Kokoro Changes in 5U

[Bushido]

So, I just got the game and here's a quick rundown of major changes:

Tracking.

• Nothing.

Throws.

• All of her throws got a damage buff. Except 214T, which is hilarious.
  
• Heichu now only gives +11 instead of +15.
• 4T still is only +8.
• Heichu P still isn't viable.

Strikes

• 6P+K is -8, but impossible to punish. You have no choice but to respect that P follow-up or you'll get counter blown.
  
• 33P no longer stuns on NH, but is only -4.
  
• On block, most of her frames remain the same (-7, -6, -4, -3) In other words, she's still safe.
  
• She's a bit slower now. An example being 3K4K, used to only have 18 frames, now 21.
  
• The BT P+K bound only occurs in a deep stun.
  
• BT 4K still sitdown stuns.
• Very slight damage nerf.
  
• New string (236P+K P) gives a nice stun and is only -5 on block.You can also Heichu from it.
  
• 44P is the new sabaki. Active in first 3 frames (I think?) and only catches mid P. Puts them at threshold. -11 on block
  
• PP6P stun isn't very deep anymore.
• PP is -7 on NH.
  
• The PP2KK FT no longer works.
• New SS P+K, -4 on block. Only gives a knockback.
  
• 2K and variants are now -15 on NH.
  
• 8P6P advantage nerfed to +17 with SE. No longer guarantees 7K.
  
• 1PT and 3PT still give +5.
  
  That's about it. It'll definitely take some getting used to, but she's still going to be strong in 5u. This is just a quick list, but there are some more I'll go into sometime later this week.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

So in other words, she became worse. A lot worse. Nerfs across the board with no actual buffs. Disappointing to say the least. But perhaps she has some hidden stuff, who knows. Can't say I'm super excited when my copy arrives.

 

[Bushido]

So in other words, she became worse. A lot worse. Nerfs across the board with no actual buffs. Disappointing to say the least. But perhaps she has some hidden stuff, who knows. Can't say I'm super excited when my copy arrives.

Not really, she's just changed a little. She's still pretty strong. It'll definitely take some adjusting though.

 

[StrikerSashi]

46PP was tracking before as well.

 

[PgoezinC]

I think people are getting into a premature panic. Again. This same thing happened when details for the last patch was revealed... everyone immediately assumed nerfs were rampant, such as the increase in frames of heichu, which we all know was actually a buff if anything at all.

Overall, after one evening of poking around, I don't think Kokoro is any worse. Of course, personal play style is a factor, so for me personally, I look at all the current panic and just shake my head.

Since Bushido has conveniently laid out most of the changes, I'll just work off that to display the other side of the coin.

Tracking:
The 2nd p of 46pp always tracked. It isn't new.

I'll use this opportunity to say that Kokoro's vulnerability to being SS'd is not simply due to the lack of tracking moves. If anything, the bigger culprit is the fact that all her strings are short. SS is most effective against a poke or at the end of a string, as we all should know by now that strings themselves track. SS the middle of a 4 or 5 hit string of all linear attacks... what happens? You will still get clipped by the ensuing strike, regardless if it's linear. Since Kokoro's strings are short, it's "safe" to SS after a couple strikes without the fear of the back end of a string following you. But hey, that's just my take on it. Despite the endless outcry of her lack of tracking, I know that when I lose, it's not because the other player was SS'ing me all day. I successfully SS just as much as my opponents (if not more). I lose because they played better.

Throws:
Essentially, the only caution flag is heichu being "nerfed" to 11 frames. This is not a nerf to me for a very similar reason the increase in frames to heichu in doa5 wasn't a nerf either.

1. Is there any follow up attack any of you were doing previously that won't still work at +11? I'd assume not, since any feasible attack with +11 will still beat out a jab. So aside from four digits on paper, why is it a nerf?

