Low holds should not beat standing throws.

[Skilletor]

lol. This thread shows why DoA5 is closer to DoA4 than it should've been.

 

[TakedaZX]

I twisted the words you said into something they didn't even mean in the first place because I'm either not able to read, or I'm just arrogant.

It doesn't make sense for a low hold to do more than the other holds when it doesn't have more disadvantages. This is how balance works. It's just another stupid relic Team Ninja left unchecked in order to punish the offender for offense.

- More grab damage off of a low grab, which one again, doesn't have to be a guess. You're just impatient. You're also arrogant -.-

There's tons of ways to fix it and put it on par with the other defensive holds, but since you can guess your way out of it sometimes it shouldn't be an issue. DOA4 would be so proud.

It's not a guess if you pay attention. Once again, your problem is your too impatient and arrogant to realize it's not hard to low grab someone who literally whiffs one right in front of you after a stun. To go further, if you weren't so incompetent, you'd probably throwing out a mid punch or mid kick, to extend your stun game. You punish whiffs with grabs or stuns. Standing Grabs aren't the solution.

IF YOU CAN'T SEE THIS DR2K, YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU'RE BLIND. REACT BY SIGHT, NOT BY YOUR BRAIN. GUESSING IS UNNECESSARY. REACT TO WHAT YOU SEE. LOOK FOR A HEAD LIFT OR DROP WHEN YOU HEAR THE "HUH". DO NOT GUESS. USE THE EYES GOD/ALLAH/EVOLUTION GAVE YOU. DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY POINT NOW?

REACT TO WHAT YOU SEE.

PAY ATTENTION.

DON'T GUESS.

This is where I end the argument cause anything further would end up in a flame war just because you're going to sit here and say everyone is telling you to guess more when, all we've been saying is watch the height, and grab. The second they hold, that's the point of no return. Predicting is nice and all, but it's not always necessary. In a holding out of a stun situation... definitely not.

 

[Skilletor]

It's a guess because I, the attacker, did something right and stunned my opponent and now the defender has the option to A. do a mid/high counter or B. do a low counter. If A, then my throw works. If B. Then my high and my throw go over my opponent's head.

Since I did something right, I should be rewarded, but I'm not. I have to wait. I have to guess.

Same shit, different day. I, the attacker, the person that did something right, still have to wait and see what my opponent does after they've fucked up. The fact that this thread is 6 pages long and people are still arguing about it is hilarious to me.

/me goes back to a game with working online.

 

[DR2K]

- More grab damage off of a low grab, which one again, doesn't have to be a guess. You're just impatient. You're also arrogant -.-



DON'T GUESS.

This is where I end the argument cause anything further would end up in a flame war just because you're going to sit here and say everyone is telling you to guess more when, all we've been saying is watch the height, and grab. The second they hold, that's the point of no return. Predicting is nice and all, but it's not always necessary. In a holding out of a stun situation... definitely not.

We've already went over how it isn't more since you have less offensive options.

At least be consistant with your arguement. First you tell me to guess then you clearly tell me not to.

 

[Skilletor]

The "don't guess" so that you can wait for the visual and audio cue also assumes you wait each time your opponent is stunned, which in itself is a guess.

 

[TakedaZX]

how do e

how do ex low attacks work in VF? all I know is that you can block them standing, so I call them "fake" low attacks.

on DR2K's point, from a game design perspective, I agree with him completely. while there are exceptions to the rule in most fighting games, low holds subvert the triangle system too easily. for example, there are methods to defend against most manners of attack at once in virtua fighter (that crouch dash guard option select thing), or ways to defend against a full circle attacks after sidestepping them (I'm not certain of the effectiveness of this though). these exceptions in VF are limited by execution requirements though, they are not easy to do, and require precise timing (so I don't use them). I think limiting mechanics through execution is lame, but they can serve their purpose.

with low holds, its doubly bad because they are extremely easy to pull off and they force the attacking player to guess even more when he knocks the opponent in critical stun (which I find to be quite frequently). low holds work against high and low strikes, as well as standing throws, when throws are supposed to beat holds in the triangle system. too much guessing involved for the attacker is a bad thing.

