Friggin. Hit.. lol. I think every character is at least like, -8 on NH with a 6P poke..
I personally think that's pretty dumb. You're pretty much forced to just keep swingin with zero delay to have any kind of frame advantage, outside of conditioning someone to actually block after they get hit. But seeing as how you can't block after getting hit by most moves, holds and abare are the popular choices. Which makes me think that's why after :P: and :K: the game calls the other button 'hold' instead of 'block/guard'. And is why I realized why most peoples reaction to getting hit is to swing right back, since if the move didn't stun you the attacker is in negative frames. Game seems to be all over the place with frames, the evasion properties of moves and block stuns. Which makes the game feel chaotic a lot of times. But, that's DoA. Gotta deal with it or don't play it I guess..

Sorry, went way off topic, lol.

I don't think I've ever used Phase's H+K moves yet in the neutral game. Using side step to gain advantage seems to be very hard in this, so I've never tried to catch anybody with it. I'm kind of wondering now what kind of hit box those moves have on em and what happens when they clash with jabs n whatnot from a certaint distance.
 
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Zero Beat

Well-Known Member
Great adjustments in that second match. It seems that Phase 4 is very defense-oriented. Wait for your opponent to make a mistake and capitalize for huge damage. I need to tone down my aggression with her.
 

tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Thanks. It really depends what kind of opponent you have. When you are playing someone who does not know your character, his moves and frame data very well, you can be more offensive of course. Actually, almost every longer string or slower move is unsafe and punishable on block in DOA, however, first thing I like to do in a match against someone is using stuff that is more unsafe to check if he's going right for the punishment. If he's doing so, you know that you simply cannot just put things on the screen because if you do so, he'll blow you up when you're trying to attack from disadvantage or just sit it out and throw punish you to death.

Next thing is that you have to see how defense he is. In most cases, (average (online)) players tend trying to come back in with some running move right after backing of once they've grounded you. While this depends on the character your opponent is playing, you have to calculate if you press a button on your own or you better of saying "I wait and see because I know he's right about comming back with something I can block and counter the next move then". This is very difficult against players who play footsies very good though.

Furthermore, it depends if you're opponent respects when his own moves or strings were blocked or whiffed. If you know he ended a whole string and is going right for another after it (that does not automatically mean he's mashing), you'll have it easier to pick up the offense due to having good counters. Then, it will look like in the video David Gregg posted more easily.

*Edit* I should also add that your own defense as well as offensive depends on the opponents one too. As soon as I play against Helena players who half way know what they are doing for example, I'm rarely able to act that free both in taking a break on the ground as well as being allowed to poke that nasty. About 80% of the time, I'm more busy with blocking her stuff and trying not to get hit by her lows instead. MU experience and character knowledge is also a factor, that's why also get whooped by Eliots in most cases xD
 
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Zephyrion

Member
Like in every fighting game, when your character isn't suited for opening people, you must go back to fundamentals. countering/punishing is one we have covered earlier, but flexibility is another one : If you can't open the opponent because your character haven't good options to do that, then resort to the mechanics of the game: side-steps, throws, crushes only to name a few .Since Phase 4 is quite the mixup/damage monster, you have to use that as a psychological threat : punish their bad habits and make them afraid to press buttons, slow your offensive if you see that the other is trying to get in the hard way, play spacing, and if they turtle, throw and abuse the hell out the few safe moves she has.

This is true for every other character, but it is especially important to Phase, since it's her only way to get something going against players that actually knows the MU/play well. What makes her so good and so fun to play is that you have to be/become exceptionally solid all around to play her well, but you get rewarded a lot for adapting fast and making the good choices !
 

Shadow985

Member
What makes her so good and so fun to play is that you have to be/become exceptionally solid all around to play her well, but you get rewarded a lot for adapting fast and making the good choices !

And that's exactly why I keep her on my team. I tend to autopilot when I play my other characters and phase keeps me on my toes the whole match. You have to be so on point with everything to win with her. I'd imagine it's how smash players that main the space animals feel. Your execution, punishes, movement, and reactions have to be at 100% to bring out their potential. Otherwise you get bodied. I still wish 3P wasn't a 2 in 1 though lol.
 

synce

Well-Known Member
Just dumping some old notes here in case I ever come back to DOA

cb juggle: 33k,4p,4k chi k ten t (home-w = no 4p)
home-w juggle: 33k,6pk ten t

3p/p6p cancels best extenders (uppercut/hits low holders)

open stance limbo: 66p,p6p,4p and 66p,4p

236t 4p,4k chi k ten k chi p (98 hch)
236t wall 4k,8k ten p,8k ten k chi p (120 hch)
236t ceiling 4p always gives limbo

6kkp,*T*,cb,*T*,9k,*T*,9k chi k ten k,*T*,3pppppp,*T*,pkkk,*T*,kkkk7k

glitch? when opponent downed, 3p+k p will go through
 

PMS_Akali

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
Premium Donor
She's super fun, but going between her and Kasumi so much messes me up bad. My muscle memory for combos gets switched between the two too much. But her costumes are amazing, I can't help but pick her sometimes. >_<

Kasumi is more aggressive, so P4's patience game is no my style. Her mixups from teleport are crazy, though. She's very unpredictable in the right hands.
 

tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
No joke guys, I wouldn't recommend you to use 8K > Tenfu K (maybe for a mini juggle à la 33P 2P 6PK after it) on a stunned opponent who's back is close to a wall or corner. The Tenfu K has a decent chance to whiff completely due to him being glitched a bit aside after 8K's wall splat.
 

