Kokoro's Match-up Rating Discussion

[o_YUE_o]

Still requires some character knowledge though, that's part of how you punish a character.

Definitely. But what if I told you. I don't know how to punish? (Which is one of the many reasons why I lost to you, but... then again. That was online and our signal is like *blows raspberries*)

YinCrescent / Kokoro (The Worst Kokoro)​

 

[HoodsXx]

I decided to chime in on this discussion myself. I'm a Brad Wong player (Sadly not well known yet ) But I feel that Brad Wong vs Kokoro is 6-4.

In case you don't know Brad's primary high/mid/low frames are (12i highs) (15i Mid) (14i Low). So let's get to it. Kokoro's offense on Brad, is very difficult to deal with at times, due to her being faster than him in the neutral game and having excellent delays, as well as being extremely safe on pretty much anything she does. The thing she lacks obviously is tracking moves, which is a definite problem when facing Brad. The reason for this is that not only does he have his command side step, he also has his stance side step, which not only crushes highs, but also side steps linear moves. (The move is 4P8, the 4P crushes highs, while the 8 side steps).

The other thing is that because a lot of her strings aren't true block strings; meaning, you're forced to block that particular string. Brad is able to get away from a lot of her pressure by going into Lay-down stance, which also crushes highs. When they're both in CQC, Brad's KK4 (Which is a true block string), is +1 on block, meaning any mid she tries to use will be stopped and if she tries to jab him out of the stance, their jabs will trade.

When it comes to mid range play, I'd have to say that Brad wins in this as well. This is because, he not only has a fast running P, which is safe on block (13i), it also covers a lot of distance. On top of that, he's also got moves that deal with her coming in on him, whilst in lay-down. These moves being Lay-down K, Lay-down P+K and his OH in Lay-down. His Lay-down K has a funny hit-box and can stuff her 66P, 6P+KP, as well as 46PP. While his Lay-down P+K side steps linear moves, which she has to commit to, to come in. As for his OH, that will catch anything that comes near him before they come into contact with him, as it has 3 extra active frames; meaning that even though it comes out in 16i, it's out for 3 extra frames. His other OH move, is his Crane Stance OH, which also can stop her from coming in on him.

Other moves he has that can out-right stop her is 7K, 44K, BT 8K and HS H+K. All of these moves, out-range her and some of them can lead to insane damage if she's hit by them.
As for long range play, Brad has Crane stance H+K even though it's slow, as a lot of range as well as follow-ups. His Crane stance 2K, also has a lot of range, and when used at range, crushes some mids, putting him into Lay-down stance if the player chooses not to use the grab from it.

I'll add more, when I can think of anything else as it's late. :x.

NanhouDrops

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Definitely. But what if I told you. I don't know how to punish? (Which is one of the many reasons why I lost to you, but... then again. That was online and our signal is like *blows raspberries*)

View attachment 3156
YinCrescent / Kokoro (The Worst Kokoro)​

You should learn how to, though.

Punishment, be it whiff, neutral (strike against slow recovery moves) and throw punishment (especially throw punishment) are ways of getting your "free guaranteed" damage on a player's mistake. Plus, throw punishment is important in DOA. Makes your play more consistent when you do.

 

[HoodsXx]

^ This, you also stay in control of the match when your throw punishment in consistent, since it makes the player weary of throwing things out randomly.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Definitely. But what if I told you. I don't know how to punish? (Which is one of the many reasons why I lost to you, but... then again. That was online and our signal is like *blows raspberries*)

View attachment 3156
YinCrescent / Kokoro (The Worst Kokoro)​

After a certain player level, you're going to run into a lot of difficulty beating certain opponents if you don't know how to punish their moves. Not punishing an opponents moves is pretty much an invitation for them to go free reign on your ass. I can't stress how important it is to not let an opponent abuse unsafe moves against you.

 

[Crext]

I'm not missing any context. I told you exactly what Hitomi has for range and that they are effective even in this match up.

1KK is not good nor is it decent for range by any means. Neither is 8K.