2. I see it as a buff, again, for a similar reason the increase in frames to heichu in doa5 is better. Let's consider the frames of a follow up throw. Just like how the "old" heichu would whiff if done too early, a throw attempt after heichu would also whiff... meaning we'd have to delay the throw. Well, with it now being +11, we no longer have to delay 214T. Also, in my testing, 66T won't whiff either, despite being 10 frames. I even tried to whiff in training, and it always connected. And for what it's worth, you can 236T repeatedly... and it doesn't whiff. I'm sure if a person kepty trying, then yes, it will miss, but the notion that you have to try to whiff a throw after heichu is my point.

Strikes:
I find it ridiculous to complain about the first strike of a string to be a disadvantage on NH... because that's how it is for everyone... always has, and always will... because it's a string. What? PP is -7 on NH???? 6p+k is -8????? -_____-

The slight drop in frames after pp6p stun isn't a big deal for me. It's still a large enough advantage to guarantee that you get the next attack. Again, is there a feasible attack anyone did before that can't be done now? Probably not. Besides, I view it more as a way to keep the opponent honest so that I can heichu later.

It's getting waaaay too late, and I should be sleeping, so I'll end with my take on the new sabaki. I can see it being a real pain in the ass for opponents. I'll use Kokoro as the opponent as an example.

1. 6p6p, you can sabaki after the first 6p. You now have the opponent in threshold.
2. 6ppp, all us Kokoro players know the effectiveness of this: 6pp > 214T. Well, you can sabaki after 6pp, putting the opponent in threshold if they tried the 3rd p, and at the same time destroying the 214T.

I would imagine this principle could be applied to many situations against other characters.

 

[Bushido]

46PP was tracking before as well.

I honestly didn't see it, but I guess it was.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

236T now being +11 instead of +15 means she cannot use P or 6P to get them into a stun. She is forced to use Heichu P (lol), 2P and P+K. Just means less options for her.

Her linearity is a huge problem. You may not lose because your opponent SSed all day, but her being ridiculously easy to SS didn't help. But it was like this is 5, so I'm already used to pulling my hair out against Christie.

PP6P stun was already nerfed in 1.03, to a crappy +7 or something (on NH), but I assume PP6P nerf was on CH? Hopefully not to match the NH stun lol.

PP being -7 isn't a big deal. So many different followups. 6P+K now being -8 vs +3 (1.03) now means that move is pretty useless. Plus the ender is unsafe-ish on block (-6). If you're getting a CH with this move often, your opponent is doing something wrong.

Then her sitdowns are removed or nerfed? Ugh.

The point is, all of these are nerfs any which way you look at it. And what did she get in return? A mid P sabaki. So we lost frames, sitdowns, damage output, and stayed linear for 44P. I'd trade that for a return of all of the above (or evene just 6P+K really).

Disclaimer: I'm just bitter over my favourite character becoming worse with every patch/iteration. 1.03 she still kept her frames, and gained a low NH stun, so I accepted the other nerfs. In 5U, 44P isn't enough compensation to get shafted so hard.

 

[Bushido]

Strikes:
I find it ridiculous to complain about the first strike of a string to be a disadvantage on NH... because that's how it is for everyone... always has, and always will... because it's a string. What? PP is -7 on NH???? 6p+k is -8????? -_____-

The slight drop in frames after pp6p stun isn't a big deal for me. It's still a large enough advantage to guarantee that you get the next attack. Again, is there a feasible attack anyone did before that can't be done now? Probably not. Besides, I view it more as a way to keep the opponent honest so that I can heichu later.

It's getting waaaay too late, and I should be sleeping, so I'll end with my take on the new sabaki. I can see it being a real pain in the ass for opponents. I'll use Kokoro as the opponent as an example.

1. 6p6p, you can sabaki after the first 6p. You now have the opponent in threshold.

2. 6ppp, all us Kokoro players know the effectiveness of this: 6pp > 214T. Well, you can sabaki after 6pp, putting the opponent in threshold if they tried the 3rd p, and at the same time destroying the 214T.

I would imagine this principle could be applied to many situations against other characters.