PMS_Akali

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
Premium Donor
No joke guys, I wouldn't recommend you to use 8K > Tenfu K (maybe for a mini juggle à la 33P 2P 6PK after it) on a stunned opponent who's back is close to a wall or corner. The Tenfu K has a decent chance to whiff completely due to him being glitched a bit aside after 8K's wall splat.
I actually don't use 8K much at all. I can't figure out when it's gonna connect or not most of the time so I just stick to 6PK Tenfu K.
 

tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
That is weird:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/media/back-turned-limbo-stun-cb.6482/

Looks like her limbo stun is a bit unique. Well, I don't have experience with limbo stuns from other characters, so it could be that everything is holdable if it is used after stepping a bit aside. Maybe this is something already known. However, maybe this setup is still worth for trying a bit more around in which other way it could be used.

*Edit*
Ummm ... yeah, while testing a bit around with the AI, it looks like that it is not slow escapable (but holdable) when you start with 6PP on counterhit (6PP 4P ss 6P+K).
 
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Zero Beat

Well-Known Member
I've been working on my defense lately, but whenever I go online, it seems I experience severe lag and it takes half a second for button presses to register. Phase is very different online vs. offline.

The one time this wasn't a problem was when I decided to go up against Master. Unsurprisingly, he's much better than I am.
 

tokiopewpew

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I guess most of you guys have already heared that it was recently discovered that the current version of DOA5U gives some characters the opportunity of landing unholdable attacks on the opponent if they perform a tech-roll after getting juggled.

If not, check Mr. Wah's more detailed description here:
http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/unholdable-setups.4779/

Therefore, I tried to find something like this for Phase, but I was not very successfull with it yet. The main problem in her case is that she does not have many good moves that are mid or low and cause a deep stun on normal hit or give any kind of advantage. Imo, 8P, 6P+K, 4P, 6H+K and 66K are the ones with the most potential for this, though I haven't found any setup or juggle yet, were they won't get held or just whiff. The advantage given due to the opponent's tech roll is not enough for letting these moves hit if the invulnerability is gone. Also, these moves are all around i20, however, her faster launchers like her 7K or her 4K also either whiffed if done too early or got held.

Trying to get a stun by using her mini strings like 1PP, 6PP, PP6PP or PPKKK, did not give me any useful result, the AI was always able to hold one part of these strings, depending on to which hold reaction it was set.

The only useful thing I've found so far is that she get's an unholdable mid punch stun out of her Tenzanso (9PP) after grounding her opponent with her 6T. If the opponent tries to get up right after it and 9PP is done immeditatly after 6T, this move cannot be held in any way and grants her a stun with +20 advantage.

If the opponent just stays on the ground, 9PP will just whiff, leaving her at +0. If the opponent attemps to do a wakeup-kick right after getting grounded and hits Phase while performing the 9P Tenfu flip, she will just get interrupted, but not deep stunned or grounded. Although she is in -9 disadvantage then, the opponent won't really be able to capitalize on this because the wakeup-kick hit pushes her a bit away. Since the disadvantage can be reduced by slow escaping, throw attempts can be fuzzied. Thereby, it doesn't matter if this was a mid or low wakeup-kick, the result is the same.

Phase can also not be hit by delayed wakeup-kicks if she does 9PP immeditatly after 6T. Tenzanso itself won't come out if the opponent is still grounded, the result will just be the 9P Tenfu flip, and it won't let her jump over the grounded opponent (due to a kind of an invisible wall). This means, she won't be vulnerable to delayed wakeup-kicks due to being back-sided on whiff.

I don't know how what will happen if the opponent decides to sidestep right after getting up, I can't really test this with the AI. However, Tenzanso does not track so it might be that Phase will whiff and can get hit by sidestep attacks. If the opponent is just blocking after getting up, Phase will be left at -9.

As far as I've experienced yet, 9PP is holdable if the opponent was grounded with a different throw or move. I'm pretty sure I tried all of her other throws, 6T is atm the only one where the AI is not able to hold in time.

Looks like this is a move with a very good risk/reward relation, which is rare for her. Gonna test around with this a bit more.
 

Zero Beat

Well-Known Member
Something I don't think has been mentioned yet is if you do 8K~P+K after 33K, the teleport closes the gap between you and your opponent. It works against all weights except feather at all critical levels, everyone except featherweight and superheavy at neutral (though it still works on Rachel, strangely(Because her neutral's a hop, maybe?)), and at critical level 1 and neutral, the window to follow up 33K with 8K is small. Only works against featherweight at critical level 1 and 2, critical level 2's window being extremely small.

It can be followed up with Tenfu K~P+K Chifu P to get some space.
 
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Chapstick

Well-Known Member
Figure I'll post this here for anyone else that might want screenshots but wouldn't touch the casual thread with a 20-foot long pole
Got some nice ones

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^what it looks like the split second before oboro
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ShinMaruku

Well-Known Member
I am wondering if I should pick her up soley to force me to learn defense...
The damage she does it too attractive to me. Good or bad idea to use her to learn defense?
 
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