I think its important to distinguish this discussion as a commentary on the game's design rather than what's actually in the game. many people have already stated that there are ways to bait and beat low counters, but that's not the point of the discussion, its whether the mechanic should work the way it does.

A low hold may have made me lose out in DOA4, but in DOA5, the holds last longer in general. Like I said before, a longer recovery isn't such a bad idea, but breaking something off that's been in DOA forever like this shouldn't be taken out. Low guarding does the same, are you gunna tell me that low guarding shouldn't beat standing throws?

So I'll go for the recovery but a low hold doesn't need to change to be easier to retaliate against. It works just fine how it is. Standing throws aren't the way to go.

 

[Skilletor]

You can't low guard in the middle of my combos. Specious logic.

Low guard also doesn't do damage to the attacker.

How are you comparing them again?

And there are lots of things that have been around in DoA for a long time. That doesn't make it good or necessary.

 

[MaxwellMouse]

I agree with TC. Low hold are an issue. They have too many options. I should not whiff a high attack and then get punished for it before I can act.

 

[virtuaPAI]

-Going for optimal options would not be Either a low or high attack. Mid attacks would stop both low holding in its tracks, and receive counter strike revision + higher float from a launcher. The only time a throw will come into place is to keep the defender scared of Holding, essentially trapping them in the mixup.

 

[TakedaZX]

We've already went over how it isn't more since you have less offensive options.

At least be consistant with your arguement. First you tell me to guess then you clearly tell me not to.

Quote me.

You can't low guard in the middle of my combos. Specious logic.

Low guard also doesn't do damage to the attacker.

How are you comparing them, again?

(0 - 0) Left is hold, right is low guarding

Low hold tech crouches and so does Low guarding. (0 - 0)
Low throws beat both. Low holds take more damage. (0 - 1)
Mids beat low guards and holds. Low holds take more damage. (0 - 2)
Low holds can instant tech crouch out of a stun. Low guards need SE (1 - 2)
Low holds damage the attacker, if the move impacts at the right frames. Low Guarding generally puts you at advantage on just about any low, giving you time to retaliate, whether it be with a low throw or starting off the stun game. (2.5, because of the chance of a hi counter for some generally good damage - 2.5, because it's move dependent on what options you have for throwing or stunning)
Low holds have recovery in which you're vulnerable to lows and mids. Low guarding depends on you letting up or staying down, but as long as you are guarding, you will stop those lows. (2.5 - 3.5)

Hm, I think low guarding wins, even after only giving it a half for what's really made for, guarding low moves. Most people take it or granted because it's tough to remember when to low guard in a string but at least it's something solid. Low holds have a good risk reward system, and if you goof, well you goof, with guarding it's less of a risk there for the consequences aren't as bad, but it only works if you predict or see it coming before. If that little layout above doesn't spell it out, then I don't know what will.

inb4 someone pulls out, but were just talking about the holds.

(0 - 0) left - standing holds, right - lows
standing holds are vulnerable to 3 hit levels for HC dmg. Low holds are vulnerable to 2. (0 - 1)
standing holds are vulnerable to standing grabs for hicounter damage. low holds are vulnerable to low throws for hicounter dmg also. (1 - 1)*

*Why do they balance out? Because, while you get an instant tech crouch off of that, when someone low grabs you(which trust me it will happen to you), you'll end up eating some major damage. How do I figure? Lets example Hitomi.

Standing Throws

• Neutral
  • T - i5 - 38 dmg
• Single Direction
  • 6T - i10 - 25 dmg
  • 4T - i7 - 42 dmg
• Double or Curve Notation
  • 33T - i12 - 55 dmg
  • 236T ~ T - i10 - 65 dmg

Crouching Throws

• There's only two single direction ones
  • 2T - i5 - 48 dmg
  • 1T - i7 - 50 dmg

T - i5 - 38 dmg = 2T - i5 - 48 dmg
4T - i7 - 42 dmg = 1T - i7 - 50 dmg

So as you can see. Low throws give more damage for being less common, but when they do get connected you get the benefit of the extra damage, then throw on the idea of hi counter and you'll be dishing out 72/74 damage and a wall bang to bump up that 74 to 84. That's how the balance is achieved. By adding another defensive option, you make the game a bit more of a challenge, and for "guessing" right you get a damage buff on your i5 and i7 grab. If you wanna go as far as to say watching or waiting is a guess, then the low hold is also a guess. You have to guess that the person is probably going to go high so that you can instantly duck that and hope you end up at advantage even if it's only by 1 frame, which is realistic.