The information here isn't correct at all.
PP6P stun being brought down to +7 is kind of a big thing. It doesn't guarantee any followup.

1. You can't sabaki after a 6P. For one reason, 6P doesn't stun on NH. If you meant the second 6P, understandable. Even if you tried to do 6P6P > 44P, it's impossible and extremely risky. Why? Because you have a non-stunning 6P mid, followed by a stunning 6P mid, then the stun isn't deep enough for a 16 frame mid.

2. 6PP > 214T doesn't work, or at least it isn't supposed to. If you're talking about doing 6PP > 214T on block, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage because you're at -8 when 6PP is finished. Meaning that your 214T now takes 20 frames to execute. Easy hi counter for the opponent. Sabaki after 6PP also doesn't work. For one, the 16 frame mid coming from a free cancelled 6PP isn't fast enough to extend the stun. For two, you'll most likely still get caught by a hold if they were expecting the full 6PPP string.

The sabaki is used as a defensive yomi tool, not a stun extender.

 

[PgoezinC]

236T now being +11 instead of +15 means she cannot use P or 6P to get them into a stun. She is forced to use Heichu P (lol), 2P and P+K. Just means less options for her.

Fair enough. Going back to my previous comment, my opinions will have division based on the notion that we all play differently. Extending the stun after heichu is certainly a valid tactic, it's just one that I myself didn't partake. I just stuck with 2p and p+k for the stun (obviously p is a joke) except for the opponents that are quick to react and use holds. Against those players, using something like 6p would just get held anyway under the anticipation of the normal p+k. So to deal with that, I resorted to throwing after heichu. And due to the difference in frames, I'd whiff the throw from time to time (just like I'd whiff the "old" heichu on occassion), so the +11 benefits me individually because I can immediately input 214T.

Her linearity is a huge problem. You may not lose because your opponent SSed all day, but her being ridiculously easy to SS didn't help. But it was like this is 5, so I'm already used to pulling my hair out against Christie.

I think you might have misunderstood me, or else I didn't explain it well enough. Either case, I wasn't disputing Kokoro's vulnerability to being SS'd, nor was I implying it isn't a detriment. What I meant is that her linear strings are not the singular reason for it. Equally guilty is that her strings are short, so it's much "safer" to attempt a SS.

On a different SS topic, I only play online, but against the really good online players and the occassions I've been able to play tournament players, the SS attempts seem situational. For example, in neutral, you can pretty much expect a SS after 1kk or after a blocked heichu. But then look at PP... it rarely is SS'd, if ever at all, even though every single possible follow up can be SS'd. In fact, it's essentially universally accepted that PP is an excellent entry attack, despite every follow up being 100% susceptible to being SS'd. This is why I feel that players are SS'ing on reaction to particular entry moves, and not necessarily on the basis that you're SS'ing a linear string. This is also why I free cancel the common SS'd moves, such as after 1kk, then proceed with another attack, such as 6kp. The pause after free cancelling causes the follow up attack to clip the SS.

PP6P stun was already nerfed in 1.03, to a crappy +7 or something (on NH), but I assume PP6P nerf was on CH? Hopefully not to match the NH stun lol.

I was referring to NH, but if it was +7 in 1.03, then it's the same in Ultimate. I was thinking it was a larger advantage before. I have yet to check what it is on CH.

Then her sitdowns are removed or nerfed? Ugh.

Unfortunately, her sitdowns were nerfed. You don't get a guaranteed 7k from 8p6p or BT 4k. CB is no longer guaranteed after 8p6p either. That's the one that hurts the most for me.

BT p+k is still guaranteed, and so is 236p. However 236p during a stun causes the new bound, or tumble, or whatever it is. At this point, all I can find as a follow up is 66p+k. I'm not certain what's possible from that new tumble though, so I'm interested to see what players will discover. It would be rather disappointing if all Kokoro can muster in any bound/tumble is just 66p+k.

