DOA5LR Is it me or is this game too random?

[iHajinShinobi]

well I won't insist, I'm glad you people enjoy this system as it is, but for me I'm not liking it at all.

It's not to your liking because you're learning a new game with a different system. This is going to be the case with most games anyway. Whatever other fighting game you play or previously played, you like it because you spent time with it. The same will be said with this game.

You cannot blame the game or it's system, simply because you have no patience for learning a new game. Obviously, it's going to be intimidating when there is so much you have to learn in a different game. DOA's learning curve steep because there is a lot to grasp. What makes it easier to pick new games (at the very least) is when your actual fighting game fundamentals are really strong, or just pretty good.

Me picking up Smash 4 and learning Megaman, a completely new and unqiue character to the Smash series, is a lot for me to grasp compared to a game with traditional movement. And having to learn the game's system and general flow of play are just going to be obvious barriers before you'll actually start getting pretty good in the game.

It's easy to say a game isn't for you when you aren't accustomed to it yet. Making yourself learn the game and starting to understand it's flow is when you'll start showing improvement.

 

[FreeStepDutch]

well it's not a new system, but not being ever to be able to be in control of a combat. Even with perfect knowledge of the game, sooner or later you will be stunned, so sooner or later you will face a 1/5 guess.Since you can free cancel almost every string, you can never 100% assure a read, so it will still be a guess. I don't like those odds,and no game puts you in a position with such low probability, that's why I call it random.

That's why I'm liking Tekken more lately with the new changes. The new counter works with all highs and mids, so doa5 1/5 is 1/3 in Tekken. That's a lot less random for me, and takes a lot of the memorizing away from being critical in the game. Obviously counters have advantages like giving damage and even build an offense with some characters, but I prefer less benefits in exchange of a more solid game plan. So my problem is not the system per se, but that I like reasonable odds when either attacking or defending.

I understand that for all time players of doa, it's not much of an issue, most characters change frame data/stun state/etc but their strings are mostly the same but for a few moves, and you have to learn how to fight maybe 5-6 new chars, but for the newcomer old players have a huge advantage, and no tool to compensate, so this game somehow alienates newcomers, and it's only apparently accessible on the surface. Basically this game asks too much of newcomers with so many other games that have easier tools to deal with pressure and defense

 

[FreeStepDutch]

another thing I hate of this game is that if you guess wrong, you add a lot of damage to the combo you get, basically building a touch of death combo that can take more than half your life, something I absolutely hate in any fighter

 

[Argentus]

another thing I hate of this game is that if you guess wrong, you add a lot of damage to the combo you get, basically building a touch of death combo that can take more than half your life, something I absolutely hate in any fighter

Then don't guess.

Read.

The entire idea is to prevent people from going on autopilot, to make them think about how to attack, out if fear of punishment.

 

[darkthunder106]

well it's not a new system, but not being ever to be able to be in control of a combat. Even with perfect knowledge of the game, sooner or later you will be stunned, so sooner or later you will face a 1/5 guess.Since you can free cancel almost every string, you can never 100% assure a read, so it will still be a guess. I don't like those odds,and no game puts you in a position with such low probability, that's why I call it random.

You do have the Guard Button.
Of course you can not block everything, but you have to block something.
That guarding game will give you the "Tekken 1/3 guess" in both standing and crouching position. Feel better now ?

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

well I won't insist, I'm glad you people enjoy this system as it is, but for me I'm not liking it at all.

If that's the case then you may want to stop. if you see even a high level match and you still don't think it looks like something you want to do, then that just may be a matter of preference regardless of your current skill.

 

[Lulu]

well it's not a new system, but not being ever to be able to be in control of a combat. Even with perfect knowledge of the game, sooner or later you will be stunned, so sooner or later you will face a 1/5 guess.Since you can free cancel almost every string, you can never 100% assure a read, so it will still be a guess. I don't like those odds,and no game puts you in a position with such low probability, that's why I call it random.

That's why I'm liking Tekken more lately with the new changes. The new counter works with all highs and mids, so doa5 1/5 is 1/3 in Tekken. That's a lot less random for me, and takes a lot of the memorizing away from being critical in the game. Obviously counters have advantages like giving damage and even build an offense with some characters, but I prefer less benefits in exchange of a more solid game plan. So my problem is not the system per se, but that I like reasonable odds when either attacking or defending.

