Low holds should not beat standing throws.

[Master_Thespian]

Sufficed to say, there is nothing hypocritical here (and when you accuse someone of hypocrisy, yes you are belittling them). The arguments of pre-E3 simply do not work against the current game, at all. That's why you aren't hearing them from me. If we were still playing with DOA 4 mechanics, you wouldn't be hearing them from me either because I would have moved on already.

Instead I'm being treated to people bitching about the game like it is DOA 4 when it isn't. The crusade is over. That kind of passion against the mechanics of the game is no longer warranted and we don't need this thread for the fiftieth fucking time.

You seem to be aware of this, so don't go making blind insinuations about my character for the lolz of it. I'm not going to play victim but I'm not going to listen to bullshit about my character either.

As for the game itself, it's a vast improvement over DOA4 and I've gone on record as having said that. But personally, it's still not a game worthy of the limited time I can dedicate to gaming. It is for you, no big deal. It's not hypocritical for you to settle for what you got or for you to even think people should put up or shut up. It crosses into hypocrisy when you try to decree the conversation as dead from a position of moral or intellectual authority, for the reasons I already outlined.

The fact that you can't differentiate between someone classifying a few of your actions and someone belittling you is sad. If I compared you to a perpetually scalded dog whose incessant barking only ceased because it was thrilled to finally be allowed into the house by it's master, then you could make the claim that I attempted to belittle you in the way you tried to with me. I didn't, so stop trying to rewrite the narrative. Anyone, regardless of their character, can do hypocritical things. Everything I said was based on things you posted (and their timing in relation to real life events) and nothing else. You counter by apparently creating arguments for me that I never made in the first place or were the exact opposite of what I actually said to have something to attack (i.e. DOA5 is the same as DOA4, "insinuations about your character for the lolz of it").

If you say you're not going to play the victim, stop playing the victim.

 

[Rikuto]

As for the game itself, it's a vast improvement over DOA4 and I've gone on record as having said that. But personally, it's still not a game worthy of the limited time I can dedicate to gaming. It is for you, no big deal. It's not hypocritical for you to settle for what you got or for you to even think people should put up or shut up. It crosses into hypocrisy when you try to decree the conversation as dead from a position of moral or intellectual authority, for the reasons I already outlined.

Except your reasons sucked. The only reason we were speaking publicly about the issues in such a manner was because we had no hard line to Team Ninja and it was the only way to get the issues known, despite the fact it created drama. Post E3 we had a hard line. Boom. Done deal. No more reason for drama.

Yet here we are, with the hard line, and still creating drama. You still think its hypocritical for me to tell everyone to put a sock in it, after the stance I've already shown to take in regards to the games welfare? What, we aren't trustworthy or something? We're not Manny. I thought that much was clear.

The fact that you can't differentiate between someone classifying a few of your actions and someone belittling you is sad. If I compared you to a perpetually scalded dog whose incessant barking only ceased because it was thrilled to finally be allowed into the house by it's master, then you could make the claim that I attempted to belittle you in the way you tried to with me. I didn't, so stop trying to rewrite the narrative. Anyone, regardless of their character, can do hypocritical things. Everything I said was based on things you posted (and their timing in relation to real life events) and nothing else. You counter by apparently creating arguments for me that I never made in the first place or were the exact opposite of what I actually said to have something to attack (i.e. DOA5 is the same as DOA4, "insinuations about your character for the lolz of it").

If you say you're not going to play the victim, stop playing the victim.

Hypocrite: A person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

You may come from a land where people have a fairly shitty standard of behavior and the lack of any moral backbone is normal, but where I come from calling somebody that is a pretty big insult. In life, integrity is the only thing that matters.

I'm not playing any victim here. But if you knock me I will knock you back. My integrity got me to where I am and I won't have anyone try to question it.

If you understand, then we can drop it.

 

[Master_Thespian]

Two things before I'm done with this:

A) Merriam-Webster defines a hypocrite as:
"A person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings."

You laid out a litany of gameplay mechanics that needed to be changed; ones you claimed that people should not be silent about. Now that the game is out and they aren't changed you're telling people to be silent about it. That is a contradiction of your actions and stated beliefs. Unless, of course, all along you meant you wanted people to raise hell about the issues with the engine up until the game came out and then shut up and play whatever Team Ninja threw our way once they released the game. If so, I'm sorry I missed that part.

