DOA5LR "I'll Try My Best!"Naotora Ii Gameplay Discussion

[DestructionBomb]

Ah wait wait wait.

An opponent who stays on the ground is a conditioned opponent, so you can force them up if they choose to or pseudo techs. What you provided is still good. The next time, they'll likely be desperate and tech up giving what you mentioned the benefit since they also lost the option of staying on the floor because you made them not to.

 

[Nikotsumi]

If the opponent stays on the ground, a good force tech (in this case) is 9P2K, if Naotora end up being back turned, BT 4P is guaranteed again. In some occasions, for some reason, after the opponent is forced to get up, she doesn't end up in BT stance, then you could do P+K > 6KKK6K (P+K is not guaranteed though)
You just have to quickly notice if Naotora is back turned or not xD

 

[KasumiLover]

I just realized today that Naotora's PL is actually a force tech.

 

[DestructionBomb]

That move has a ground hit? huh. Leifang's PL was a ground hit one time but was changed due to an infinite loop she had in ceiling stage back in 5U. Ah well, they only had to adjust it to knock them down but the ground hit from Leifang was removed as well.

 

[KING JAIMY]

I think I've just figured out Naotora's stance frames with just a little bit of reasoning.

As you might or might not know, you can set up a fully charged unholdable Power Blow from a wall if your character is left at +30 frame advantage (FA) after a second wall splat. A fully charged PB has 60 startup frames (i60). You can set up an unholdable PB with every character in this way, not just Naotora!

I posted my unholdables earlier in @KasumiLover69's W.I.P. Naotora Guide. Here I stated that if you follow-up any wall splat with 6PKK, Naotora's Ii Family Creed (IFC) stance 2K is unholdable. After you use 6PKK as a second wall splat, Naotora is left at +24 FA. Since she is left at less FA compared to an unholdable wall PB, you need a move that is six frames faster than a fully charged PB (i.e. 30 - 24 = 6). A simple deduction leads us to the conclusion that her IFC 2K must be i54, because i54 is six frames faster than i60 (i.e. 60 - 6 = 54).

Note that IFC 2K consists of both the stance + the kick follow-up. Raw IFC 2K comprises three kicks which are i14, i7 and i7. However, you only have to take the first kick, which is i14, into consideration. Thus, we can can conclude that the amount of startup frames for her stance equals i40 (i.e. 54 - 14 = 40). Now that the amount of startup frames for her IFC stance is known, we can calculate the amount of startup frames for every move in her IFC stance.

2P+K (raw IFC stance) = i40
2P+K P = i81 (40 + 41)
2P+K K = i75 (40 + 35)
2P+K 2K = i54 (40 + 14)
2P+K P+K = i55 (40 + 15)
2P+K H+K = i61 (40 + 21)
2P+K T = i52 (40 +12)

Using these numbers, we can also calculate the amount of FA needed after a second wall splat to make the strikes (so excluding 2P+K T) from her stance unholdable. Remember that you need 30 FA to make an i60 fully charged PB unholdable.

After a second wall splat, you need 51 FA to make 2P+K P unholdable.
[...]. you need 45 FA to make 2P+K K unholdable.
[...], you need 24 FA to make 2P+K 2K unholdable.
[...], you need 25 FA to make 2P+K P+K unholdable.
[...], you need 31 FA to make 2P+K H+K unholdable.

 

[Nikotsumi]

I've been messing around with 9P lately. Do it after 4T or a low punch hold, it can be really advantageous for Naotora if the opponent tries to do a wake up kick, and she won't be really in disadvantage if the opponent wakes up without doing a wake up kick. I'll probably make a short video about it later.

