"May the bells of good fortune give her 10 good moves" Top 10 moves

[Omegan Eckhart]

Helena needs safety(frame advantage going into bokuho please) and damage. They're shit. She's not as bad as Drdogg initially hinted, but she's incredibly crippled in these 2 areas.

Safety yes, damage maybe, frame advantage going into Bokuho, no.

Put her at 0 when her 3in1's are blocked, I don't think Helena players deserve to be at an advantage when her 3in1's are blocked, it would make them too good. When they are blocked Helena already has a guessing game, if they go mid we can duck, if they throw we are safe. The one thing we need is to make it so if they attack with a low we can beat it out with our 6P.

As long as we have options to beat out whatever they do if we guess correctly then I think it will be fair. Only problem right now is the fact that we can be hit out of stance with 2P. Fix that and BKO will work great.

If you want frame advantage give it to 236P+K, unless you are fighting someone who is too afraid to attack that move is usless, hell make it guard crush.

 

[DR2K]

Safety yes, damage maybe, frame advantage going into Bokuho, no.

Put her at 0 when her 3in1's are blocked, I don't think Helena players deserve to be at an advantage when her 3in1's are blocked, it would make them too good. When they are blocked Helena already has a guessing game, if they go mid we can duck, if they throw we are safe. The one thing we need is to make it so if they attack with a low we can beat it out with our 6P.

As long as we have options to beat out whatever they do if we guess correctly then I think it will be fair. Only problem right now is the fact that we can be hit out of stance with 2P. Fix that and BKO will work great.

If you want frame advantage give it to 236P+K, unless you are fighting someone who is too afraid to attack that move is usless, hell make it guard crush.

Helena is pretty slow in bokuho, and I feel her stance transition moves should be her safe preferrably advantage moves. She's also unsafe going into BT. Neither of these should be the case. This is a stance based character, she lives and dies by the stance that she's in. Why is she always at disadvantage going into them? Why can't she transition in BT from regular stance naturally?

Once the whole new and confusion factor goes away *big hint everything really is a mid punch* and almost everything is throw punishable, everything. Her offense starts to crumble. She has no true pressure game, same as Lisa.

She's evasive. . . that's great and all, but she doesn't even excel at that compared to other stance based characters. Brad Wong and Ayane dance circles around her evasion and hit like miniture trucks.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Helena is pretty slow in bokuho, and I feel her stance transition moves should be her safe preferrably advantage moves. She's also unsafe going into BT. Neither of these should be the case. This is a stance based character, she lives and dies by the stance that she's in. Why is she always at disadvantage going into them? Why can't she transition in BT from regular stance naturally?

Once the whole new and confusion factor goes away *big hint everything really is a mid punch* and almost everything is throw punishable, everything. Her offense starts to crumble. She has no true pressure game, same as Lisa.

She's evasive. . . that's great and all, but she doesn't even excel at that compared to other stance based characters. Brad Wong and Ayane dance circles around her evasion and hit like miniture trucks.

Neither Brad Wong or Ayane can get into BT safely when their moves are blocked. If they made it possible for her they would need it too. I'm not really sure how you would make transitions into BT safe, make P4P 0 on block? I gotta say though what does she have in BT that you can't get in FF? I heard DrDogg say she should have a way to get into BT from neutral, I have wonder why though. What is so great about being in BT when they are not stunned?

I wouldn't say she is slow in BKO, she has a 12 frame jab and mid punch, that's better than most characters. Especially since she eliminates high's at the same time.

Her evasion isn't worse than Brad's or Ayane's it's just different. She can avoid mid's and cause attacks to whiff that they can't, meaning she can throw punish moves that no-one else can.

 

[DR2K]

No Ayane and Brad can just go into BT naturally. Which does wonders for their mix up games, since they don't have to commit to an attack to access their move pool.

12 frame move that loses 100% of the time to any character with an 11 frame mid. This is her going into BKO at 0 btw. So if she gets into it any other way she loses no matter what. That's pretty slow to me. Fun fact, every single move listed in the Helena's reccomended moves are unsafe. All of them sans f+K.

Her evasion is considerably worse since both Brad and Ayane have mobility and great whiff punishers. Helena doesn't get an option, she has to play up close if the opponent wants her to play up close. Her best whiff punisher is unsafe and it's also a mid punch. Ayane and Brad have guard breaks strings/moves that leave them at +5. Helena has no mobility or range she needs frame advanatge in her stances to be on an even level.

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

Should we ask for a patch/petition then, or is it hopeless ?

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

No Ayane and Brad can just go into BT naturally. Which does wonders for their mix up games, since they don't have to commit to an attack to access their move pool.
If they are at range we can get to BT by doing 4P, we don't need a faster option. If you decide to transition when they are close you deserve to eat a combo for playing stupidly. Neither Ayane or Brad can get into BT safely without proper spacing.