I understand that for all time players of doa, it's not much of an issue, most characters change frame data/stun state/etc but their strings are mostly the same but for a few moves, and you have to learn how to fight maybe 5-6 new chars, but for the newcomer old players have a huge advantage, and no tool to compensate, so this game somehow alienates newcomers, and it's only apparently accessible on the surface. Basically this game asks too much of newcomers with so many other games that have easier tools to deal with pressure and defense

You do realise as a new comer in a different fighting like.... lets say Tekken..... has an extremely high execution barrier and few defensive options.
Thats how my experience has been with other fighting games. but DoA on the other hand empowers people who play defensively...... the stun and hold system ensures that your opponent needs to out fox you multiple times to get through your defenses before they launch you into the air leaving you helpless. wouldn't that be better for New Comers ?
Or would you rather that new comer get side stepped once and punished with a massive guaranteed juggle ?
BTW. Don't Memorize moves.... you already know free cancel makes that pointless..... you should be studying behavior. Yes its a guessing game but its definitely not random, everything your opponent does says something about their behavoir and that behavoir dictates which types of attacks they plan on using. If you're ignoring your opponent and truly believe you can play odds with the Hold System then you won't like this game at all.
For example... I like oppening up my offens with low and mid kicks and I since I play a somewhat slowish character I abuse the living hell out of offensive holds.... if you're not trying to read what I do then you'l never beat me.... but if you are then the odds are no longer 1 in 5..... they are 1 in 3.... and as you get better at the game you can even predict that my panick behavior is using Completed Strings instead of mixing it up.... thats guaranteed damage and it won't even feel like you guessed it.
Just like in The Karate Kid

 

[Lulu]

On a side note.....
Why does everybody keep saying DoA is hard and has a steep learning curve ? the vanilla version was easy to get into for instant fun and Ultimate's Tutorial will have you ready to compete in less than a week.... the game is super easy....... the soul crushing challenge comes from your opponents....
Its like Chess..... anybody can play chess... the system is easy learn and remember..... the difficulty comes in when you factor in a human entity whos going twist and bend this system in its entirety to Capture your king.
The game is just a medium in which you exert your intellectual prowess on your opponent

 

[KING JAIMY]

another thing I hate of this game is that if you guess wrong, you add a lot of damage to the combo you get, basically building a touch of death combo that can take more than half your life, something I absolutely hate in any fighter

Something like 1/2 of your health bar gone is rather extreme though. If this is the case, then you must've made a huge mistake (e.g. when you take damage from a Hi-Counter stun and juggle setup or from a certain Hi-Counter Throw from Alpha ). In contrast to what most people think, the game isn't about guessing but reading. Knowing your opponent is half the battle. Concentrate on what they are doing and try to react properly. Obviously, reading your opponent correctly all the time isn't something you master in just a few days. It may take months, or even years depending on your pace of learning. You just have to be patient and learn from your mistakes.

On a side note.....
Why does everybody keep saying DoA is hard and has a steep learning curve ? the vanilla version was easy to get into for instant fun and Ultimate's Tutorial will have you ready to compete in less than a week.... the game is super easy....... the soul crushing challenge comes from your opponents....
Its like Chess..... anybody can play chess... the system is easy learn and remember..... the difficulty comes in when you factor in a human entity whos going twist and bend this system in its entirety to Capture your king.
The game is just a medium in which you exert your intellectual prowess on your opponent

Its concepts are really straightforward, but the amount of depth you need to get into is ridiculous. One of the game's most important aspects is to learn the characters' movestrings. Learn what is unsafe and how to punish, learn which strings are static (strings which always have a fixed follow-up) and react to them, learn the range of each move and how and when to whiff punish with those moves. Then you have the mindgames, which are important for netting Hi-Counter damage for example. Hell, I'm not even talking about the whole environmental game, another big part of DOA. Also, knowing guaranteed setups are a must as well. Another thing is that you need to have the knowledge of max damage combos, whether it be after a certain stun level, CB, hold or throw.

In conclusion, the system mechanics are indeed relatively easy, but to master the game you need to know every single property of each move and have an outstanding mindgame.

 

[ninemil]

In conclusion, the system mechanics are indeed relatively easy, but to master the game you need to know every single property of each move and have an outstanding mindgame.

This. Watching two great players like Hajin and Corp go at it should pretty much instantly confirm that execution and mechanics are the least of your worries.

That psyche game. Nothing better than a close match between two guys who know their DoA shit.

 

[Lulu]

Something like 1/2 of your health bar gone is rather extreme though. If this is the case, then you must've made a huge mistake (e.g. when you take damage from a Hi-Counter stun and juggle setup or from a certain Hi-Counter Throw from Alpha ). In contrast to what most people think, the game isn't about guessing but reading. Knowing your opponent is half the battle. Concentrate on what they are doing and try to react properly. Obviously, reading your opponent correctly all the time isn't something you master in just a few days. It may take months, or even years depending on your pace of learning. You just have to be patient and learn from your mistakes.