Edit : There it is

Spoiler

 

[DestructionBomb]

Giving you guys the heads up that the AI wakes up at the exact initial frame on floor hit which human players are not allowed to do in the game (Ex: Akira 43P from Hougeki Unshin palm command/SPoD. It is guaranteed in human standards but not for the AI because the invincibility frames are still kicked in the moment they hit the floor on the AI's part and will get up on that very same exact frame making it not guaranteed at all. Same goes for wake up kicks in general.) 0:44 - 0:46 for example on a player side, might still be able to sneak in the wake up kick and retrack. Nyotengu is on the same boat with 9P which Code tested that one of the moves works completely fine on the AI but the WUK option from the human player will always win and retrack because players can never get up on the exact frame they fall on.

The best ones is the ones that go behind them because it requires a certain amount of frames to turn around and block or even backdash for that matter which is even guaranteed against the AI. Overall, just about everything in the video is very good. 0:45 is sketchy and may not exactly work. The ones that go behind them are the best, no one can escape that if they become desperate on the wake up kick option.

@Nikotsumi also to mention that these can possibly be stopped (exception of teching up neutrally) if they side tech or back tech.

 

[Raansu]

Giving you guys the heads up that the AI wakes up at the exact initial frame on floor hit which human players are not allowed to do in the game (Ex: Akira 43P from Hougeki Unshin palm command/SPoD. It is guaranteed in human standards but not for the AI because the invincibility frames are still kicked in the moment they hit the floor on the AI's part and will get up on that very same exact frame making it not guaranteed at all. Same goes for wake up kicks in general.) 0:44 - 0:46 for example on a player side, might still be able to sneak in the wake up kick and retrack. Nyotengu is on the same boat with 9P which Code tested that one of the moves works completely fine on the AI but the WUK option from the human player will always win and retrack because players can never get up on the exact frame they fall on.

The best ones is the ones that go behind them because it requires a certain amount of frames to turn around and block or even backdash for that matter which is even guaranteed against the AI. Overall, just about everything in the video is very good. 0:45 is sketchy and may not exactly work. The ones that go behind them are the best, no one can escape that if they become desperate on the wake up kick option.

@Nikotsumi also to mention that these can possibly be stopped (exception of teching up neutrally) if they side tech or back tech.

That's why you practice against the same character and use record functions and do the wake up kick yourself.

 

[Nikotsumi]

That's why you practice against the same character and use record functions and do the wake up kick yourself.

I tried doing that at first but it was kinda difficult timing 9P after the low punch hold since you can't record the actual hold animation so I gave up.

Anyway, just ignore it. This stuff is not useful at all (it's too situational) I think I'll remove it xD
Thanks for informations guys, I'll keep them in mind when testing other stuff ^^

 

[DestructionBomb]

I tried doing that at first but it was kinda difficult timing 9P after the low punch hold since you can't record the actual hold animation so I gave up.

Anyway, just ignore it. This stuff is not useful at all (it's too situational) I think I'll remove it xD
Thanks for informations guys, I'll keep them in mind when testing other stuff ^^

No no don't remove it, they are still very good.. The only one that was sketchy is the 0:44 - 0:46. They are still perfectly fine and can still work.

 

[Kirito]

Okay, Naotora's strengths and weaknesses so far?

+ Great juggle damage (even on heavies)
+ A good reason to actually use your PL
+ Quick launchers (H+K launches on NH, is i15, a mid kick and has low crush frames)
+ Great whiff punishment (6K is your main tool for getting in - excellent range and stuns, 6K4K is a hard-to-react-to launcher)
+ i11 K and i12 6K
+ Above average throw damage (6T is awesome since it does good damage and hits the wall)
+ 236K is great for getting your opponent to the wall and triggering dangerzones