B) Not that it even matters to you because I've already said this before (explicitly) but I didn't say you were a hypocrite. I said your statements were hypocritical and even took the time to make the distinction. I come from a place where a man can look at a mistake he made, own up to it, and not take the very mention of said mistake as some assault on their very being as if they were some character in a fantasy novel staring down the proposition of a duel to the death (there's a reason people say "man up" when someone fucks up). But I also find the notion that "the only thing that matters in life is [one's] integrity!" a romantic simplification of values that is also better suited for shallow fiction and not the real world. So yes, you and I are clearly from a different land.

In the end, I know that awkwardly battling straw-men isn't having a moral backbone and pointing out the errors in judgement of a (generally) respected community member isn't evidence of a shitty standard of behavior. I wish you and the rest of the DOA community success and I hope that in the eventual DOA6 Team Ninja gives us the game we (nearly) unanimously wanted in the first place.

 

[Skilletor]

My integrity got me to where I am and I won't have anyone try to question it.

If you understand, then we can drop it.

The irony is delicious.

 

[Stikku]

Romney-Rikuto 2012

All of that made DoA4 trash.

I need not remind you Raansu, that it is only your opinion that DOA4 wasn't a good game. An unpopular opinion at that, seeing as DOA4 was great enough for AM2 and Namco Bandai to take inspiration from. Hey Raansu, how's XDest? Would you consider him a better player than you? cause I wouldn't consider him a good player in the least, unless we strictly use the term "player" as an analogy for "con-artist," which he was still not that great at.

 

[Game Over]

Hey Raansu, how's XDest? Would you consider him a better player than you? cause I wouldn't consider him a good player in the least, unless we strictly use the term "player" as an analogy for "con-artist," which he was still not that great at.

 

[Django]

after looking at stuns frames after holding in critical stun.
The recovery frame for holding out of critical stun is,
whatever the attack stun is on fastest stagger escape + the frame you did the hold on.
but some attacks don't let you hold on the very first frame, i.e. sitdown stuns
so the recovery will be the frame it lets you hold + frames it takes to fastest stagger escape.
all holds low/high/mid recovery work like this in critical stun.

so basically a hold recover frames are the same frame of Stagger Escape Fastest.

 

[Raansu]

Romney-Rikuto 2012


I need not remind you Raansu, that it is only your opinion that DOA4 wasn't a good game. An unpopular opinion at that, seeing as DOA4 was great enough for AM2 and Namco Bandai to take inspiration from. Hey Raansu, how's XDest? Would you consider him a better player than you? cause I wouldn't consider him a good player in the least, unless we strictly use the term "player" as an analogy for "con-artist," which he was still not that great at.

I have no opinion of XDest as he left very early in the games life and I literally have not spoken to him since around 2007. And I don't really see how XDest has anything to do with DoA4 being a bad game.

Also, I don't know what rock you are living under, but my "opinion" of DoA4 is far from unpopular. You will be hard pressed to find people on this site who thought DoA4 was a solid game. You are the minority here.

 

[Stikku]

I have no opinion of XDest as he left very early in the games life and I literally have not spoken to him since around 2007. And I don't really see how XDest has anything to do with DoA4 being a bad game.

Also, I don't know what rock you are living under, but my "opinion" of DoA4 is far from unpopular. You will be hard pressed to find people on this site who thought DoA4 was a solid game. You are the minority here.

Xdest has nothing to do with DOA4 being a bad game, which i'm thankful for!
I merely dropped his name cause I faintly remember you and him trolling along in DOA2U and DOA4 online lobbies years and years ago.

Regardless, I'm finding it hard to believe you would actually think DOA4 was a bad game, especially when you don't provide any examples to compare it to. Remember, this is a DOA fan site, not a DOA bashing site.


I've already given a bajillion examples (or in the very least, repeated a few over and over) of how DOA4 was/is, in factual reality, a superb fighting game. DOA5 is a longshot from being as great, and is more a bastardization of DOA rather than a worthy fighting game in the very least. It's buggy, glitchy, poorly designed, missing characters, and essentially unfinished. Having alright graphics doesn't make DOA5 a great fighting game, the over-sexualization of the women this time around has certainly not removed the stigma of DOA being for perverts, the lack of content shows it cannot compete with any fighting game released in the last 8 years, and the largest chunk of it's "new" concepts are simply "old" concepts from other fighters which have been poorly implemented.