Other things I'll add:

1. the new SS attack has an almost identical start up animation to SSp/33p. After the start up, there is a delay before impact... so I'm assuming it's to catch opponents that try to hold the SSp.

2. NH 33p doesn't stun, but the SS still does. That's all that matters to me. I rarely landed 33p on NH anyways. It was more of a strike at distance to CH someone.

3. 236p+k, the p follow up causes the same crumple stun as heichu p+k... so I love that you can heichu from 236p+k

 

[StrikerSashi]

People sidestep your PPT?

 

[Bushido]

Fair enough. Going back to my previous comment, my opinions will have division based on the notion that we all play differently. Extending the stun after heichu is certainly a valid tactic, it's just one that I myself didn't partake. I just stuck with 2p and p+k for the stun (obviously p is a joke) except for the opponents that are quick to react and use holds. Against those players, using something like 6p would just get held anyway under the anticipation of the normal p+k. So to deal with that, I resorted to throwing after heichu. And due to the difference in frames, I'd whiff the throw from time to time (just like I'd whiff the "old" heichu on occassion), so the +11 benefits me individually because I can immediately input 214T.

It doesn't matter how fast you input 214T, it's still coming out at i12 no matter what you do. If they strike, you're getting hi counter blown. Coming up against players who hold: If you have good yomi fundamentals, then yes, throw the whiff if you baited; however, If you're just doing Heichu > 214T with +11, it won't work.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

I think for the 6PP >> 214T and 236T >> 214T, he means 6PP hits on NH giving her a slight advantage that he then throws out of. I do it with 6PP (as it gives +11) and it works fairly well. Most people are scared of the 3'rd P, so they block and eat the throw. Once you do this, you can finish the P more freely.

 

[PgoezinC]

The information here isn't correct at all.
PP6P stun being brought down to +7 is kind of a big thing. It doesn't guarantee any followup.

1. You can't sabaki after a 6P. For one reason, 6P doesn't stun on NH. If you meant the second 6P, understandable. Even if you tried to do 6P6P > 44P, it's impossible and extremely risky. Why? Because you have a non-stunning 6P mid, followed by a stunning6P mid, then the stun isn't deep enough for a 30 frame mid.

2. 6PP > 214T doesn't work, or at least it isn't supposed to. If you're talking about doing 6PP > 214T on block, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage because you're at -8 when 6PP is finished. Meaning that your 214T now takes 20 frames to execute. Easy hi counter for the opponent. Sabaki after 6PP also doesn't work. For one, the 30 frame mid coming from a free cancelled 6PP isn't fast enough to extend the stun. For two, you'll most likely still get caught by a hold if they were expecting the full 6PPP string.

The sabaki is used as a defensive yomi tool, not a stun extender.

Bushido, you have managed to completely miss my points entirely. But to be fair, I left out one word from my post under the assumption that people would have factored it in: BLOCK

Go back to what I had said about using sabaki after 6p (for the 6p6p) and 6pp. Block first, then sabaki. Then come back here and report your findings. Your accusation of doing 44p after 6p6p is your own ramblings that have absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

I'm also baffled why you are telling me the sabaki isn't a stun extender, as I never claimed it to be. This also relates to your #2 refute. You're clearly on a different page than me. I'm not even really sure how to close the gap between the two spots you and I are standing because I seriouly have no idea where you went with your second point. In a blind attempt to lay down a bridge, I'll just say to block and then sabaki in the situations I had stated previously.

 

[PgoezinC]

It doesn't matter how fast you input 214T, it's still coming out at i12 no matter what you do. If they strike, you're getting hi counter blown. Coming up against players who hold: If you have good yomi fundamentals, then yes, throw the whiff if you baited; however, If you're just doing Heichu > 214T with +11, it won't work.

*sigh*

Are you trying to just blindly argue? Are you even reading my posts completely? Obviously a person can attack out of a throw from heichu. A person can attack out of ANY throw attempt that isn't an OH. Not once was I claiming you can throw through a strike from heichu. Again, that's just you running with your own rambling.

