Kokoro's Match-up Rating Discussion

Crext

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Howdy, thought we might start a discussion regarding Kokoro's match-ups and what you believe to be the case. Remember that this is just speculations based on 1 perhaps incomplete view at this time, but I'll still want to hear your opinions, so we could get some estimates up and running.

We'll use the same as in the old
http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...live-5-tier-list-with-discussion-thread.2082/
where 5 means equal, 6 means you win 6 of 4 if you are equally good, and 4 the other way around.

I'll give an example as I view things.

Kokoro vs
Akira
- 5
Alpha152 - 6
Ayane - 4 (Kokoro's disfavor)
Bass - 6 (Kokoro's favor)
Bayman - 5
Brad - 4
Christie - 4
Eliot - 4
Gen Fu - 4
Hayate - 5
Helena - 4
Hitomi - 5
Jann - 4
Kasumi - 5
Leifang - 4
Lisa - 5
Mila - 6
Pai - 5
Rig - 5
Ryu - 5
Sarah - 5
Tina - 6
Zack - 5
New crew:
Rachel - 5
Ein - 5
Momiji - 5
Leon - 6
Jacky - 5

My experience is limited based on perhaps less than 10 meetings against some of the characters above (as an example Eliot is a rare gem).
So I'll leave a lot on 5 if I don't feel I got enough info to decide either way.

In other words I don't feel like I am in a situation to judge the complete roster, and want a discussion going. What I bring forth is not perfect and I want you to correct me!

Here is the complete match-up rating discussion

Hoping for some good replies!
 
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Tenryuga

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Hayate
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Kokoro vs Ein is 5 - 5 IMO. Some might argue its slightly in Ein's favor which I wouldn't disagree with either because if Ein is on point It's hard for Kokoro to come in. When she does get in she has the speed advantage initially but once Ein connects with a 2P she has to respect his options because if she presses a button and it is the wrong button she gets counter hit stunned by 3P / 6K or takes 87 points of damage from a followup on PKK assuming the Kokoro player fails to hold it and the Ein player chooses to use it. It also doesn't help that Ein has a built in high crush in his sidestep: SSK. This deals with Kokoro's highs nicely.

Kokoro can get in on Ein once Ein makes poor decisions at range or gets close enough that his range tools lose effectiveness or priority. At a certain range her 66P can stuff most of Ein's better keep out tools like 4K and 6P+K due to the speed it has over them. She is also nailing him with 214P when he whiffs something with large recovery and it doesn't even put her in a bad situation on block because the move is neutral on block.

I said 5 - 5 because with patience Kokoro can get in and make the right reads on Ein's 2P pressure. It also takes patience on the Ein players part because if he isn't aware of what he is doing at range she will blow him up for it.
 
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Crext

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Fair enough, guess I am only facing mediocre Ein players as they all seem to blow up. Seem to never get hit before one just 66p or 6p(p) in. Even if he blocks any follow up it will leave you within distance to do funny stuff, including forward techroll options. That is not to mention that you always start in close range and never has to give it up if you are lucky. To top it of in certain stages Ein has limited to none backdash options making it some easy preys out there.
 

Tenryuga

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Trust me if you are playing this game on PSN you are playing mediocre Ein players. Most do not even know that he is intended to be played at mid to long range and don't utilize his tools properly. I myself have seen some of the silly things they do and am in the process of making a beginner guide. Anyway if Ein blocks 66P from Kokoro trying to come in he is not in a bad position because she is -4 after that. He can begin his offense with 2P, strike with any of his mids, or check sidestep with 4p in that situation.

Ein's poor performance in close range comes from his limited tracking options and strings as well as crushes. A player can still get by with him if they know how to condition the opponent with his 2P pressure especially against characters with 10 / 12/ X speeds. Ein isn't the type of character where once you get in he is finished because once the right reads are made he has either scored a knock back or a knockdown that allows him to shift the momentum in his favor. He only has bad MU against characters he struggles to space effectively against or characters that once they do get in their speed and mixup is too much for him to handle without a crush. (Hayate, Gen Fu, Hitomi, Ayane are without a doubt bad match ups for Ein. Hayate is probably his worst MU IMO.) Characters with parries can hinder him as well because they neuter his already limited options in close range.

