Kokoro's Match-up Rating Discussion

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
2K = i15 low with a mid punch and heichu throw follow ups. Potent range and keep out tool

214P = i18 guard break that's +0 on block with very good range. Very good whiff punisher as well as a general defensive spacing tool.

33P = i18 mid punch with good range and high crush properties. General defensive intercept tool.

46P = i17 high punch with a very deep stun for +37 advantage with a mid punch follow up. Potent defensive spacing and intercept tool.

8P = i16 high punch that can transition into heichu throw, a high or mid punch follow ups. General mid range spacing tool

236P = i21 mid punch, slow but strong for whiff punishment (if you choose not to opt for a 66P or something else) because of it's deep +35 sitdown stun midscreen.

236T = i9 naked heichu throw. Using this at different ranges makes it harder to approach Kokoro without strikes because it'll grab you within' range. Furthermore, she has access to her heichu strike follow ups, with P+K being a mid punch guard break that's +2 on block.

P = i10 jab with two very potent follow ups for defensive intercepting (as well as good poking), P2K and PK. P2K hit's low and has a mid punch and heichu throw follow ups. PK hits mid and has delayable follow ups. Both P2K and PK are good defensive options to intercept approaches.

3K = i15 mid kick with a safe follow up, a semi-safe follow up that tracks and a mid punch follow up, all delayable.
 

the space cadet

Active Member
Ehh, nevermind... your term "intercept" is not the same as how I was interpreting it.

Intercepting, to me, simplified, is the JKD principle: Striking an opponent during their own attack. So I actually wondered if you knew something about Kokoro that I wasn't aware of.

Intercepting in your context, is saying X attack is a heichu, X attack is a GB, X attack spaces, and X attack can be delayed, etc, etc...

In that context, every character "has many defensive intercept tools that are mistaken for offensive tools."
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Yeah, every character does have defensive intercept tools, I was only pointing out what Kokoro's are because someone else said that she's meant for rushdown. Most of the above can do just that with careful observation (and reaction), strike the opponent as they attack, or attempt to.

And I'm not saying what X or Y can do, I was saying what they generally are, and stating that such are her intercept tools.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
Kokoro is not really meant for rushdown, since almost everything can be sidestepped and easily countered. She is a glass cannon. She really needs to be precise in her defense and offense.
Even though she's safe, her strings are so short that it's hard to deceive the opponent for long if you're trying to rush down. And honestly, on normal hit they suck. Her 2F+KK is -5, while similar moves like Christie's 2F+KP are at least +3 for example.
She can't go in attacking as easily as some other characters because her up close defense is garbage also. No proper low crush, no proper mid crush, no parries, no significant evasive moves. The moment someone gets a big counter against Kokoro, she's in trouble since she will have more trouble than average breaking the momentum against a good player.

Her best range is mid to long range. Kokoro's main target is to get a counter hit or a stun with a single move from mid range, and press on from that. Not from throwing out a tsunami of moves like Helena.
 

the space cadet

Active Member
Anyone that thinks Kokoro is a rushdown character doesn't know how the hell to use her.

I'm sure most people would agree that she's good at mid-range, however, I don't agree with long range. She's too easily SS'd if you try throwing out her moves that cover distance. 46PP... sure... but the refute is obvious. If a player wants to use her at long range, then that's where we differ. It's preference and where you feel comfortable.

I'd argue Kokoro's optimal fighting distance, aside from mid, and close range. If "you" as a Kokoro player are being SS'd constantly, then quit finishing your strings. FC into another attack. Do it early, and do it enough that the opponent looks to CH you rather than SS you. SS-happy players will quit SS'ing (or become very reluctant) once you stuff them a couple times by FC'ing into another attack. Even something as seemingly basic as PK ~ PK... especially since that's one of the strings everyone will try to SS.