DOA5 is the kusoge, Raansu. Not DOA4.

If DOA5 had another full year of development at Team Ninja before being released, then we might have a honest case of arguing simple opinions. However, As of today and as of DOA5's September 25th 2012 release, the entire package that DOA5 represents is not something worthy of being called a sequel, or being called 'great' or even 'good'. DOA5 is so unfinished that it's almost shameful to think that Team Ninja didn't acquire more time to delay the sale of this game so they could properly and competently finish it. The entire game bleeds rushed, half-baked anxiety.

 

[DR2K]

DOA4 is a good game and a bad fighter. DOA5 is a bad game and a good albeit somewhat confusing fighter. I just don't get how pig headed TN is with the hold system, I mean as long as the chicks tits still jiggle you'll be appeaing 100% of the Japanese fanbase.

 

[Raansu]

I merely dropped his name cause I faintly remember you and him trolling along in DOA2U and DOA4 online lobbies years and years ago.

Regardless, I'm finding it hard to believe you would actually think DOA4 was a bad game, especially when you don't provide any examples to compare it to. Remember, this is a DOA fan site, not a DOA bashing site.


I've already given a bajillion examples (or in the very least, repeated a few over and over) of how DOA4 was/is, in factual reality, a superb fighting game.

DOA5 is a longshot from being as great, and is more a bastardization of DOA rather than a worthy fighting game in the very least.

I didn't know about XDest until DoA4. I don't even think he played DoA2U. No one had even heard of me till DoA4, and that was only because I made some videos and posted a lot on xbox.com forums trying to help people to learn how to play the game. I wasn't even very good when I played DoA2U so I'm not sure how I was "trolling" lobbies when the majority of my game time in that game was playing the same group of people every night in closed rooms. I didn't start becoming decent at the game until near the end of its life span when I joined DOAC and tried to start learning the game after being beaten to submission by TB.

There is an entire thread on this site that explained everything bad about DoA4 and why the majority of the better players disliked it. DoA4 was a good casual game, but when it came to high level play it was trash. I don't need to explain it anymore, the horse was killed 5 years ago.

Every example you gave was the exact reason why DoA4 is disliked so much.

I may have my issues with DoA5, but it still plays closer to previous DoA's than DoA4 did. So calling it a bastardization of DoA is pure ignorance and makes me believe you mostly only played DoA4 as that game played almost nothing like the older DoA games.

 

[Rikuto]

I've made no mistakes here, nor acted in hypocrisy to anything I've said.

As I said before the original method of communication, making a shitload of noise on the forums, is no longer worth it. We didn't have a hardline then, we have one now. We understand exactly how things work inside the company and can deliver the feedback in a much more efficient manner. My actions are only hypocritical if literally nothing has changed, and things have changed drastically.

-- Children have been playing in a dirty river

-- Man tells his children not to jump in the river.

-- Man catches on fire

-- Man jumps in the river

-- Children call him a hypocrite

I've gota say, I'm getting rather tired of dealing with ignorant children.

 

[Tones]

I'm telling you its stupid and needs to be changed. I shouldn't have to worry about the hold after I have broken your defense and got you into a stun. Your only option in a stun should be slow escaping.

A low hold = free launcher, free throw or power blow. Why yes waiter, me and my Lisa will take 40-50% health from my opponent from a hi-counter hold. What's a launcher and juggle? About 70 damage? Most 12 frame throws should do about that on hi-counter. Apart from that sometimes you have the option to PB. Counter bait failed?... You can always SS cancel it. The other options for it are that it lands or you get frame advantage.

It's not guessing when you realize you have options.

I think it's cute low holds beat 2 levels of attacks and throws. It's something that's worth but it is not worth it when you're down on health.

2 ways to overcome that, use more mids or start throwing lows. Doing that 2-3 times will drain about 50% of the counter guys health.

There is no need to remove or change it. There are options around it. Also, make an opinion base on online play (I don't know if people who are posting are but readers more than like to do so).