Kokoro isn't so fast that Ein cannot out poke her when she is free canceling and Kokoro's tracking isn't nearly as effective as other strikers that give Ein a difficult time. All Ein needs to do is be patient on the defensive and be productive with his 2P pressure and he can easily gain momentum as some of his strings even provide push back on block that he can use to space himself out.
 
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etong23
Jann : 4 (Kokoro's disfavor)

I would not write the paper analysis here. It is base on pure experience. Many of Jann's tools are obviously supperior than Kokoro's.
 

Tenryuga

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Hayate
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2535-4658-1818
PSN ID
Tenryuga
Fair enough, but could you please care to elaborate?



Well, you are as close as they get.
At the very least I can say I'm one of the better Ein's on PSN and am knowledgable. I won't say I'm the best until I'm done working out my flaws with this character and accomplish a few things in offline majors. If anyone is on xbox and wants the Ein match up I would recommend @JayceeChris and Offbeat Ninja. Their level of skill with him exceeds mine.
 
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etong23
At the very least I can say I'm one of the better Ein's on PSN...
There is only one guy playing Ein on PSN as I recalled during my play time (don't remember ID). He swap using Ein and Hayate from time to time. The reason I do not recognized any of Ein's move is I feel like why I should learn his move just to fight one player once a week.
 
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Brute

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IIRC, Tight Eyez is using Ein these days and it pretty wicked with him.
 

U_C_A_F

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Main Character
After much thought i have to say Kokoro vs Eliot Match-up is 6-4 in Eliots favor. Both play similarly offensively with relying on stun pressure and free cancelling mixups but Eliot has some key tools to go along with it that Kokoro doesn't have access to.

Eliot has long strings that are delayable to keep up pressure, good back-turned mixup options, parries that give guaranteed attacks and a psuedo-guaranteed launcher, buffed 2H+K string variants that now causes deep stun on normal hit to open defending players up, A throw launcher that grants him great juggle damage especially on hi-counter a reset throw that gives him +10 frame advantage, a 9 frame attack that although nerfed and no longer stuns on counter hit it can still stuff all her offense, And he also has a sabaki like kokoro that gives him faster access to CB.

So overall Kokoro isn't all that threatening to him since she around the same speed, is a light weight so he gets maximum damage off her with his instant choryu refloats, isn't evasive so his linearity won't be a problem against her, and she'll have to respect his parries since many of her best attacks are mids limiting her offense against him
 
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Bushido

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Nashville, TN
Main Character
Kokoro
PSN ID
Bushido_0w0
After much thought i have to say Kokoro vs Eliot Match-up is 6-4 in Eliots favor. Both play similarly offensively with relying on stun pressure and free cancelling mix-ups but Eliot has some key tools to go along with it that Kokoro doesn't have access to.

Eliot has long strings that are delayable to keep up pressure, good back-turned mixup options, parries that give guaranteed attacks and a psuedo-guaranteed launcher, buffed 2H+K string variants that now causes deep stun on normal hit to open defending players up, A throw launcher that grants him great juggle damage especially on hi-counter a reset throw that gives him +10 frame advantage, a 9 frame attack that although nerfed and no longer stuns on counter hit it can still stuff all her offense, And he also has a sabaki like kokoro that gives him faster access to CB.

So overall Kokoro isn't all that threatening to him since she around the same speed, is a light weight so he gets maximum damage off her with his instant choryu refloats, isn't evasive so his linearity won't be a problem against her, and she'll have to respect his parries since many of her best attacks are mids limiting her offense against him
The match-up definitely isn't 6-4 Eliot, it's straight 5-5 Neither of them have tools that out shine the other really

-Kokoro may not have the long strings, but she can delay like crazy. Her pressure is also annoying when played correctly
-Kokoro has just as good, if not better BT moves
-There's only one follow-up to Eliot's 2H+K...unless you meant another move
-Kokoro also has the 214T bait throw, giving quite a bit of damage on Hi Counter as well
-The reset throw is only going to guarantee Eliot's jab, Kokoro does an alright job at crushing highs
-The 9 frame punch isn't such a big deal, it's a good poke, but it's leaving them at neutral. It's bringing both of them back to square one.
-Both of them have a sabaki like you said.
-I also do believe that Kokoro has a better mid range game than Eliot...correct me if I'm wrong though
-Eliot is also in the same weight class for Kokoro...she gets max damage as well
-Both of them are linear, neither are that evasive either
-Both of them rely on mids and highs for a lot of their good offense

To conclude, the advantage(s) Eliot has over Kokoro is parries and possibly that throw launcher. Which, in my opinion, isn't enough to drive a match-up from 5-5 to 6-4.