12 frame move that loses 100% of the time to any character with an 11 frame mid. This is her going into BKO at 0 btw. So if she gets into it any other way she loses no matter what. That's pretty slow to me.
If they use an 11 frame mid we have our BKO duck for that. How many characters have 11 frame mid's, 3 characters?

Fun fact, every single move listed in the Helena's reccomended moves are unsafe. All of them sans f+K.
Recommended moves? No idea what your referring to, you'll have to help me out on this one.

Her evasion is considerably worse since both Brad and Ayane have mobility and great whiff punishers. Helena doesn't get an option, she has to play up close if the opponent wants her to play up close.
She can ducks mid attacks causing them to whiff and get a free BKO grab, that's damn good whiff punishment.

Her best whiff punisher is unsafe and it's also a mid punch.
Doesn't matter if it's unsafe, if you are using it for whiff punishing then that shouldn't be a problem. She has her own strengths that they don't have, she doesn't need to good at everything they are.

Ayane and Brad have guard breaks strings/moves that leave them at +5. Helena has no mobility or range she needs frame advanatge in her stances to be on an even level.
This I can agree with, her only non charged attack that guard crushes is F+K or PPK from BT. Although not all characters have in strings guard crushes, giving her back her safety would fix this issue though.

 

[DR2K]

If they are at range we can get to BT by doing 4P, we don't need a faster option. If you decide to transition when they are close you deserve to eat a combo for playing stupidly. Neither Ayane or Brad can get into BT safely without proper spacing.

Coincidentally they have a bigger range game than Helena. "Proper" spacing is especially easy for Ayane. Since she can position herself in backflip immediately after attacks now. Back dash with built in guard break options to keep pressure, etc. . .

Recommended moves? No idea what your referring to, you'll have to help me out on this one.

Guide listing a characters top moves. All of Helena's are unsafe, big time.

She can ducks mid attacks causing them to whiff and get a free BKO grab, that's damn good whiff punishment.

Which got a major nerf there too since it lost the ability to beat all mids. Mids that go downward at all beat BKO duck.

Doesn't matter if it's unsafe, if you are using it for whiff punishing then that shouldn't be a problem. She has her own strengths that they don't have, she doesn't need to good at everything they are.

Yes it matters a lot because a smart opponent knows that almost every single attack she has in throw punishable. She excels at nothing, she isn't as good as Ayane at anything. Helena is parlor tricks, you probably think she's better than she is because people are letting you get away with murder online. I know I do.

This I can agree with, her only non charged attack that guard crushes is F+K or PPK from BT. Although not all characters have in strings guard crushes, giving her back her safety would fix this issue though.

She gets +7, while decent, it's her only safe move outside of 6kp, lol.

She's thankfully getting buffed, so hopefully these buffs add to her game plan. Frame advantage would be so integral to her stance game and make her an actual threat with a solid game plan going into matches.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I have the dark theme on so I couldn't read a word of this initially lol

Coincidentally they have a bigger range game than Helena. "Proper" spacing is especially easy for Ayane. Since she can position herself in backflip immediately after attacks now. Back dash with built in guard break options to keep pressure, etc. . .
I wouldn't say Brad has a bigger spacing game, he only has a few ranged tools. Ayane does but that is her game.

Guide listing a characters top moves. All of Helena's are unsafe, big time.
Thanks for clearing that one up, I haven't read the guide.

Which got a major nerf there too since it lost the ability to beat all mids. Mids that go downward at all beat BKO duck.
It is still very effective even with the nerf.

Yes it matters a lot because a smart opponent knows that almost every single attack she has in throw punishable. She excels at nothing, she isn't as good as Ayane at anything. Helena is parlor tricks, you probably think she's better than she is because people are letting you get away with murder online. I know I do.
I don't think she is better than Ayane, I do think that Helena has access to things that set her apart from other characters and I wouldn't trade Helena's BKO duck for any of Ayane's spinning garbage. Everything becomes a parlour trick once you know the character well enough.

She gets +7, while decent, it's her only safe move outside of 6kp, lol.
I do agree with you that she could use a couple of decent guard crushes but I'm okay without it.

She's thankfully getting buffed, so hopefully these buffs add to her game plan. Frame advantage would be so integral to her stance game and make her an actual threat with a solid game plan going into matches.
I don't think it's fair for the opponent to block god knows how many attacks only to be left at negative fames. I doubt any character will get a major overhaul in the patch, minor tweaks are more like it. I really do agree with you on a lot of things, she is way too unsafe and her damage output is slightly lacking. I'll tell you what I want:

• BKO 4PKP / 6KP Last punch should guard crush.
• Return all DOA4 safe moves.
• 3in1 attacks that lead into BKO (0 to -2) on block.
• Slight damage buff.
• 8PP2P Final low punch should stun.

I think this would be enough, I just feel frame advantage on BKO transitions would make them way to good.