Kokoro is not a rush down character, you can't even play rush down that effectively in this game, with most moves with good hit priority being negative (or so negative) on block. She has very good offensive tools, but she is not a rush down character, lol. Especially not when she's literally been slowed down in DOA5U.

2H+KK does not by any means justify rush down. It's not even intended to be used as a get in tool.

I think you really need to play some better players for better match up experience. You clearly cannot see how inaccurate your last post was (while others and myself can, which is why they originally liked my post in the first place). You're too busy worrying about "Context, context, context!".

Your OP even states that you have limited experience and knowledge about said character, especially since you "just recently picked up Kokopuffs." Since I had to come in here and correct two match ups for you.

Discuss the topic maturely.

If I offended you because I assumed you to not be putting things in context I apologize.
I was just given the impression of it because your argumentation was simply put forward as "words of truth" without any numbers to back it up, where it was difficult to see if you spoke of the match-up or not. Now that I understand that this was not the case I can see that some of the wording might seem patronizing, and again I apologize if so was the case.

However, I agree that it does have certain degree of subjectivity, but that does not equal inaccuracy.
This is also why we are discussing, and if you take the top 10 people in the world and put them together, they will disagree more than you and me.

This may not be relevant, but your likes may come from the fact that you got a closed similarity structure (obligation and expectations, information channels, and social norms). It can actually prevent you from elevating your game, where I suspect the playstyle of that social core to be very equal (maybe you even train with the lot?). It may not be of much interest for this particular topic, but it might be something for you to consider if you are aiming to be nr. 1 in the world.

That said we agree on almost everything, but disagree on the "degree of impact".
h+kk is not intended for moving in. You might be right about this, but if people has discovered some new tech that works, and that is common, then we should take it into consideration in my view.

1kk and 8k, ok again I am not calling it great, but it does have its usage in my view. If you tip hit it, you can't be punished and get an opportunity to build your frame advantage if you do. The risk is low, and even if the reward is not great, I'd say it justifies the low risk if it is done at a certain range. You might even hit jackpot if the opponent moves into you where you get a close up deep stun, but enough about that.

I've played a lot of Hitomi and some Kokoro. So maybe I am over-allocating resources to that particular match-up as a result. I also like to experiment, and I like to believe that I got a hand or two that I've never seen anyone else use that is effective. Maybe some of those elements shadow my view as I am the only one who've had the experience of acting them out.

When it comes to Gen Fu and Ayane your knowledge surpasses mine, and the argumentation you put forth is creditable, thus I do not question it. The Hitomi setup I feel I got enough knowledge about to do question.

Never the less we are not going to agree it seems, but I will put forward the data of interest for people who do not know the situation. I will take the moves we disagree of in regards to impact of this match-up.


Hitomi (pref range in the setup, unless at frame advantage):

, 23 frames, reach 1,95 meter, and moves 0,55 meter towards the target. Gap at 1,40 meters.
, 14 frames, reach 1,75 meter, and moves 0,90 meter towards the target. Gap at 0,85 meters.
, 17 frames, reach 1,88 meter, and moves 1,10 meter towards the target. Gap at 0,78 meters.

Just a general note has 1,42 m reach and 1,44 m reach, both at 13 frames (her fastest mids).


Kokoro (pref close range in this setup):

, 14 frames, reach 2,13 m, and moves 1,60 m towards the target (-4 on block => safe)

, 12 frames, reach 1,53 m, and moves 0,65 m towards the target.
, 12 + 19 frames, builds on 0,65 meters with reach at 1,96 m, and move 1,60 m towards target for 2,25 meters total. (-7 on block, could be breakable throw punished)

, 16 frames, reach 1,66 meter, and move 0,90 meter towards the target
, 16+20 frames, builds on 0,90 meter towards and reach at 1,76 meter (2,66 m total). Moves an additional 0,75 meter for 1,65 meter total.

As a general note and can be mixed up with other moves for diversity, or be canceled into something else.

 

[Crext]

I decided to chime in on this discussion myself. I'm a Brad Wong player (Sadly not well known yet ) But I feel that Brad Wong vs Kokoro is 6-4.