Fair enough, but could you please care to elaborate?
It's because he's a Bruce Lee character.

On a serious note, I haven't really been involved with everyone's changes, and it's always been the consensus JL v Koko is 6-4 JL, but I haven't seen any reasoning behind it. Here's what I see:

-JL has good mix-ups at all levels while Kokoro is kind of hanging around highs and most definitely mids.
-JL is faster than Kokoro overall, or at least he looks faster.
-They're probably getting around the same damage.
-His keep-out game is phenomenal compared to Kokoro's (Just 214P...)
-JL has loads of guaranteed damage
-Dragon Stance is ridiculous

This is basically what I see. Though, I haven't looked at this match-up deeply at all nor have I played Jann Lee that much.
 
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U_C_A_F

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Main Character
The match-up definitely isn't 6-4 Eliot, it's straight 5-5 Neither of them have tools that out shine the other really

-Kokoro may not have the long strings, but she can delay like crazy. Her pressure is also annoying when played correctly
-Kokoro has just as good, if not better BT moves
-There's only one follow-up to Eliot's 2H+K...unless you meant another move
-Kokoro also has the 214T bait throw, giving quite a bit of damage on Hi Counter as well
-The reset throw is only going to guarantee Eliot's jab, Kokoro does an alright job at crushing highs
-The 9 frame punch isn't such a big deal, it's a good poke, but it's leaving them at neutral. It's bringing both of them back to square one.
-Both of them have a sabaki like you said.
-I also do believe that Kokoro has a better mid range game than Eliot...correct me if I'm wrong though
-Eliot is also in the same weight class for Kokoro...she gets max damage as well
-Both of them are linear, neither are that evasive either
-Both of them rely on mids and highs for a lot of their good offense

To conclude, the advantage(s) Eliot has over Kokoro is parries and possibly that throw launcher. Which, in my opinion, isn't enough to drive a match-up from 5-5 to 6-4..
Sorry but i have to disagree it may not be a full 6-4 but its at least a 5.5-4.5 and definitely not an even match-up with the tools Eliot has over her. Like I said before He can do essentially everything she does and more. I forgot to mention other things he has over her like guard breaks which he has three of them that give him +1 through +4 advantage on block, better wall pressure game where he can do his full throw launcher into maximum damage juggle on an opponent right next to the wall and get big damage off of wall bounces with his choryu refloats to go along with his many attacks that grant him easy ways to put opponents into walls. his tracking H+K high kick that does the stumble away stun granting him guaranteed 9k launch.

You mentioned she has better mid range game which isn't true at all Eliot has his 66P and its follow up variants that has great range and can mixup into his long punch strings or into his guardbreak 46p follow up. he also has 66P+K which has huge range and causes his +4 GB. 6H+K which low crushes and causes hard knockdown on hit, and he also has his dragon kick which was buffed to give him +3 GB

you pretty much downplayed his advantages to make her look better which doesn't change anything. match-ups are based on comparing two characters toolsets played at the highest level of competition. Obviously im not saying that Kokoro can't beat him im just saying in a match where two equally high leveled players using them against eachother the Eliot player is at a clear advantage due to the tools he has compared to hers
 

Bushido

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Nashville, TN
Main Character
Kokoro
PSN ID
Bushido_0w0
Sorry but i have to disagree it may not be a full 6-4 but its at least a 5.5-4.5 and definitely not an even match-up with the tools Eliot has over her. Like I said before He can do essentially everything she does and more. I forgot to mention other things he has over her like guard breaks which he has three of them that give him +1 through +4 advantage on block, better wall pressure game where he can do his full throw launcher into maximum damage juggle on an opponent right next to the wall and get big damage off of wall bounces with his choryu refloats to go along with his many attacks that grant him easy ways to put opponents into walls. his tracking H+K high kick that does the stumble away stun granting him guaranteed 9k launch.