 

[DR2K]

I wouldn't say Brad has a bigger spacing game, he only has a few ranged tools. Ayane does but that is her game.

Ayane is a pressure character as well.

It is still very effective even with the nerf.

In a twist of fate Brad wongs laying stances are more easive than before. I wouldn't say it's very effective against an opponent that knows how to beat it.

Everything becomes a parlour trick once you know the character well enough.

How are you going to put yourself at advantage when you're at disadvantage? How you are going going to punish safe moves? You won't. Knowing how to fight a character won't reduce them to parlor tricks if they have substancial tools. It just means you're well prepared with match up knowledge. With Helena you don't have to learn the safety or advantage on her strings, she doesn't have any, lol. You won't have to go into training mode to find out the property of her moves, they're mostly unsafe mid punches.

Even if Helena's at -2 at bokuho she'll still get beaten out by most of the cast, we went over how it would suck even at 0. I don't see how frame advantage would make her too good. I feel it would be a fair trade off for all the nerfs and odd design choises for this iteration of her.

 

[TRI Mike]

Ayane has a string that makes her go to BT at +7.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Coincidentally they have a bigger range game than Helena. "Proper" spacing is especially easy for Ayane. Since she can position herself in backflip immediately after attacks now. Back dash with built in guard break options to keep pressure, etc. . .



Guide listing a characters top moves. All of Helena's are unsafe, big time.



Which got a major nerf there too since it lost the ability to beat all mids. Mids that go downward at all beat BKO duck.



Yes it matters a lot because a smart opponent knows that almost every single attack she has in throw punishable. She excels at nothing, she isn't as good as Ayane at anything. Helena is parlor tricks, you probably think she's better than she is because people are letting you get away with murder online. I know I do.




She gets +7, while decent, it's her only safe move outside of 6kp, lol.

She's thankfully getting buffed, so hopefully these buffs add to her game plan. Frame advantage would be so integral to her stance game and make her an actual threat with a solid game plan going into matches.

Where did you read she's getting buffed? And when and whats gonna change?

 

[DR2K]

Where did you read she's getting buffed? And when and whats gonna change?

Shimbori confirmed it at seasons beatings. Don't know what they'll do.

 

[Doug Nguyen]

Shimbori confirmed it at seasons beatings. Don't know what they'll do.

Oh nice. I think Helena is still great but who doesnt like a buff for there character.

 

[Sora]

Ayane has a string that makes her go to BT at +7.

This move, single-handedly, proves that + in stance can make a character feared.

 

[Dr_Tom]

Where did you read she's getting buffed? And when and whats gonna change?

Shimbori confirmed it at seasons beatings. Don't know what they'll do.

He didn't confirm anything beyond that Team Ninja "will look into" buffing Helena. Nothing concrete on if they will or won't.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Ayane has a string that makes her go to BT at +7.

This move, single-handedly, proves that + in stance can make a character feared.

This was unintentional and has been recognised as being too strong, so it's being removed.

 

[TRI Mike]

I don't think it will be. It'd be retarded for them to do so.

Stop being in denial people. Helena isn't the worst character in the game only because Alpha-152 is there. She can definitely win and when playing against online people she seems OP but against anyone who even remotely knows about the game, it's an uphill battle. Helena wasn't well designed in DOA5.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

The move has guard crushing frame advantage without guard crushing, of course they are going to fix it.

Yep Helena is terrible, she has nothing good going for her and every other character except 152 is better than her. The only way she can do well is against scrubs or relying on online tactics. Thank god the netcode is crap, we can continue to win for now.

 

[TRI Mike]

Well, after playing with her these days here's my 2 cents:

1) : Still crushes most shit and grants her an easy launcher. Makes it easy to juggle with 66KPP against light-weights.

2) : Looks like it guarantees 6PP from bokuho so it opens up a good window of cool possibilities for her.

3) Bokuho : Her best throw, able to deal good damage in open space with 4PPK(f)9K as a juggle.

4) : Very fast string that seems to be able to interrupt a lot of stuff from most of the cast.

5) BT : Her best juggle when you launch an opponent in Back stance.

6) Bokuho : Still goes under most mids. It's slower than in DOA4 but still useful against many characters, especially rushdowns like Kasumi, Christie, etc.

7) Bokuho : The first punch in this string is her fastest move in Bokuho and is VERY useful to interrupt people after a successful Bokuho duck.

8) : Fast string grants sit-down stun, but should not be abused because it's easily holdable.

9) SS: Easy way to use Bokuho sweep from Normal Stance and it's very useful as a sidestep move.

10) BT : Fast mid-kick launcher from Back stance that leaves her in that position for easy juggling. From my experience people seem to fall for it a lot.

 

[DR2K]

I don't think Helena is terrible, just not good and has nothing going for her. She can still win, because the stun system and guessing, but I have a feeling the more advanced people get at DOA5 the more characters like her will suffer.