In case you don't know Brad's primary high/mid/low frames are (12i highs) (15i Mid) (14i Low). So let's get to it. Kokoro's offense on Brad, is very difficult to deal with at times, due to her being faster than him in the neutral game and having excellent delays, as well as being extremely safe on pretty much anything she does. The thing she lacks obviously is tracking moves, which is a definite problem when facing Brad. The reason for this is that not only does he have his command side step, he also has his stance side step, which not only crushes highs, but also side steps linear moves. (The move is 4P8, the 4P crushes highs, while the 8 side steps).

The other thing is that because a lot of her strings aren't true block strings; meaning, you're forced to block that particular string. Brad is able to get away from a lot of her pressure by going into Lay-down stance, which also crushes highs. When they're both in CQC, Brad's KK4 (Which is a true block string), is +1 on block, meaning any mid she tries to use will be stopped and if she tries to jab him out of the stance, their jabs will trade.

When it comes to mid range play, I'd have to say that Brad wins in this as well. This is because, he not only has a fast running P, which is safe on block (13i), it also covers a lot of distance. On top of that, he's also got moves that deal with her coming in on him, whilst in lay-down. These moves being Lay-down K, Lay-down P+K and his OH in Lay-down. His Lay-down K has a funny hit-box and can stuff her 66P, 6P+KP, as well as 46PP. While his Lay-down P+K side steps linear moves, which she has to commit to, to come in. As for his OH, that will catch anything that comes near him before they come into contact with him, as it has 3 extra active frames; meaning that even though it comes out in 16i, it's out for 3 extra frames. His other OH move, is his Crane Stance OH, which also can stop her from coming in on him.

Other moves he has that can out-right stop her is 7K, 44K, BT 8K and HS H+K. All of these moves, out-range her and some of them can lead to insane damage if she's hit by them.
As for long range play, Brad has Crane stance H+K even though it's slow, as a lot of range as well as follow-ups. His Crane stance 2K, also has a lot of range, and when used at range, crushes some mids, putting him into Lay-down stance if the player chooses not to use the grab from it.

I'll add more, when I can think of anything else as it's late. :x.

NanhouDrops

You make a well argumented case. I'll change it right away.

 

[Musourenka]

As someone who likes playing mid-range/spacing with Kokoro, why shouldn't she fight mid-range against Ayane? Yes, Ayane's better at range than Kokoro, but I think Ayane beats Kokoro at close range, too, and I'd rather deal with a ranged Ayane than one at close range (Yes, I am crazy).


And Gen Fu still scares the hell out of me. His close range dominance is... dominating.

To clarify some more, this is coming from someone who thinks Kokoro's better at mid-range than close-range.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

@Crext You don't get it. You need to do what I already suggested and realize that paper knowledge doesn't excel over experience. Otherwise you would understand why what I've said earlier has measure to it (and why Genfu doesn't actually lack a range game). I'm going to leave this be, lol.

@Musourenka Kokoro can fight Ayane at range, but Ayane has a better time there, as it is her Comfort Zone and most of her range tools have more range than Kokoro's. Kokoro's have more hit priority, but Ayane's are meant to keep you out, screw up your movement, and whiff punishment you.

However, simple things like BT6P, BT2K, BT H+K, BTPP, BTPP6KK4, BT2KK, BT4K, BT6K, and KK have very good hit priority too.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

As someone who likes playing mid-range/spacing with Kokoro, why shouldn't she fight mid-range against Ayane? Yes, Ayane's better at range than Kokoro, but I think Ayane beats Kokoro at close range, too, and I'd rather deal with a ranged Ayane than one at close range (Yes, I am crazy).


And Gen Fu still scares the hell out of me. His close range dominance is... dominating.

To clarify some more, this is coming from someone who thinks Kokoro's better at mid-range than close-range.