Now let's just not make TN do something stupid because of us

 

[Master_Thespian]

-- Children have been playing in a dirty river
Hooray, let's start off by making more insults. I like where this is heading.
-- Man tells his children not to jump in the river.
Oh, we're *your* children now? At first, you were our "general", but that didn't truly convince people of your superiority.
-- Man catches on fire
Nice, more victimization.
-- Man jumps in the river
Well, what else can a victim do? Other than construct straw-men and move goalposts, of course.
-- Children call him a hypocrite
And finish off by here again ignoring what has been expressly stated to alter the narrative!

I'm going to help you out with your scenario:

-People by a car from a manufacturer. The car is beautiful, fast, and has great handling. But it's missing brakes, seat belts, airbags, turn signals.

-In time, people realize that no matter what potential the car might have, without those fundamentals it's unworthy of being anything more than a showroom car and move onto more cars instead.

-People stop buying cars from this manufacturer (who undergoes a massive change in management and doesn't release a car in almost a decade).

-A few of the car's diehard enthusiasts continue to support the car but nevertheless acknowledge that the missing functions are behind the car's terrible reputation and lack of fellow drivers.

-One plucky young enthusiast in particular takes it upon himself to not only accurately detail nearly every design flaw that needs to be rectified, but shouts that all other enthusiasts should take up the cause as well.

-The company sells access to a preview build of it's latest car and asks for feedback in the form of a detailed survey.

-Next, the company gives this plucky young enthusiast a direct line to the engineers and insight to the car's development.

-The company, despite the overwhelming feedback in the form of the survey and the supposed insistence of the plucky young enthusiast, decides to only institute seat belts and airbags.

-For some unknown reason, the company decides that seat belts and airbags that would save many of the lives that would have been lost from still not having brakes aren't fitting with the car's lineage and makes it so they only deploy five seconds after the crash instead of immediately.

-The car is released and not only did the company either skipped out on fixing the issues or did so in an ineffective and half-hearted fashion, new buyers find out that the car now has issues with the GPS and the A/C (which were never issues before).

-Understandably, the people who bought access to the preview build, gave feedback, and purchased this new car (which is better in some ways than the old car but worse in others) are either disappointed, furious, or just move on.

-To the buyers who didn't move on and want to continue to make their voices heard, the plucky young enthusiast says that the formerly free, unofficial discussion forum is now taking a "hardline" stance against these comments and that people need to just be happy with the game they got.

-He goes on to tell them that because he and a few other enthusiasts (who apparently were not listened to the first time around now) have a better form of communication with the manufacturer and *surely* the issues that have been consciously omitted will be corrected in the next model!

-When the plucky young enthusiast gets called on the fact that it is hypocritical of him to take this stance, he resorts to name calling, ignoring any facts that don't fit his narrative, and valiantly defeating (in his own mind) straw-men of his own creation.

I made the mistake of thinking that because you were knowledgeable about gameplay mechanics that you might be an intellectually and emotionally well-round individual. I'm going to just end this here because it's clear you're woefully out of your depth when you actually are forced into a dialogue with adults.

 

[Rikuto]

At least I know what a hypocrite is.

"Oh, I didn't say you were a hypocrite, I just said you're being hypocritical".... yea, that's like any different.

Oh, we're *your* children now? At first, you were our "general", but that didn't truly convince people of your superiority.

I can lord over you some more and act superior in other manners. Would you like that I refer to you as lowly peasant from now on? I haven't been that much of a jackass in a LONG time, but the similarities in how I have to treat you are starting to align a little too close for comfort.

And despite your whining and accusations of my being a hypocrite, as far as mechanics go I'm on your side giving all of the feedback that you want team ninja to have, and one of the only people actually making a difference for your sake... while you're basically just damaging the growth of the community and not contributing anything by continuing this abomination of a thread.

So basically, I'm right, you're wrong, shut up. At least here.

If you wanna give TN feedback yourself then hit the twitter, don't plague the forums and drive off newcomers. And don't impugn my integrity again when you haven't a fucking clue how to follow up on it.

 

[Raansu]

A low hold = free launcher, free throw or power blow. Why yes waiter, me and my Lisa will take 40-50% health from my opponent from a hi-counter hold.

I don't think you know what the OP's problem is at all. Good luck doing any of that while still recovering from your attack that whiffed because of a low hold that was thrown out randomly in stun and recovers before you do. Low holds shouldn't be that effective.