Its concepts are really straightforward, but the amount of depth you need to get into is ridiculous. One of the game's most important aspects is to learn the characters' movestrings. Learn what is unsafe and how to punish, learn which strings are static (strings which always have a fixed follow-up) and react to them, learn the range of each move and how and when to whiff punish with those moves. Then you have the mindgames, which are important for netting Hi-Counter damage for example. Hell, I'm not even talking about the whole environmental game, another big part of DOA. Also, knowing guaranteed setups are a must as well. Another thing is that you need to have the knowledge of max damage combos, whether it be after a certain stun level, CB, hold or throw.

In conclusion, the system mechanics are indeed relatively easy, but to master the game you need to know every single property of each move and have an outstanding mindgame.

And what a fun learning experience it is... well... except for the frame data.... frame data is important but boring. but all in all its great fun.

 

[Argentus]

On a side note.....
Why does everybody keep saying DoA is hard and has a steep learning curve ? the vanilla version was easy to get into for instant fun and Ultimate's Tutorial will have you ready to compete in less than a week.... the game is super easy....... the soul crushing challenge comes from your opponents....
Its like Chess..... anybody can play chess... the system is easy learn and remember..... the difficulty comes in when you factor in a human entity whos going twist and bend this system in its entirety to Capture your king.
The game is just a medium in which you exert your intellectual prowess on your opponent

For the same reason this thread exists. Some people can't adjust for mind games over execution. That makes it hard to master.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

well it's not a new system, but not being ever to be able to be in control of a combat. Even with perfect knowledge of the game, sooner or later you will be stunned, so sooner or later you will face a 1/5 guess.Since you can free cancel almost every string, you can never 100% assure a read, so it will still be a guess. I don't like those odds,and no game puts you in a position with such low probability, that's why I call it random.

Again, it is not a 5 to 1 factor of guessing or random, that is not the game's doing, it is yours. You are forcing yourself to guess just because the hold exist. That is not what the hold system is for, misinterpreting the system because you're learning does not mean the game is random. And I never said it's a new system, I said when you're learning a different game that things will seem intimidating because there is plenty of information to learn and having to grow accustomed to the game's system will take time and practice, and play experience. As it will in any fighting game.


You most certainly can read someone's free cancelling or string delay. How? From play experience, studying, and adapting to an opponent's habits. You're not in control of any momentum because, like everyone is trying to tell you, you're still learning the game. You're just being too dismissive to listen.

Of course you're going to get hit, every single player in every single fighting game gets hit. You're not ever going to take damage or get put into situations that aren't favoring you, or will make you guess. This is in every game, this is not related to just DOA. Please stop trying to use that as your excuse for the game.

Please read what I said earlier;

You cannot blame the game or it's system, simply because you have no patience for learning a new game. Obviously, it's going to be intimidating when there is so much you have to learn in a different game. DOA's learning curve steep because there is a lot to grasp. What makes it easier to pick new games (at the very least) is when your actual fighting game fundamentals are really strong, or just pretty good.

And with that said, another game like Virtua Fighter or even King of Fighters are similiar in that there is a lot of information to learn. And KOF requires you to play multiple characters and have the execution for all of them. All the while learning several different match ups at one time.

That's why I'm liking Tekken more lately with the new changes.

So play Tekken then.

I understand that for all time players of doa, it's not much of an issue, most characters change frame data/stun state/etc but their strings are mostly the same but for a few moves, and you have to learn how to fight maybe 5-6 new chars, but for the newcomer old players have a huge advantage, and no tool to compensate, so this game somehow alienates newcomers, and it's only apparently accessible on the surface. Basically this game asks too much of newcomers with so many other games that have easier tools to deal with pressure and defense

No, this is certainly far from being true. Anyone new to a different game can definitely learn the new game they're playing and eventually get good at it. There are plenty of different players that play multiple games at once and have proven to be either really strong in them, or pretty decent all around. Patience and the willing to learn and improve are required, this is what I'm seeing you refuse to have.

Obviously, veteran players of said game will be miles of ahead of you in that game, because they've played it longer than you. Doesn't mean you can't catch up. Again, the proof is within multiple fighting games, easiest example can be Kwiggles compared to Master. Of course and obviously Master is still an incredibly strong player, still a top player. He's played DOA for 13+ years competitively. But Kwiggles is also considered a top player with less experience in comparison, as he's proven so throughout DOA5U.

another thing I hate of this game is that if you guess wrong, you add a lot of damage to the combo you get, basically building a touch of death combo that can take more than half your life

If you're taking big damage for being punished, it's not the game's fault, it's yours for making mistakes. And as it should be, you shouldn't be allowed not to go unpunished for your own mistakes. Again, this is not DOA specific, it's in any game, you get punished for making mistakes. And there are no "touch of death combos" in DOA.

something I absolutely hate in any fighter

May I ask, why are you playing fighting games then?