I think you may have answered your own question here. Ayane is more comfortable fighting at mid-range than close range against almost everyone on the cast including Kokoro. The only advantage that Ayane has over Kokoro in close is faster low pokes and better high crush capabilities. Other than that, Ayane doesn't benefit much from fighting Kokoro in close. At range it's a game of Ayane's superior ranged pokes versus Kokoro's mid-range attacks. As long as the Ayane player doesn't screw-up or get careless, they have no reason to engage in close combat with Kokoro.

Generally Kokoro gets much greater rewards for hitting her close range attacks than Ayane gets for hitting hers such as better stuns. If you can fight with Kokoro at range, that's alright since her mid-range attacks are deceptively good. However Kokoro's gameplay is about getting in on her opponent for offensive mix-up pressure, whereas Ayane's gameplay is about in-and-out keepaway pressure.

 

[Crext]

@Crext You don't get it. You need to do what I already suggested and realize that paper knowledge doesn't excel over experience. Otherwise you would understand why what I've said earlier has measure to it (and why Genfu doesn't actually lack a range game). I'm going to leave this be, lol.

Well, I at least must thank you for bothering entering the debate. I totally understand that fishing up numbers to support your claims could be both time consuming and less fun. It is so much easier to "just have it in your muscle memory", after all. But that doesn't easily transfer to paper here on the forum, which quickly makes us speak around each other because we have different backgrounds and experiences.

That said, if experience was the superior deciding factor over paper knowledge nothing we say would matter as I'd go to Xcaliburbladez, Master or Lopedo for answers? Also you don't main Hitomi, so that comment would backfire tremendously?

But I'll set the line there, as you keep confusing me with some strange logical reference to what I say from time to time. How did you even manage to mix Gen Fu's range game into the blender here, lol?

That said, good feedback on Gen Fu and Ayane as well, they surly make this more accurate and your words don't go to waste!

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Well, I at least must thank you for bothering entering the debate. I totally understand that fishing up numbers to support your claims could be both time consuming and less fun. It is so much easier to "just have it in your muscle memory", after all. But that doesn't easily transfer to paper here on the forum, which quickly makes us speak around each other because we have different backgrounds and experiences.

That said, if experience was the superior deciding factor over paper knowledge nothing we say would matter as I'd go to Xcaliburbladez, Master or Lopedo for answers. Also you don't main Hitomi, so that comment would backfire tremendously?

But I'll set the line there, as you keep confusing me with some strange logical reference to what I say from time to time. How did you even manage to mix Gen Fu's range game into the blender here, lol?

That said, good feedback on Gen Fu and Ayane as well, they surly make this more accurate!

I have a lot more paper knowledge and experience in this game than you do. Please do not even try to question this fact here. I don't need to main Hitomi to understand what she's capable of doing. Which I obviously understand more than you do. I have a large amount of experience playing against the character through multiple skilled players. And a lot of lab time to figure out and realize what's actually viable for her (and many other characters).

Like I said, I suggest you play better players for a greater experience so you realize what works.

It would seem that you cannot hold a decent level of maturity when speaking with me (the proof is in your posts in response to mine). Which is a shame, because you cannot hold your own in an in-game discussion without it, clearly. But you clearly like to be a jackass, which is fine if that suits your personality.

You seem to be the only one who gets "confused by some strange logical reference to what you say", as everyone else here seems to understand exactly what I am saying. But I'll set the line there, as you keep getting confused by some strange logical reference to what I say. See what I did there?

It doesn't really matter anymore. It's obvious how your behavior will be, so it's best just to block you. It's a damn shame some people cannot grow up and just discuss something civilly.

 

[Crext]

@iHajinShinobi

Ok, Hajin, ok... To my defense I did not try to be a "jackass" where my praise was honest. But ok.

Btw, anyone else got the impression that I am mocking Hajin? Tell me cause I'd like to know if I am at fault here. I am looking over my comments, and I can't see it. In my view I have remained respectful, and if I am missing some norms I'd like to know. I have no intentions of coming off as a bully against Hajin or anyone else here.

 

[Tenryuga]

Just leave it alone. This is the Kokoro MU discussion thread.

