Low holds should not beat standing throws.

[Home Consumer]

In previous DOA games, I think this thread has a very valid point because low holds did recover far too quickly. Now in DOA 5 they recover in about the same time as a standing hold (don't know the exact frame comparison), but I no longer have the issues I used to have in DOA2U or DOA 4 online where my whole gameplay had to adapt around the low hold advantage (both defensively and offensively).

With that said, it is much harder to be constantly aware of whether your opponent uses a standing or crouching hold, so I can see why people would complain, but I recommend looking at each character's animations for their standing holds and low hold in training mode. Some characters are easier than others to determine whether or not they've done a standing or low hold. I think it would be kind of interesting if there was a different voice grunt for a standing or low hold. It could be subtle but might add a nifty angle to the game (could try to train blindfolded).

 

[virtuaPAI]

I am...confused at what your getting at. mid attacks do not eliminate the guessing game, you still get countered by the opponent in critical stun if they correctly predict your mid kick, mid punch, or low attack. The mix up on the offensive player is still there, its still Rock Paper Scissors; only the advantage is leaning towards the offensive player (which is, of coarse, good), since they have more options than the opponent, as you already established, .

don't get me wrong though, I don't have a major issue with how the game handles the hold system. it irks me slightly, but I can't mash hold all day and get away with it, and its a blast punishing those who try to.

-I feel some players are overstating the situation and making it more complicated than need be. You the offensive player have your opponent stunned. He, and only he need to guess to get out of the stun. You can do essentially anything that you want. However, since mid attacks do the most damage and is the most effective(in stopping your opponents options), that is the attack your opponent will want to hold. You should do it as often as possible to condition your opponent into seeing and expecting it. When ever they decide to hold, bam, a high counter throw. Its very simple, very effective, and do not require convoluted mixups.

 

[Skilletor]

I have to train my opponent to guess wrong to get the damage I deserve after they've already messed up.

Sounds pretty convoluted to me.

 

[Home Consumer]

I have to train my opponent to guess wrong to get the damage I deserve after they've already messed up.

Sounds pretty convoluted to me.

What exactly is the damage "you deserve" off of a single stun? 20? 60? 100? What amount of damage are you willing to declare as free damage because your opponent "messed up" once?

 

[Raansu]

What exactly is the damage "you deserve" off of a single stun? 20? 60? 100? What amount of damage are you willing to declare as free damage because your opponent "messed up" once?

Does it matter? His point was why should he be punished with more guessing after stunning his opponent. There is not enough situations in the game that remove the hold.

 

[Home Consumer]

Does it matter? His point was why should he be punished with more guessing after stunning his opponent. There is not enough situations in the game that remove the hold.

Of course it matters. The DOA game has traditionally been about risk vs reward, where the longer you play the stun guessing game, the bigger your free damage reward when finally getting the launcher. Or in DOA 5's case, a possible critical burst stun into enormous free damage.

You can always launch your opponent after the first stun for minimal risk, but then you aren't given much free damage.

This is the whole foundation of the DOA game. More risk = more free damage. And you're telling me that the sum of free damage during the "risk phase" is irrelevant?

 

[Skilletor]

Yay, I love guessing.

 

[Zeo]

Yay, I love guessing.

Surprised you still play DOA then. It's been that way since 4. Even 3 had guessing in one form or another. It will never be completely removed as long as the hold system exists.

 

[Raansu]

Of course it matters. The DOA game has traditionally been about risk vs reward, where the longer you play the stun guessing game, the bigger your free damage reward when finally getting the launcher. Or in DOA 5's case, a possible critical burst stun into enormous free damage.

You can always launch your opponent after the first stun for minimal risk, but then you aren't given much free damage.

This is the whole foundation of the DOA game. More risk = more free damage. And you're telling me that the sum of free damage during the "risk phase" is irrelevant?

I'm telling you its stupid and needs to be changed. I shouldn't have to worry about the hold after I have broken your defense and got you into a stun. Your only option in a stun should be slow escaping.