And if you're getting a free power blow off of someone doing a low hold then you are fighting some really terrible players. Who the hell holds low when at neutral from most likely mid range? Even more so if you're stupid enough to charge one point blank at neutral. And you're certainly not going to get one done during a stun as they will recover first.

 

[Master_Thespian]

At least I know what a hypocrite is.

"Oh, I didn't say you were a hypocrite, I just said you're being hypocritical".... yea, that's like any different.

You don't realize that a single action does not define a character? You're either stupid or feigning stupidity in an effort to draw attention away from the original points onto a straw-man debate you think you can win. I don't know you well enough to define your entire character. For instance, you're being an emotional bitch right now. Are you an emotional bitch at your core? Don't know. Don't care. I haven't done shit to this community by calling out *your* actions. I hurt *you* deeply and that's all this is about now.

The fact that you think this exchange makes you look superior in *any* way is precious.

We're talking about two things here:
-People should play the game or move on instead of bickering about mechanics that won't change in DOA5. Which I agreed with. Repeatedly. Team Ninja had all the feedback in the world over the past few years in general and the last six months in particular so I don't have any interest in wasting any more time trying to "communicate" that to them or playing a game that does not meet my minimum requirements.
-It is hypocritical for *you* to tell them to do so based on your past and current beliefs that the mechanics are not where they should be and your relationship with Team Ninja.

I followed up in very specific details about what you were doing, but you chose to ignore the explicitly factual ass-kicking I've been giving to you and moved the goalposts repeatedly. Which is the only move left for a petulant man-child to make when he's repeatedly been put in his place by a grown man.

But since you are going to continue to ignore the truth, as you consistently do to nurture your seemingly fragile self-esteem, I'll give you a lie so you can sleep well tonight.

You win.

 

[Rikuto]

It's ok Thespian.

I don't think you're an idiot.

I just think you're idiotic.

 

[Skilletor]

So basically, I'm right, you're wrong, shut up. At least here.

If you wanna give TN feedback yourself then hit the twitter, don't plague the forums and drive off newcomers. And don't impugn my integrity again when you haven't a fucking clue how to follow up on it.

Lol. Shutup, accept what we've been given, and if you have issues with the game, don't post them on the site the developers claim to read.

No hypocrisy here.

 

[Stikku]

There is an entire thread on this site that explained everything bad about DoA4 and why the majority of the better players disliked it.

It's inanely amusing how every complaint in that tiny ass 6 page thread applies more to DOA5 than they do to DOA4.

More specifically, your complaints.

this entire fucking post
+
..."And don't get the wrong idea here. I love Dead or Alive as a franchise, but I dislike doa4 because of the changes they made to the game. DoA4 was a complete step BACKWARDS from both doa2 and doa3."

First and foremost, DOA4 was the next logical step from Dead or Alive 2 Ultimate in terms of game play options. The game was updated and improved, they just didn't fucking change things around for no reason like they did in DOA5.

DOA5 is a complete step backwards from anything DOA. It's like some mad doctor butchered Tekken and Virtua Fighter and built some fuckin' Frankenstein out of the pieces. 99% of your post in that thread relates to problems of Dead or Alive 5, and not problems of Dead or Alive 4 - which is really odd unless you're some kind of psychic.

Dead or Alive 5 has more graphical, engineering, balance, and glitch issues than every other DOA game combined.
Team Ninja wasted an incredible amount of time creating a new engine rather than improving upon the DOA4 engine, and that seems to be the source of all the problems as well as the reason why the game feels so rushed and unfinished. Maybe the DOA4 engine had some limitations, who knows - but stupidly enough it was exponentially better than the new DOA5 engine. DOA5's existence just doesn't even make sense because it's so bad.

I'm not hating on DOA5 okay, don't get me wrong.
I'm hating the fact that it isn't a good game, nor is it better than DOA4.

I happen to like DOA4 and I know that you don't, but the fact that it isn't better than DOA4 should mean the same thing.

I've already dealt with the horrible feelings and disappointment. I suggest you grow up and deal with it as well.
There's no reason on earth Team Ninja should be proud of releasing DOA5 in the state it was, unless Shimbori or Hayashi have terminal cancer and it was their make-a-wish or something.

In fact, DOA5 is so backwards that it's literally 180° the wrong direction. It's inverted.
And what happens when you invert the Dead or Alive 5 logo?

You get a dream come true.