So the argument is why should a low hold have more defensive options than the rest of the holds. To add depth. Once you have that, you realize, oh wait, that means it's easier for the defender but not impossible to figure out, so to balance that out, for "guessing" correctly, you get rewarded with more damage and mental blow to the opponent. I don't see what's wrong with that. The balance is achieved in damage. Damage is the fix here. Why is that being ignored?

Lets reopen my point on low guarding with Hitomi again. Lets assume a mirror match, and/or against Kasumi, ok?

Hitomi has a few lows, and she's also unlucky to have no tech crouches, except 3H+K which only tech crouches after the impact, and it's a tech jump anyway, plus a frame trap(-4):
2p(-4) - Frame Trap, but still disadvantage
236T ~ T, breakable but guaranteed if buffered correctly, and 6T for mixups.
1k(-9) standing - Kasumi Jab. T, 4T, 6T.
2k(-9) standing - Kasumi Jab. T, 4T, 6T.
1p(-10) - punishable with p but holdable, T which is breakable, 4T guaranteed no matter what,
2h+k(-16/-17, differentiates between strings)Standing - Best Guts(Good Damage Single Hit Punishers, 46p, 236p, 4H+K.
2kk(-18) standing - 236k or 46k into 236k, 236p, 46p, or other guaranteed mix-ups off the stumble away stun... someone give me a name for that.

The point here is there's an option for each one(excluding 2p which is a generic jab anyway). So if you do block and know what you're doing, instead of going for a low damage mix-up, you can get a guaranteed blow on the opponent.

 

[Prince Adon]

-Going for optimal options would not be Either a low or high attack. Mid attacks would stop both low holding in its tracks, and receive counter strike revision + higher float from a launcher. The only time a throw will come into place is to keep the defender scared of Holding, essentially trapping them in the mixup.

This is what I've been saying. There are all kinds of ways to punish low holds that do not require you to GUESS. If you are guessing that is the player problem altogether. I've been playing DOA5 religiously and is yet to see someone getting a advantage from low countering, and considering that I do it often(since stagger escaping is pretty difficult online than offline) , and you chance getting damage more than you would if you did a mid/high hold.

Also I see "you have less options against low hold" how is that so? You can stun your opponent off of a mid(which is pretty damn critical) get a hi hold throw(which again is damaging), and you got options to mix in launchers, sit down stun tactics, critical burst..but it's too much compared to other holds? People been doing low holds since DOA2 and if you haven't caught on by now(considering how punishable it is now) there is just a problem in your game. Step it up.

If you want a guaranteed punish from someone doing a low hold either low throw, mid stun(sit down stun is recommended), critical burst(if during a string), or a quick launcher(give extra height). You can get a free combo off of anything after any of those.

 

[DR2K]

The other 3 holds are susceptible to the every single high damage throw/attack/launcher in the game. Low holds evade some of them and allow you to recover even before.

Low holds just give better odds to the defender and for no reason. Doubling the recovery frames would be a fair trade off for it. Because then there wouldn't be as much of a need for "prediction" or "stopping your offense to wait".

 

[TakedaZX]

The other 3 holds are susceptible to the every single high damage throw/attack/launcher in the game. Low holds evade some of them and allow you to recover even before.

Low holds just give better odds to the defender and for no reason. Doubling the recovery frames would be a fair trade off for it. Because then there wouldn't be as much of a need for "prediction" or "stopping your offense to wait".

Read my comment, I prefer you read it all, but where the *(asterisk) lies, is most important to the comment you just made.

You said you wanted standing throws added to their punishment list. Well if that's the case then every throw in this game is going to need to get nerfed because they'll be way too easy to get, at any point in the stun game.

If you want to talk about frames, we can talk about that. The difference in standing and low holds as far as recovery doesn't seem to be much to the human eye, or the ear. I've been trying to hold high then mash out ppp, then i've tried holding low then mashing out ppp. It sounds the same, looks the same and feels the same. I tried spamming the holds, and it feels the same. I tried holding then guarding for both. Looks the same. The margin should be a bit bigger. I don't think that doubling it would be right, but somewhere in between that would be realistic.