I'm sure there are players that will claim close range is a weak spot because LOL all you gotta do is SS her. I consider it a strength and can justify it with one term: Heichu grab. That is the single aspect that makes Kokoro unique because it forces the opponent to hit buttons when they're blocking, and it is easily one of her greatest strengths. How can one argue that close range is a weakness for Kokoro when perhaps her most powerful asset is obtained at close range? The heichu grab completely changes the mentality of the opponent because they can no longer "comfortably" block. They can no longer strictly think of how they will use their frame advantage, as the notion of "I might have to hit buttons" enters the equation.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
During the first part of your post you're assuming you're the one that has to attack from long range, while the opponent is defending. If you go in wanting to attack a blocking opponent, what are you going to do exactly? Again, Kokoro is looking for a single counter hit. If she's at long range, the opponent will have to come to mid range eventually, and your job is to keep them at mid range and not let them get too close. She can also try and force the mid range by slowly going closer and baiting an attack for a counter hit. But, when being on close range with her, getting to mid range is a huge nightmare. She is only good at close range for characters that are slower than her like maybe Bass, and even then, the evasive characters like Bayman can give her issues.

Yeah, you can say that her heichu grab is a huge tool for up close. It is on standing blocking opponents... That's a huge condition, and it requires a lot of risk. It works on holding opponents, but other options do more damage there. It's generally better for it to connect on a blocking or sidestepping opponent. It doesn't work on ducking sidesteps, so that leaves out the likes of Bayman, Christie and so on. To condition the player to block a lot means you first have to put pressure on them with Kokoro, and well, that's hard for reasons already mentioned. Unless of course you stun them first. Getting the first stun is the easiest at mid range.

The opposing player has a lot of options against the heichu grab. They can either duck or use ANY type of attack, and your heichu is nullified. And then, good luck getting out of their attacks. Aside from that, even if it connects, they can hold all of its follow-ups. Considering the majority of the cast is as fast as Kokoro or faster, it's not wise to play her at close range. What can Kokoro do with the likes of Gen Fu up close? Helena? Kasumi? Hitomi? Bayman? Eliot? Christie? Ayane? Jann Lee? Mila? Pai? Tina? Brad? Jacky? Which of them are going to be standing and blocking for your heichu grab to connect? The heichu grab is more reliable when the opponent is already stunned..

You can use heichu at longer ranges also, simply to evade or bait something and hit the opponent. So it's not solely a close range tool. At close range you can easily get hit out of the heichu stance in general. The grab is no exception. Of course, if you're dealing with a turtle, it might be better to stay close, and that's where the heichu grab would shine. But a lot of good players are not turtles anymore like DOA4.
 

the space cadet

Active Member
During the first part of your post you're speaking of taking the role of a turtle. Kokoro is not suited for that. That doesn't mean a player can't turtle with her, but she isn't designed for it for the span of an entire match. A Kokoro player would be subjecting themselves to constantly be pressured. Perhaps that's why a Kokoro player that tends to play at long range is also the Kokoro player that talks about always feeling pressured. Also, by just spacing out and fishing for a CH all the time is eliminating her most powerful tool: Heichu grab. If a player wants to turtle and fish for a CH, then plant your flag and go with it. It's not like I'm saying it's wrong.

This is also why I avoid discussion topics like a disease. There is no universal answer, there's only the opinions of an individual's own experiences against the opponents they face. Hence, X and Y is always refuted by another saying they'll just do A and B. Then repeat.

-"Heichu is a powerful tool that forces a blocking opponent to hit buttons"
-"I can just duck it... or attack you."
-"If you try to duck or attack, I'll just finish the string rather than heichu, resulting in me getting a CH"
-"If you try to finish the string, I'll just block it or SS"
-"If you block or SS, I can throw you"
-"I can fuzzy your throw attempt"
- *pukes*

It's like trying to justify how to win at paper, rock, scissors. And since DoA is based on that same foundation, no one will ever be right, aside from exact aspects such as frame data.

