Momiji General Discussion

[Force_of_Nature]

for you maybe its a good change but not for me i dont play her as a zoning whiff punish character like you so for me the change on 1pp and 6k variants are just awfull she lost her mid k option to go into her tenku + the mind game behind now to go into the stance you have a to use a mid p i rather have the ability to go into the tenku and the great stun on 6k instead of the crappy launch of 6k and the 50+ dmg dmgs same goes for 1pp i rather have a good stun instead + the mind behind instead of having to guess a random oki only good thing on 1pp now is the wall slpat

Sounds like you were playing Momiji as a rushdown character before. IMHO, Momiji won't get that far against more competent opponents with a rushdown style unless you're abusing an opponent's ignorance of her frames or strings. Momiji's strengths beg you to work her strong neutral game at all ranges along with her awesome whiff punish ability. 6PK & 6K can still be useful in stun, but yeah, you'll have to adjust to using the full string now. If you want, you can still use 66K as your "mid K" launcher for decent juggles. It's only 2 frames slower than 6K and does more damage. I'd argue that Momiji probably has a bigger mind game now since she can now whittle down an opponents life bar with quick 6K/6PK launches, reducing the opponents opportunities to launch a counter attack against you.

But yeah, this is also coming from someone that liked doing 6K~6K launches so I understand what you mean lol.

 

[Ivan]

There was no mind game behind 6PK in threshold. You keep saying you preferred a mind game behind it when there isn't one. You either mashed or you didn't, because thats what it was, a mashy string. A mix up and a mind game are two completely different things, so lets not confuse them.

My play style has nothing to do with anything. This is how the characters tools are, thats literally what they're doing. You need to learn to adjust so you can start getting the most out of your character tools. Or just continue playing the character inefficiently.

Up to you.

And for the record, I don't play Momiji as a "zoning whiff punish" character, lol. My play style is literally playing a strong neutral game with a bait and punish intent. I play to this character's strengths.

sorry but i play her since doa5u and so far i did great with my playstyle offiline and i dont mash with her/play her inefficiently i know how to play her
so please dont insult
you have your playstyle i have mine that all
you like the change of 6k variants and 1pp i dont(and many other good Momiji players i know dont like those change aswell) and i hope that in the next patch they will give her back her old 6k stun and variants same for 1pp im not going argue with you, i will just wait for the next patch

 

[SilverForte]

He wasn't insulting you, if you want to play your way all the power to you, just don't hold your breath for a non-existant redo. Either adapt to the changes or deal with it.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

you like the change of 6k variants and 1pp i dont(and many other good Momiji players i know dont like those change aswell)

Not my problem, like Forte and I already said;

You need to learn to adjust so you can start getting the most out of your character tools. Or just continue playing the character inefficiently.

Up to you.

Either adapt to the changes or deal with it.

And I've been playing Momiji in DOA5U too, lol. Saying that has no relevance to the character changes.

 

[KING JAIMY]

Force tech setups using 1PP:

1PP knockdown leads to a no-timing 1_PK force tech if they miss the tech for +17 frame advantage. You can also do a dash and do 6H+K to get them back up for +19 frame advantage, but this requires some timing.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I've always just done a dash up 2H+K after my knockdowns.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I'm thinking about doing a short stream to explain Momiji's changes, and how they're actually making this character better and not worse.

Thinking about doing it Saturday or Sunday. I'll update later today or tomorrow about a time and date.

 

[DoANoob]

The v 1.04 update is finally on my 360 so I'm gonna check it out. Wish I could've done a "before & after" video about Momiji. Aww well

 

[Tenro]

hi guys, i m new to the doa community and was hoping that somebody would help me understand the changes momiji has went through in the recent update as i m having a little trouble getting used to it . since the 6pk and the like moves have changed properties i feel that her stun mix up options are slightly "restricted" in filling up the threshold . any advise would be highly appreciated and i apologise if i have posted this wrong .

 

[iHajinShinobi]

@DoANoob @Tenro

I am going to cover this in great detail on Sunday; information about the stream, time&date are here;

http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/momiji-1-04-stream-update.5914/

But for now, I've mentioned a few things before;

4P is not a sit down stun, it is a gut stun (opponent leans foward falling to the ground. Think Ayane's BT4H+K but on counter . Not in critical stun threshold.

6K and string variants only give a level 1 launch height on counter, hi counter and critical stun threshold. This means you have to follow up with the rest of the string to get your damage. You cannot do 6K, free cancel, then proceed with 6PKKK or 6PKKP on an even ground terrain. Only if the ground terrain slopes downward. So if you launch with any 6K variants, remember to finish the string up. Damage will normally weigh around 40-60+ on average.