 

[FreeStepDutch]

Well anything that I say would be redundant. I'll probably keep playing doa in any case, at least until t7 or sfv come out. Even though I sound negative, I really like the game, simply there are mechanics that I'm not fond of.

I think argentus nailed it, I'm probably more on the execution side than on mind games, or at least I'm not comfortable relying so much on them.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Redundant because you're selective reading since you're dismissive of what I've said throughout page 1 and 2. Mix ups are and can be part of yomi, same can be said for the "no mix up mix-up". This is part of fighting games, especially at a very high level. Knowing your opponent is an important piece of obtaining victory.

 

[Lulu]

For the same reason this thread exists. Some people can't adjust for mind games over execution. That makes it hard to master.

I wonder if execution based fighting games have an exact opposite of a thread like this.
I can imagine imagin my younger self complaining Street Fighter is too predictable.

 

[KING JAIMY]

I wonder if execution based fighting games have an exact opposite of a thread like this.
I can imagine imagin my younger self complaining Street Fighter is too predictable.

Every game has an 'execution' and 'mindgame' aspect though. The emphasis for each game, however, is different. DoA is much more reliant on mindgames compared to execution. For a game like Tekken it is the exact opposite. In my opinion you should adapt to where the emphasis lies.

 

[Lulu]

Every game has an 'execution' and 'mindgame' aspect though. The emphasis for each game, however, is different. DoA is much more reliant on mindgames compared to execution. For a game like Tekken it is the exact opposite. In my opinion you should adapt to where the emphasis lies.

Maybe..... but not with Tekken.... I know for sure I definitely don't like Tekken. Virtua Fighter 5 is the most likely game I would try next due to the simularities it shares with DoA (plus I already have the trial in my xbox, $15 and its all mine).... and then from there who knows.... Perhaps I'l have the confidence to try Tekken again.
Oh crap.... Smash.... I have to Play Smash one of these days. I'l use that as my foundation into 2D fighting games.

 

[Ictinike]

You know, this DOA was the first I actually played. I'm an online warrior, but I learned to play pretty well in other's opinions. This is my little brother's first DOA and he plays well enough, he even throw punishes, so, I would have to agree with those that say it does not alienate.

DOA gets a lot of flack, but the tutorial and training mode is great. Combo challenge may not have ideal combos, but it's a good start to help you get a feel of a character. Heck, it even gives you tips on how to find some characters. If I needed to learn more, I would look stuff up here at FSD.

My point is, all the tools to get better is there, you just have to look and be willing to learn. It sounds to me like you're upset you are getting punished for making a mistake, or two, or three, or four. You have blocking, counters, OH, sidesteps, crushes, parries, stagger and slow escaping.

Coming from a Hitomi player, I have a hard time against an opponent with a parry or just holds block. Sure, my lows stun, but it's not deep enough for anything to happen. I can grab, but if you keep holding block there is nothing I can do but chip away at you with weak lows and a throw. If I do get an offensive going you have a chance to hold high, mid, or low and If I get caught it's back to square one for me. Really, you just have to worry about mids and lows since a low ducks under highs, anyway. But you're upset about your odds?

 

[jjinkou2]

wow ! Plenty of good information here but i think the way it 's written, it's counter productive. Why? because

1) The initial question was two folds: fact (randomness) and emotional (desperate)
2) One question and a avalanche of answers from several guys, it's like everyone is falling on you. above all, good information is disseminate through all the messages.

As expected, surrounded by experts, the newcomer feels more alone than before , and tends to abandon or indeed finds counter arguments ("tekken is better").

I think that this should have 2 answers:

1. Fact : => redirect newcomers to a tutorial on how to train effectively. full stop to the discussion. RTFM ! [1]
2. Emotional : the most important point ! Why did you come to play DOA : for the FUN. Why did you stay ? For the FUN ! [2]

[1] Breaking Down the Game: A Training Suggestion for Aspiring Players


[2] Personnally I came for the girls but i stayed for the mind game. but both are for the FUN. If you can't find the fun in a game, stop it , have a break, play the piano, go to the theater, spend time with real friends eating burritos. You must take pleasure if you want to invest your time. That's the key of every passion.