 

[Thanapon Buamongkol]

I'm sure this is you at a loss at what ranges to use the move as I get mileage out of it. Its not something to be abused because of the speed but it is a effective move that shouldn't be overlooked....

OK, after my trial&error for a week. I think here is her effective move on mid range with P+K. It works even with 1Bar connection.

P+K -> 6PP (P or throw)

On counter hit, launch with 6PPP will most likely connect.

On guard, chance to get counter hit from 6P if the opponent didn't aware of +1 on block from P+K. In addition, the blocking animation after P+K is quite giving the feeling to opponent to deploy counter but get countered instead. If opponent also guard 6PP , you could throw instead of hitting the last P.

Eventually, I'm now able to include the P+K into my load out move set.

 

[jjinkou2]

It's not easy to find in this sub-forum the best answer versus a specific character or move. Those information are spread widely through several threads.

So may be this thread could collect your questions and all your best tools against some pattern you already met.

I start with questions against
1) How do deal with people that keep spamming , , . I usually fuzzy guard , , . But sometimes i whiff my guard, and i eat the last . Indeed this last seems to be unholdable if you did not block the , . Do you confirm this or may be i had incorrect timing?

2) How you counter his advance SS ? () . Kokoro lacks tracking tools but may be there is one that is better than a block.

3) Hayate has a family of mind games coming from the string (such as or or or a throw ). I found that the best answer for me is just a poke or , Is that correct ?

 

[Thanapon Buamongkol]

1) Hold the second K (the low sweep) which is totally able to react once you notice 3H+K deployed, avoid to hold 3H+K and do not try to hold P (P is holdable but you need to whiff the second K somehow). However, next time Hayate might just 3H+K then low throw you. I personally prefer guard (stand-crouch-stand) rather than try hold attempt much.

2) I don't think Kokoro has effective way to deal with that SS. 6PP help a bit but not good enough to rely on. The same problem or even worst with Bayman's SS OH.

3) I'm not quite success to approach Hayate once he is at his long range. My best bet is P+K with 6PPP follow up. Again, I prefer defensive rather than approaching him or try whiff punishment sometime with 44(back dash)+214P which only scratch him.

PS. As I just finished the match with you a few minutes ago. You are already pretty good at her Heichu, however, after you notice that your 2H+KK has been blocked even stand blocked, it is better to block or SS+K rather than try attack immediately because most of the time you will eat counter.

 

[ScattereDreams]

With ducking being faster in 1.04 it'll be easier to react to the low follow up. Of course if Hayate doesn't follow up with the low sweep or attempt to delay you can check him with 6p

 

[jjinkou2]

PS. As I just finished the match with you a few minutes ago. You are already pretty good at her Heichu, however, after you notice that your 2H+KK has been blocked even stand blocked, it is better to block or SS+K rather than try attack immediately because most of the time you will eat counter.

wow thank you for your advice. I didn't notice we were fighting together . I'll pay more attention next time (i thought i would never play with you, due to time difference.) I know i'm too much in the heat here and there. When i get blocked i usually attack again and then i bite the dust. i must keep my composure.


Ok another question below for :
i saw a video from @UprisingJC for kasumi to deal with christie's

.

I try to find an answer for Kokoro (tested only on DOA5+ not in DOA5U) and it seems that after blocking the first two P is correct. it crushes the following or it can hit christie when she goes into Jak stance. Anyone has a better answer? Maybe in DOA5U the sabaki could be used also ? (to be tested at home tonight).

 

[Bushido]

Is pretty risky because of the strict timing it requires. Do deal with Christie's ...Probably best to either block, hold, or sidestep. I don't really know as this is from the top of my head. So, just test some situations and find the best tactic that works for you. To deal with Hayate's special sidestep is the same way to deal with JAK. Patience and fast reactions. Kokoro has very quick mids that can stop them mid animation for a re-track since there is a slight pause between the attacks from the sidesteps. , , , , , and all have re-track properties. If you block their moves from the SS, make sure you throw punish. I think all of them are unsafe from JAK and Hayate's SS.