For generic string launching into a completed string, that is very VERY good. Opponents are now forced to guess hold "a lot" when they get stunned now. That damage will add up. This really does boost Momiji's mix up game now.

This also means Momiji has become very stupid on Dangerzone.

BT4P is indeed a sit down similar to Ayane's 4K. +26 stun, +18 at fastest stagger escape. Only in Critical Stun Threshold, counter and hi counter hit. Lots and lots of mix up potential. 44K's mix up has gotten a strong 50/50 between faint stun (BT P, i12 high) and sit down stun (BT4P, i13 mid). Don't really need to say what else you can do there, that is self-explanatory.

1PP being a knockdown on hit now is amazing. Offensive momentum and oki opportunies have risen up from this change, I love it. The mid P in 1PP also added a fire effect to Momiji's hand as well, pretty neat. 1PP also will wall slam opponents if they're near the wall, which is great.

These are the more significant changes for Momiji by far, and they're really going to shape up her play ability, for the better.

The change to 6K and variants make Momiji's damage more consistent.

Opponents have to hold in this situation every single time now or they eat the string launch damage. This damage can happen practically any time you hit someone now. That makes all 6K variants more dangerous and the situation stays in Momiji's favor. That also means Momiji's ability to push the opponent to a wall has further increased with an almost insta-access to 6PKKK, which is where her damage racks up even more (including all environmental stage hazards).

1PP compliments this for the same reason, and also by being a wall slam now. The knock down from 1PP boasts the string's usage to "almost" that of Ayane's 6PK (and this is a pretty powerful short string for a ton of reasons). This new knock down also makes 1P itself an even better option during the neutral game at range, as a poke, counter poke, and a way to control space with the threat of a low for frame advantage. Or a mid for a knock down for a chance to go on the offensive.

The fact that 6K is a string launcher/combo now actually furthers the mind game and mix up;

1PP also added a fire effect to Momiji's hand as well, pretty neat. 1PP also will wall slam opponents if they're near the wall, which is great.

These are the more significant changes for Momiji by far, and they're really going to shape up her play ability, for the better.[/QUOTE]

 

[Tenro]

thanks to hajinshinobi in advance for the upcoming stream . so u r basically saying that 6pkkk string is more defence oriented move now as if you are desperately need of a breathing room it's very viable option and of course will have environmental use as well . about that 6k , i was just messing around with her and used kp, 6h+k, 3p , 6k /66k . i was able to follow up with complete 6pkkp on ayane and hayate . this combo was on CH and was tested online so i don't know if it's really actually usable . u guys can try and tell me if it actually works .

 

[coffeedad]

I have to say that I never really used 6k 0_o! Not to the degree that I'm sad about it being changed anyway. I guess I was missin' out!

 

[Omegax]

I know people are going to say something, but this is just my personal opinion, I don't think my wishes are absolutely needed for the fact that if you really can play momiji and be a little patient, you can absolutely win just about any fight. However, I believe that since Momij has trained under hayabusa she should be able to have one izuna as a raw grab and one from a hold(preferably a adv. mid hold). As well as at least 1 or 2 strings that include a low in them, her tenku T hit the ceiling, and have more advanced holds, that complement her fight style since it resembles that of ikido ( using your opponents force against them).
These are all highlights from a letter that wrote about improving D.O.A 6. Granted this is not all I wrote I elaborated on system,training,character balances(with the characters I currently can play about 14.and 6 of those at a high level) and much more. This is just for Momiji because she is my main. I would be more than happy to explain why I came up with my conclusion if anyone ask, just be prepared for a very long post.

 

[KING JAIMY]

I know people are going to say something, but this is just my personal opinion, I don't think my wishes are absolutely needed for the fact that if you really can play momiji and be a little patient, you can absolutely win just about any fight. However, I believe that since Momij has trained under hayabusa she should be able to have one izuna as a raw grab and one from a hold(preferably a adv. mid hold). As well as at least 1 or 2 strings that include a low in them, her tenku T hit the ceiling, and have more advanced holds, that complement her fight style since it resembles that of ikido ( using your opponents force against them).
These are all highlights from a letter that wrote about improving D.O.A 6. Granted this is not all I wrote I elaborated on system,training,character balances(with the characters I currently can play about 14.and 6 of those at a high level) and much more. This is just for Momiji because she is my main. I would be more than happy to explain why I came up with my conclusion if anyone ask, just be prepared for a very long post.

Your ideas are neat, but I'm wondering how your suggestions would help the character balancing. These would be huge buffs and it might make Momiji too good to be honest. Here are my opinions on the points you've made:

- Giving Momiji an Izuna means she would get another i12 throw. Why would she need that when she already has a very powerful 41236T? Even if they gave her an Izuna it would probably have a damage output of 120 making her current 41236T completely redundant. I would like to hear your opinion on this matter.