- Absolutely bad stun game
- Terrible hold damage (maybe even worse than Christie's, though at least it does some damage unlike Alpha)
- Mid punch hold should detect wall and stage boundaries like Phase-4's
- Hilariously bad mixups (predicatble in-string mixups and few moves are useful in stun)
- Very, very predictable (Leifang and Hayabusa are probably her worst matchup because of how easy she is to hold)
- Very unsafe
- Gets Hi-Counter Hit when interrupted mid-string (6K string and 4KK variants)
- 4K string variants are shitty - 4KK is slow, reactable and can be easily interrupted on block, 4K4K and 4K2K leave you BT so it's a free 100+ dmg for everyone if you end your string on block with those)
- Slow (i11 jab, i14 6P and i14 low P, i16 3P)
- IFC is useless outside of PL (IFC 2K is somewhat useful for unholdable setups and the GB is nice)
- Very few mid/low tracking moves (Christie will have a field day with Naotora) which aren't even that useful on CH (2H+K knocks opponent down on CH instead of keeping them stunned)

 

[KING JAIMY]

Okay, Naotora's strengths and weaknesses so far?

+ Great juggle damage (even on heavies)
+ A good reason to actually use your PL
+ Quick launchers (H+K launches on NH, is i15, a mid kick and has low crush frames)
+ Great whiff punishment (6K is your main tool for getting in - excellent range and stuns, 6K4K is a hard-to-react-to launcher)
+ i11 K and i12 6K
+ Above average throw damage (6T is awesome since it does good damage and hits the wall)
+ 236K is great for getting your opponent to the wall and triggering dangerzones

- Absolutely bad stun game
- Terrible hold damage (maybe even worse than Christie's, though at least it does some damage unlike Alpha)
- Mid punch hold should detect wall and stage boundaries like Phase-4's
- Hilariously bad mixups (predicatble in-string mixups and few moves are useful in stun)
- Very, very predictable (Leifang and Hayabusa are probably her worst matchup because of how easy she is to hold)
- Very unsafe
- Gets Hi-Counter Hit when interrupted mid-string (6K string and 4KK variants)
- 4K string variants are shitty - 4KK is slow, reactable and can be easily interrupted on block, 4K4K and 4K2K leave you BT so it's a free 100+ dmg for everyone if you end your string on block with those)
- Slow (i11 jab, i14 6P and i14 low P, i16 3P)
- IFC is useless outside of PL (IFC 2K is somewhat useful for unholdable setups and the GB is nice)
- Very few mid/low tracking moves (Christie will have a field day with Naotora) which aren't even that useful on CH (2H+K knocks opponent down on CH instead of keeping them stunned)

Agree with everything on the list.

I would like to add that a hard counter against Naotora is Helena. Like seriously, I'm starting to believe the match-up is 7-3 in Helena's favor. Helena can beat the shit out of all of Naotora's high strike pressure using just 3_P, her Bokuho duck and all her other ridiculous crushes. Helena also has a better CQC game, stun mix-ups, better overall speed, annoying throws, better string delay and better close range pokes. The only thing advantageous for Naotora in this match-up with probably the ranged game, in which Helena doesn't excel at.

Another good counter against Naotora is Marie Rose. She has better speed than Naotora, has a way safer playstyle, has a superior 3P and 3K (their 3P's and 3K's are essentially the same) and has devasting expert holds which work well in Marie's favor because, like you said, Naotora is very predictable. Marie can also interrupt a lot of Naotora's strings with Rondo parry and Minuet hop. Minuet is a very good tool against Naotora's 6K string. Marie can also use 3H+K and 1P to crush a lot of Naotora's strings.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Believe it or not but she may actually get improvements somewhere down the line. At least she isn't Ein or Marie Rose where they are intentionally made that way no matter how many improvements Ein & Marie Rose community gives them. Pretty sure they'll touch Naotora since she has other errors such as bad attack animations etc. (Even her 236K can be beaten out mid distance by Kasumi's 3P which leads Naotora standing for whatever reason.) Hitbox scenarios and bad animations such as that. You could even do properly timed back dashes after blocking 6PK setups which leaves her at a disadvantage of -10 and greater.