 

[Prince Adon]

I think people that are complaining is simply playing the wrong game. DOA been about the hold system since doa1(and boy was doa1 hold system bad), and if you expect that to change because you want to minimize the "guessing" game for more FREE punish reward you are just simply playing the wrong game. This isn't VF, or any other fighter(or game) you compare it to. This is DOA. Simply play something else if you have a problem with "guessing". Doesn't matter if you're good at another fighter(or game), if you can't beat DOA hold system just because you feel you have to guess that's your problem and not the game.

 

[Rikuto]

Dear Angry Mob,

THIS game is not changing. Save your bitching for DOA 6. I may even join you when that time comes.

If your character can't utilize good DOA 5 options that remove the hold from the equation and it pisses you off, play a character that does. They do exist. Start with Rig and Kokoro and work from there. Both of them can take between 1/3 to 1/2 lifebar off of one good hit with absolutely zero threat from an in-stun hold. If you would rather capitalize off of the hold system, play Bayman/Leifang. If you would like to punish the use of the hold system, play Tina/Bass. You have a lot of different playstyles available this time around and it seems like most of the complaining is coming from people who have no idea how to utilize their own characters.

If you don't like any of the characters that play the way you keep asking them to play, then you need to either re-evaluate your actual problems or play a different game. That's pretty much all that can be said for you guys.


Sincerely,
The Only Guy Not Losing His Shit

 

[Raansu]

I think people that are complaining is simply playing the wrong game. DOA been about the hold system since doa1(and boy was doa1 hold system bad), and if you expect that to change because you want to minimize the "guessing" game for more FREE punish reward you are just simply playing the wrong game. This isn't VF, or any other fighter(or game) you compare it to. This is DOA. Simply play something else if you have a problem with "guessing". Doesn't matter if you're good at another fighter(or game), if you can't beat DOA hold system just because you feel you have to guess that's your problem and not the game.

And people like you are holding the games potential back. Nothing wrong with holds in general, but holds in stun is what is stupid.

 

[Prince Adon]

How is holds in stuns stupid? If stuns didn't have holds the game would be pretty broken since your opponent would be completely raped if they couldn't break a stun. And even when they break a stun it's not like they chance not being punished. So how is it an issue? Because it's not played how you want it?

 

[Rikuto]

And people like you are holding the games potential back. Nothing wrong with holds in general, but holds in stun is what is stupid.

Shame on you for bringing up this stupid discussion again. You know damn well you have options that you are choosing not to utilize.

 

[virtuaPAI]

I have to train my opponent to guess wrong to get the damage I deserve after they've already messed up.

Sounds pretty convoluted to me.

And where was that stated?

 

[DR2K]

My main arguement is that low holds should have more recovery frames (or any nerf, like the ones I suggested) because of its evasive properties. It would still be the same guessing game we all love, but it would offset its advantages over the other holds.

 

[Jefffcore]

I'm telling you its stupid and needs to be changed. I shouldn't have to worry about the hold after I have broken your defense and got you into a stun. Your only option in a stun should be slow escaping.

Pun intended?

 

[Rikuto]

I have to train my opponent to guess wrong to get the damage I deserve after they've already messed up.

Sounds pretty convoluted to me.

No, you're choosing to. Game starts at the character select screen.

It can also be argued that you don't really deserve much of anything in the way of damage as stuns are coming far easier in DOA than they do in Tekken, VF or SC.

My main arguement is that low holds should have more recovery frames (or any nerf, like the ones I suggested) because of its evasive properties. It would still be the same guessing game we all love, but it would offset its advantages over the other holds.

I'm not going to argue it either. It's a good point that I happen to agree with.



But isn't this the fiftieth time we've approached this subject and had the forum argue about it? It hasn't changed TN's mind in the past and the debate just ends up souring people. What good can possibly come from this thread right now?

Time comes when people need to just drop it and get ready for the next battle.

 

[DR2K]

But isn't this the fiftieth time we've approached this subject and had the forum argue about it? It hasn't changed TN's mind in the past and the debate just ends up souring people. What good can possibly come from this thread right now?

Time comes when people need to just drop it and get ready for the next battle.

Eh, we have their ear and they might be able to include it in their upcoming patch/s.

 

[Rikuto]

You've had their ear the last fifty times too. The reason it hasn't changed isn't due to lack of communication. I assure you this piece of feedback has been delivered in nearly every way possible, from just about every region outside of their own.