- Her lows are actually really good. Her 2P is i12 and +0 on Normal Hit and is among the best low jabs in the game. Her 2H+K has insane reach and isn't punishable at tip range. 1P has tracking and delayable follow-ups (including a low). Her lows are good, so why would you like to see other strings with lows in them? And do you actually have examples in mind of strings which could have a low in them?

- A ceiling hit property of Tenku T is an idea I really like. How much frame advantage would you give Momiji after her opponent lands on the ground?

- Regarding her expert holds, I don't think she needs more of them. She already has 64H and she doesn't need any more holds in my opinion, since they are already pretty solid. I don't see TN giving her Izuna Drops, even though she is able to do them thanks to her training with Hayabusa.

 

[Omegax]

If I were re developing momiji with the changes I thought of I would do this.

Izuna from a raw and hold-

Momiji is definitely and now more so a stun launch character, with the properties that the Izuna hayabusa has with the punishing of holds he can most definitely get the Izuna or juggle. Momiji being able to extent her combos using her uzakaze stance variants would be able to have a another tool from neutral to get her offensive game started. It would make other players respect her up close and not try to rush her down. I see this in a lot of people who fight Momiji they rush her down and Momiji is left to stay on block to wait to get the back to mid range for her to be come back on the offensive(effectively). I would however not give her the same damage output as hayabusa, he has had years to master that craft, Momiji only made her own variant. I would mak the grab these inputs and stats.
Raw Izuna- 63214T~82T or 63214T~41236
Frame 15(2)18 Dmg-99 NC-115 HC-135
Same input for the hold variant( maybe a adv. highP or change the adv.MidP)
Frame 18(1)31


Low-string variants-

anyone that plays Momiji or fight against her has a 66% chance of holding any of her strings and moves because most of them are Highs and Mids. Her lows are great! I personally use her 2H+K and 2K a lot. Up close I would like to have the option to get advantage on my opponent when they block my obvious PPP or PPK. Her tenku hop on block is terrible because she is not actually at the advantage the training screen shows but only her follow ups. I am well aware that you can always free cancel but who is to say your opponent won't strike punish you and put you into a mix-up when you tried to go for say 2H+K or 1P and they punish you with a mid because you are -8. With the incorporation of a low it will allow the pressure to stay on the opponent while Momiji is close. I think 1 or 2 Punch and or kick string based lows is appropriate something along the lines of say
PPP2K or K2H+K
Frames for 1st string- 10(1)12-6(1)16-16(1)22-15(2)24
Frames for 2nd- 12(2)15-22(3)28

Tenku T ceiling hit-

this is and if anything,the move I think she should have. All the ninjas have a ceiling hit move that allows for a launch combo and or power blow set up, which Momiji lacks except, for her ceiling Izuna. First, Momiji thrust her opponents into the air just one character space shy of a power launcher, with this being said she should well be able to use all of her strength to hit an opponent on the ceiling, this addition would play an essential role in her ceiling game in conjunction with her Izuna, while also giving her the option to do a launch -juggle.

I am not sure of the frames on this one


Also she should be able to do her Izuna variant off cliffs like hayabusa, like he does on lost world or any other place that has cliffs. Momiji does this on danger zone In scrabble, is it so far fetched to have it off cliffs as well, Momiji and hayabusa's izunas are relatively the same thing just different animations.
I am in no way shape or form the best Momiji player but I have been playing her since doa5u and these are things I personally think would give her the tools to combat someone like Helena, Rachel, Ayane or Christie. She can hold her own don't get me wrong I have done it plenty of times it is just I feel she needs something to boost her up. She is just a great underrated character.
"Better luck next time, huh" -Momiji

 

[Xernuht]

If I were re developing momiji with the changes I thought of I would do this.

Izuna from a raw and hold-

Momiji is definitely and now more so a stun launch character, with the properties that the Izuna hayabusa has with the punishing of holds he can most definitely get the Izuna or juggle. Momiji being able to extent her combos using her uzakaze stance variants would be able to have a another tool from neutral to get her offensive game started. It would make other players respect her up close and not try to rush her down. I see this in a lot of people who fight Momiji they rush her down and Momiji is left to stay on block to wait to get the back to mid range for her to be come back on the offensive(effectively). I would however not give her the same damage output as hayabusa, he has had years to master that craft, Momiji only made her own variant. I would mak the grab these inputs and stats.
Raw Izuna- 63214T~82T or 63214T~41236
Frame 15(2)18 Dmg-99 NC-115 HC-135
Same input for the hold variant( maybe a adv. highP or change the adv.MidP)
Frame 18(1)31

Yeah, not happening. If you were going to incorporate her Izuna as a 2-stage throw with damage that rivals BURST, you'd break the character.