 

[Musourenka]

8P and 9P after 1T -> 66P+KP+K2P will launch now as opposed to keeping the opponent in max stun threshold.

Sad face.

 

[Bushido]

*sigh*

Are you trying to just blindly argue? Are you even reading my posts completely? Obviously a person can attack out of a throw from heichu. A person can attack out of ANY throw attempt that isn't an OH. Not once was I claiming you can throw through a strike from heichu. Again, that's just you running with your own rambling.

Bushido, you have managed to completely miss my points entirely. But to be fair, I left out one word from my post under the assumption that people would have factored it in: BLOCK

Go back to what I had said about using sabaki after 6p (for the 6p6p) and 6pp. Block first, then sabaki. Then come back here and report your findings. Your accusation of doing 44p after 6p6p is your own ramblings that have absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

I'm also baffled why you are telling me the sabaki isn't a stun extender, as I never claimed it to be. This also relates to your #2 refute. You're clearly on a different page than me. I'm not even really sure how to close the gap between the two spots you and I are standing because I seriouly have no idea where you went with your second point. In a blind attempt to lay down a bridge, I'll just say to block and then sabaki in the situations I had stated previously.

Oh my goodness. Can you read? I'm just pointing out paper facts on the things you're going on about that most likely only work online. You're claiming 214T can blow through a strike by saying Heichu > 214T is viable. You're claiming the sabaki is a stun starter/extender by saying to block and going for the sabaki at neutral. I'm sorry, but unless you're expecting a mid, why on earth would you do that? #2 connects to your #2, perhaps you should read a little more. Everything I'm saying is just facts. You can ramble on about your opinion and lag tactics, but you can't dispute facts. I'm not going to waste my time talking to brick wall. Choose to ignore facts if you want.

 

[PgoezinC]

Oh my goodness. Can you read? I'm just pointing out paper facts on the things you're going on about that most likely only work online. You're claiming 214T can blow through a strike by saying Heichu > 214T is viable. You're claiming the sabaki is a stun starter/extender by saying to block and going for the sabaki at neutral. I'm sorry, but unless you're expecting a mid, why on earth would you do that? #2 connects to your #2, perhaps you should read a little more. Everything I'm saying is just facts. You can ramble on about your opinion and lag tactics, but you can't dispute facts. I'm not going to waste my time talking to brick wall. Choose to ignore facts if you want.

Hey, you stole my line! First, I never said what you are saying aren't facts. What I'm saying is your "facts" have no "factual" relation to the points I'm trying to make. Hence, you're on a different page from me.

Aaaaaand once again, I never claimed you can throw through a strike from a heichu grab. Feel free to quote me saying otherwise. You have completely missed my points that FlamingMuffin grasped. But again, to be fair, I left out certain details under the simple assumption that the people reading them would be able to fill in the blanks. Apparently that was a mistake.

And since you're calling out my "lag tactics," I will ask you for two things:

1. Please list what my "lag tactics" are (btw, I have a 50mbs connection lol@me having lag)
2. Shall we play some games and post the results here? We haven't played much, but of the handful of games you and I have played, you've won a total of zero. Only one of us needs to hide behind words.

 

[phoenix1985gr]

I think you misunderstand eachother... Pgoezin says that if you heichu throw you get your +11 after which you have the option on 2p, p+k and now another 10 or so frame throw that will connect (assuming of course you opponent doesnt press blindly buttons)

For the sabaki in the example he gave he meant assuming you re fighting another kokoro you can interrupt her 2nd p with the sabaki and put them at threshold (more damage potential than a hold or a punish) you can in general interupt strings with a sabaki if you know whats coming (i think it would be better if it was like fangs where you can parry all mids but you re one hit away from threshold) the problem is that in the senario with strings canceled to throws you re geting high counter blown since sabakis are treated as parries

 

[Musourenka]

Every character seems to have had their throw damage increased overall, but Kokoro now is on the lower end of throw damage when compared to other characters.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Maybe they forgot 214T.