You mentioned she has better mid range game which isn't true at all Eliot has his 66P and its follow up variants that has great range and can mixup into his long punch strings or into his guardbreak 46p follow up. he also has 66P+K which has huge range and causes his +4 GB. 6H+K which low crushes and causes hard knockdown on hit, and he also has his dragon kick which was buffed to give him +3 GB

you pretty much downplayed his advantages to make her look better which doesn't change anything. match-ups are based on comparing two characters toolsets played at the highest level of competition. Obviously im not saying that Kokoro can't beat him im just saying in a match where two equally high leveled players using them against eachother the Eliot player is at a clear advantage due to the tools he has compared to hers
I never downplayed Eliot's advantages, I compared what you said to Kokoro's stuff. You mentioned a lot more viable tools now than you did in the first post. Can't really debate with you since I haven't played 5U much nor do I play Eliot. We can agree to disagree.
 

StrikerSashi

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Toronto
Main Character
Eliot
Gamertag
StrikerSashi
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StrikerSashi
I don't know this matchup at all, but I'm pretty sure Eliot's 12f launch throw does like 110-120 damage on HiCH. Can't really call Kokoro's 214T good in comparison to that. Plus, that 66T near walls. That throw is so good. 10f, does the same damage on HiCH as Kokoro's 214T with a wallslam, and gives the wall slide that allows for amazing okizeme. I love that throw.
 
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etong23
Sorry but i have to disagree it may not be a full 6-4 but its at least a 5.5-4.5 and definitely not an even match-up with the tools Eliot has over her. ....
I admit that I do not have enough knowledge about Eliot to provide analysis. And I'm not the offline player. What I could only share is what I feel from online fight with Eliot player which could be either accurate or inaccurate. I think Eliot’s low kick which stun on normal hit (not sure if it is 2H+K) is kind of what Kokoro lack (she ever have like 6P+K once but no more stun in 5U). So 5.5-4.5 (Kokoro disfavor) sounds make sense to me, the 6:4 is also OK as a round figure.

Could you and me set up some fight like 5 matches to see how effectiveness of the move for better understanding each other?


PSN: etong23
 

StrikerSashi

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Toronto
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Eliot
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StrikerSashi
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StrikerSashi
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't notice this before. How is Kokoro/Hitomi 6-4? If anything, it's 4-6. Punch parry is a big deal.

EDIT: Also better spacing. I'd say Hitomi's mixups are better than Kokoro's now after 6H+K nerf.

EDIT: What's the reasoning behind Kokoro/Lisa? I have trouble with Lisa, but I think it's just 'cause I don't know the matchup at all.
 
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Tenryuga

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Hayate
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Tenryuga
Lisa easily crushes Kokoros highs and outperforms her at distance. Kokoro has to stick to her mid options and limit usage of her highs which means she isn't getting off many in string grabs. I don't have a counter strategy for this character at the moment so thats all I have. Dunno if thats enough to make the matchup in Lisa's favor.

I believe the Hitomi matchup is even. Punch parry does nothing to stop her 6K which stuns on NH or her 3K. Kokoro will be fine if she opts to use those to retaliate more than her punches because those put Hitomi into a bad situation for making a terrible read with her parry.

I also wouldn't say Hitomi is better at distance because the moves she has for getting in are 1K and 66K / 66P that's it. 66K is easily crushed by many things for Hi counter damage and 66P has small range. 236P and 46P are whiff punishers; If she is using those to get in on somebody that is misuse of the moves and she can and should be punished for it. At distance Hitomi is more about using her quick footwork and godlike back dash to bait whiffs she can capitalize on rather than just straight up coming in.

Kokoro on the other had is good at coming in. 66P is damn near instant, 214P is 18 frame whiff punisher that is neutral on block, P+K is slower and is a high but leaves her at +1 on block, stuns on NH and launches on CH. I don't understand why Kokoro players neglect her P+K at range. 1K starts low and so does 1P. 33P leads into heichu grab. There is also the deceptive 46P and finally we have 66T. She has a good amount of options to make Hitomi feel uncomfortable during spacing IMO even though Hitomi can toss out punch parry if she feels like Kokoro is going to move in with a punch. However that parry can be baited and punished and if she is whiffing parries that gives us time to move in. The downside here is that Kokoros options are all linear.
 
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