I would say reduce the damage to ~70-75 NH. Add in potential ceiling/floor/Lost World damage boosts.

I wouldn't give her an Izuna hold, though.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I know people are going to say something, but this is just my personal opinion, I don't think my wishes are absolutely needed for the fact that if you really can play momiji and be a little patient, you can absolutely win just about any fight. However, I believe that since Momij has trained under hayabusa she should be able to have one izuna as a raw grab and one from a hold(preferably a adv. mid hold). As well as at least 1 or 2 strings that include a low in them, her tenku T hit the ceiling, and have more advanced holds, that complement her fight style since it resembles that of ikido ( using your opponents force against them).
These are all highlights from a letter that wrote about improving D.O.A 6. Granted this is not all I wrote I elaborated on system,training,character balances(with the characters I currently can play about 14.and 6 of those at a high level) and much more. This is just for Momiji because she is my main. I would be more than happy to explain why I came up with my conclusion if anyone ask, just be prepared for a very long post.

Hmm... This sounds more like you just want Momiji to be easier to win with. As of right now, Momiji's balance is fine, certain little things could be tweaked but, I'd say she's a solid arguable Top 10 character in DOA5LR. The ceiling Tenku throw would be neat, though not necessary. Like KING JAIMY pointed out, Momiji's lows, though low in number, are utterly fantastic. 2P, 1P~, 2H+K & 2K are all great and all Momiji needs. I annoy the shit out of people with 2P & 2H+K so much lol. Having more expert holds is unnecessary since Momiji's strike speeds are pretty fast anyway.

How is an i10/i12/i12 character getting "rushed downed" so easily anyway? Sounds like you need to work on your spacing and keepout ability. I'll give a small hint: Momiji's i12 moves are amazing, and she has quite a bit of them.

 

[Omegax]

Hmm... This sounds more like you just want Momiji to be easier to win with. As of right now, Momiji's balance is fine, certain little things could be tweaked but, I'd say she's a solid arguable Top 10 character in DOA5LR. The ceiling Tenku throw would be neat, though not necessary. Like KING JAIMY pointed out, Momiji's lows, though low in number, are utterly fantastic. 2P, 1P~, 2H+K & 2K are all great and all Momiji needs. I annoy the shit out of people with 2P & 2H+K so much lol. Having more expert holds is unnecessary since Momiji's strike speeds are pretty fast anyway.

How is an i10/i12/i12 character getting "rushed downed" so easily anyway? Sounds like you need to work on your spacing and keepout ability. I'll give a small hint: Momiji's i12 moves are amazing, and she has quite a bit of them.

I see what you mean, I personally don't have a problem with spacing (I love her H+K and 44K) I would like to see these changes, but not let her be to over powering, just making her as versatile as hayabusa but keeping her uniqueness if that makes since.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I see what you mean, I personally don't have a problem with spacing (I love her H+K and 44K) I would like to see these changes, but not let her be to over powering, just making her as versatile as hayabusa but keeping her uniqueness if that makes since.

Hayabusa isn't really better than Momiji, or only by a very little overall. Thing is Hayabusa is miles more difficult to use than Momiji in terms of gameplay. Hayabusa's throws and holds are deservedly much stronger because that suits his gameplay as the "ninja grappler". On the other hand Momiji's neutral game is miles better than Hayabusa's. Much easier for Momiji to get her offense started than Busa. H+K & 44K are indeed great. In terms of additions, I wouldn't mind Tenku T ceiling hitting and an Advanced Mid K hold would be nice (though her default Mid K hold does decent damage on light & middleweights anyway). If anything her Expert Mid P Hold should deal a little more damage.

 

[Omegax]

Hayabusa isn't really better than Momiji, or only by a very little overall. Thing is Hayabusa is miles more difficult to use than Momiji in terms of gameplay. Hayabusa's throws and holds are deservedly much stronger because that suits his gameplay as the "ninja grappler". On the other hand Momiji's neutral game is miles better than Hayabusa's. Much easier for Momiji to get her offense started than Busa. H+K & 44K are indeed great. In terms of additions, I wouldn't mind Tenku T ceiling hitting and an Advanced Mid K hold would be nice (though her default Mid K hold does decent damage on light & middleweights anyway). If anything her Expert Mid P Hold should deal a little more damage.

Your right, I never look at it like that by comparison. It just would have been nice to see her be able to have another Izuna.