This is why I never said anyone is wrong in how they play. I put forth my opinions and the mechanics of how I play. Others can take it or leave it. It's expected.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
It just sounds like you're not likely to agree or at least try to see another player's perspective about things they use, or why they use it. Of course players are going to detail something from their own play experience, thats what players do in any fighting game they play. Its called discussion, thats what character forums are for, to discuss and share ideas with other players so character and play can develop and people can try to figure something out.
 

the space cadet

Active Member
^ If you're referring to me, I'd like you to repost any comment by me where I've claimed my methods are factual and another player's tactics are wrong. Because I can certainly repost multiple comments I've made outlining the exact opposite.

As for my comment about why I avoid these discussions, wihch wins: Paper, rock, or scissors?

I'm not gonna beat my head against the wall when the "discussion" has no right or wrong answer. If you, or anyone, perceives that as me not being pliable, then let your feelings fly. It's not gonna hurt my feelings.

Regarding NA's post:

1. The beginning outlines a strength being turtling... stay long range and get CH's when the opponent approaches. Then the post ends by saying good players don't turtle.

2. He states the strength is getting CH's to initiate a stun (which is correct) but then discredits the heichu grab because "they can hold all of its follow-ups."

3. He listed half the cast and says none of them are gonna block Kokoro's attacks. Then says "the heichu grab is more reliable when the opponent is already stunned."

*shrug*

Oh well.
 

NightAntilli

Well-Known Member
1. The beginning outlines a strength being turtling... stay long range and get CH's when the opponent approaches. Then the post ends by saying good players don't turtle.

2. He states the strength is getting CH's to initiate a stun (which is correct) but then discredits the heichu grab because "they can hold all of its follow-ups."

3. He listed half the cast and says none of them are gonna block Kokoro's attacks. Then says "the heichu grab is more reliable when the opponent is already stunned."

*shrug*

Oh well.
1) In my view, spacing and turtling are not the same thing.
2) Not only that. They have a lot more options to counter it, than you have a chance of landing it. Of course, if you can read your opponent very well, it's not an issue. But I'm generally not willing to take that risk.
3) Sure they're gonna block from time to time. But these characters are either faster, have better crushes, or have additional moves that make the heichu grab VERY hard to land. If you can't pressure them, you're not going to land the heichu grab. And it's not easy to pressure those characters with Kokoro. It is more reliable when the opponent is already stunned, because if it misses, you're not giving your opponent a huge opening.
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
lol, not even referring to what you said toward Night Antilli. Again, you didn't understand what I said, but no matter what someone says you will deem it "not the answer you're looking for". You go on about how Heichu is best used in close range situations, when others (including myself) have describe other ways you can utilize that tool. It can be used in various ways, not just one way. Think of something as a whole, and not just one-dimensional.

I also don't think you understand the concept of long range during the neutral, even after Night Antilli described it.

Also, people saying side step defeats this character so badly is inaccurate to say, because not everyone is going to side step. And not everyone is going to side step correctly or know when to side step. Side steps must be used accurately to have success, not wildly just because it's an option that can rape said character, because it doesn't.
 

the space cadet

Active Member
NA- I posted those for a different reason, but your response if fair enough.

iHaj- Your comment "...no matter what someone says you will deem it not the answer you're looking for" just further solidifies that you are still misinterpreting my comments. Continued confirmation is shown with your comment "You go on about how Heichu is best used in close range situations." Lol, not once did I say heichu is best used in close range situations. I said being close range is a strength because heichu is a powerful tool. There is a huge difference in implication based on how one perceives the comment.

I agree 100% about your SS comment. I always roll my eyes when I hear someone say all it takes to beat Kokoro is SS'ing her.

edit:
Spacing and turtling: We all know the discussion on hand based on being at long range and waiting for the opponent to close the distance so you can try to get CH's.
 

xhuntressx

Member
I think you both understand each other- you both just don't agree with one another. Those are two different concepts, lol.
 
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