 

[DR2K]

Read my comment, I prefer you read it all, but where the *(asterisk) is most important to the comment you just said.

You said you wanted standing throws added to their punishment list. Well if that's the case then every throw in this game is going to need to get nerfed because they'll be way to easy to get, at any point in the stun game.

Depth = defender having more options = DOA4 = random =/= depth. There's a fine line between depth and random.

Optimally I want standing throws to cause a sit down stun on low holds. But I'll take any nerf to it that I can get. Realistically more recovery frames. This way low holds can evade what they already do, but they never allow for the defender to recover faster than the opponent and can be reacted to fast enough to punish.

 

[virtuaPAI]

The other 3 holds are susceptible to the every single high damage throw/attack/launcher in the game. Low holds evade some of them and allow you to recover even before.

Low holds just give better odds to the defender and for no reason. Doubling the recovery frames would be a fair trade off for it. Because then there wouldn't be as much of a need for "prediction" or "stopping your offense to wait".

-That's if and only if you are doing either a high or low attack. Unlike the other hold options, mid attacks punish low holds more severely with the Counter strike initial damage+higher launch = even more damage. In the scheme of things, you are rewarded more in the game for going with a mid, than you would with either a high or low. In other words, using highs and lows are a faux mixup that will reward you far less than going for the Mid attack/throw mixup.

 

[DR2K]

-That's if and only if you are doing either a high or low attack. Unlike the other hold options, mid attacks punish low holds more severely with the Counter strike initial damage+higher launch = even more damage. In the scheme of things, you are rewarded more in the game for going with a mid, than you would with either a high or low. In other words, using highs and lows are a faux mixup that will reward you far less than going for the Mid attack/throw mixup.

So the offender has to risk limiting their options to mids for a "true" mix up?

So only low holds gets counter strike damage/higher launch or any attack hitting a wrong hold?

 

[Prince Adon]

The other 3 holds are susceptible to the every single high damage throw/attack/launcher in the game. Low holds evade some of them and allow you to recover even before.

Low holds just give better odds to the defender and for no reason. Doubling the recovery frames would be a fair trade off for it. Because then there wouldn't be as much of a need for "prediction" or "stopping your offense to wait".

The defender low holding still has to do it on reaction to use it properly, and even then they have a chance of being punished. Unless you're facing a spammer who is even more easy to punish from low holds. No one would be low holding often in DOA5 unless the opponent is just simply allowing them to get away with it. Most(if not all) high attacks go into mids. If your opponent low holds your high attack you can easily go into a mid and get a nasty stun. If you going for a throw and your opponent is low holding and you get it wrong it is simply because you "guessed" and wasn't aware, because you shouldn't be going for a throw while your opponent is stunned in the first place, right? The only time you have to "wait" is when you know your opponent is going to counter (this can be ANY counter from a stun and it's not hard to react to them) and you expecting to go for a throw. It doesn't matter if it's a stand or crouch you still have to "wait". Like said before this is all pretty much common sense.

So the offender has to risk limiting their options to mids for a "true" mix up?

So only low holds gets counter strike damage/higher launch or any attack hitting a wrong hold?

Why does it matter if you are "limited" if it's something that guaranteeing punish? You have to limit yourself to someone who is "crouching" compared to someone who is standing. Point is if you know the tools to punish it there should be no problem. Your problem sounds like you hate the fact you can't punish your opponent your way for the fact they're crouching after a low hold which is just stupid.

 

[DR2K]

The defender low holding still has to do it on reaction to use it properly, and even then they have a chance of being punished

My point is it should do what it does. Period.

I want that chance to be something more guaranteed.

 

[virtuaPAI]

So the offender has to risk limiting their options to mids for a "true" mix up?

So only low holds gets counter strike damage/higher launch or any attack hitting a wrong hold?

-So you the offender is going to make arbitrary mixups, that will never condition the opponent for the sake of having non beneficial options? You the offender is not going to use the best tools available(mid attacks), that cover all hold ranges while limiting your opponents options?

-Yes! Only failed low holds get counter strike damage/ higher launch when a mid connects.

 

[Prince Adon]

I listed plenty of guaranteed. What more do you need? =/