Akira gets a free 2P launch setup that leads to 70+ damage because one of her potential high-mid attacks leaves her "jumping." 80+ from a slope that will grant you a knee. Close to 100 if you get a wall. The launch height is even higher because it's considered CH.

It is still unclear if her overall design is turning out to be truly this (Minus the bad animation things and positioning that will be fixed.) or she was actually rushed with rough opening gaps that they may change so that she does not get beaten out by the most simple of things. If it turns out to be #1, that would be quite disappointing.

 

[KasumiLover]

I hope they add more on to her jumping stance, I feel like it has more potential besides the two follow ups she has already, it feels a little incomplete.

 

[DestructionBomb]

If you add more jumping stances you are granting situations and gaps for free combos due to her being in the air. No jumping stances. I don't play this character, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be sane on the matter here.

If I was insane, I'd leave everything there and not give any worries...but even I am far too kindhearted for that.

 

[KasumiLover]

If you add more jumping stances you are granting situations and gaps for free combos due to her being in the air. No jumping stances.

I didn't mean more jumping stances, just more options to the one she already has. And although it'd be risky, I don't see much of a reason of why it'd be major. A lot of characters in DOA have risky stances with good follow up options, right?

 

[DestructionBomb]

I didn't mean more jumping stances, just more options to the one she already has. And although it'd be risky, I don't see much of a reason of why it'd be major. A lot of characters in DOA have risky stances with good follow up options, right?

See now this is where the problem lies because this leads to situations where you are providing more "sneaking" chances for the opponent to not respect neutral and going for free launch setups that normally requires a launch or does not require any sorts of stun. It "can" possibly (varies for character) become a major reason by converting most attacks to a "jumping" position because certain characters in the game even have access to relaunches or even refloats that can launch her higher for being in Jumping position along with a CH effect in play here.

Because of that, an opponent could accidentally mash here and possibly perform a critical launch level 1-2 setups for free because they chose to disrespect there from a move that is generally slower on startup from Naotora that leaves her jumping, except that it actually worked for the opponent without any thoughts behind it, see what I mean here? but then people would request the scenarios to amp up the moves for her jumping attacks to not get interrupted, which you are also eliminating the 50/50 factor of providing the opponent to not high crush Naotora at all so it puts Naotora in a favorable situation where she is not suppose to. This is where potential problems lie.

Which leads to the solution of converting most of her moves to standing so that the opponent has to make a read on where to interrupt or adapt to free cancelled situations with likely change of certain moves to be increased in +mms. Possibly even changing certain frame advantage of her own arsenal to something different. You want to force the opponent to make wrong decisions, not put too much risk on situations where it becomes a character flaw along with the opponent realizing that it is indeed a character flaw and taking advantage from it.

Ex: Hayabusa is expecting KK from Naotora, so the Hayabusa player will try to perform his WR launcher to crush the KK strings, but then Hayabusa realized that Naotora performed a move that leaves her in jumping position, so he may get a free half circle throw (The noodle 236 Air T for you being in the air.) or a combo that normally works within a critical stun level launch height, basically he got that for free without even realizing it and may even leave a thank you note right after for doing it in the first place.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Wait are you speaking about 9P?

 

[KasumiLover]

Wait are you speaking about 9P?

Yeah that's the one I'm referring to. I get what you're saying though, since a lot of her attacks like the 6K Kawayagi kick string have the status considering her jumping, and that puts her at the risk you've stated.

 

[DestructionBomb]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 9P. Apologies there, thought you meant her natural attack strings converted to jumping.

Surprised 9P does not have an attack option that leaves her BT. I once came up with a completely new move named 9P8K () that is a high and launches only on CH but also puts her BT for a BT2P setup that can possibly work in open space if she gets the hit (Obviously the launch height from the move has to be lower so that the BT2P can connect.) If I was such a generous guy, 9P8K would wallsplat for a 3rd option other than 6K4K or 6PK4K for wallsplat ideas that leaves her BT.