Ceiling Izuna drop
I.e. 236P+KPP82T under a ceiling for additional damage
I.e. 236P+KPP82T under a ceiling for additional damage
Momiji General Discussion
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6PK is actually a good block string for the delay between 6P and 6PK. I hit everyone with this move and now this has to be respect further since the 6K launches on counter hit. This also means that 6PK is better against side step and moves with side step evasion like JAK from Christie.
6PK is already great in stun for it's must-hold 50/50s it gave. I'm also certain that 4P will guarantee all of her i12 mids. And 7K afterward gives me my okizeme situation.
Tempest
Well-Known Member
Momiji's 6P does not have long delay like other characters. She has about 10 frames she can delay it by, whereas Leifang and Kokoro for example can go up to 20. Best case scenario, you're -2 if your opponent waits out the delay frames. A patient player has nothing to worry about in that situation. I'm not knocking the caliber of the players you've caught with that, but in an offline situation, there's no threat coming from that string on block.
Yes there is plenty of threat coming from 6PK on block because 6P has a follow up you have to wait on/respect. I'm not talking about online play, lol. In my case, I am never talking about online play. I am always referring to offline play. Every single player I have ever played against offline has been smacked by 6PK counter hit on multple occasions.
I've told you this before already, you are playing the game by paper too often. That's not going to get you very far.
10 frames of delay is a lot of delay time, anything beyond 10 frames of delay is just very extensive.
Tempest
Well-Known Member
Momiji's 6P is essentially Hayate's, except unlike him, she does not have a semi-safe option from this string to compensate for it's lack of delay. She either goes for a very easily read free cancel, uses her unsafe P followup, or goes for 6PK which you frequently point out is very bad on block for a multitude of reasons. If people are getting hit by 6PK that means they are trying to read a free cancel attack and hitting hit counter for it. I don't understand how you can call this situation threatening compared to what other characters are capable of.
I call it threatening because "I" understand how to make it threatening.
6P doesn't do much on its own, neither does 6PK. Conditioning with both is what makes the 6PK good. Now 6PK by itself is bad. Delaying and free cancelling 6PK is the mix up, and a way to condition someone to do something. Like most 6P/6K mids with a follow up can do. Otherwise you never have a reason to respect the 6P in the first place, since it would be a free throw.
You don't need to understand why I call something a threat, because you're not me. Just like how you didn't understand utilizing the 7P in footsies is actual pressure until you played me. The fact that 6PK will launch now on counter hit makes 6K and it's variations that much more scary than it already is. What you think and see is fine, what I think and see is fine, and completely different than most playing the game. Even others at a high level do not see what I see while playing.
6P doesn't do much on its own, neither does 6PK. Conditioning with both is what makes the 6PK good. Now 6PK by itself is bad. Delaying and free cancelling 6PK is the mix up, and a way to condition someone to do something. Like most 6P/6K mids with a follow up can do. Otherwise you never have a reason to respect the 6P in the first place, since it would be a free throw.
You don't need to understand why I call something a threat, because you're not me. Just like how you didn't understand utilizing the 7P in footsies is actual pressure until you played me. The fact that 6PK will launch now on counter hit makes 6K and it's variations that much more scary than it already is. What you think and see is fine, what I think and see is fine, and completely different than most playing the game. Even others at a high level do not see what I see while playing.
Got the 1.04 title update, will update with in-depth findings a bit later.
But for now;
4P is not a sit down stun, it is a gut stun (opponent leans foward falling to the ground. Think Ayane's BT4H+K) on counter and hi counter. Not in critical stun threshold.
6K and string variants only give a level 1 launch height on counter, hi counter and critical stun threshold. This means you have to follow up with the rest of the string to get your damage. You cannot do 6K, free cancel, then proceed with 6PKKK or 6PKKP on an even ground terrain. Only if the ground terrain slopes downward. So if you launch with any 6K variants, remember to finish the string up. Damage will normally weight around 40-60+ on average.
For generic string launching into a completed string, that is very VERY good. Opponents are now forced to guess hold "a lot" when they get stunned now. That damage will add up. This really does boost Momiji's mix up game now.
This also means Momiji has become very stupid on Dangerzone.
BT4P is indeed a sit down similar to Ayane's 4K. +26 stun, +18 at fastest stagger escape. Only in Critical Stun Threshold, counter and hi counter hit. Lots and lots of mix up potential. 44K's mix up has gotten a strong 50/50 between faint stun (BT P, i12 high) and sit down stun (BT4P, i13 mid). Don't really need to say what else you can do there, that is self-explanatory.
1PP being a knockdown on hit now is amazing. Offensive momentum and oki opportunies have risen up from this change, I love it. The mid P in 1PP also added a fire effect to Momiji's hand as well, pretty neat. 1PP also will wall slam opponents if they're near the wall, which is great.
These are the more significant changes for Momiji by far, and they're really going to shape up her play ability, for the better.
But for now;
4P is not a sit down stun, it is a gut stun (opponent leans foward falling to the ground. Think Ayane's BT4H+K) on counter and hi counter. Not in critical stun threshold.
6K and string variants only give a level 1 launch height on counter, hi counter and critical stun threshold. This means you have to follow up with the rest of the string to get your damage. You cannot do 6K, free cancel, then proceed with 6PKKK or 6PKKP on an even ground terrain. Only if the ground terrain slopes downward. So if you launch with any 6K variants, remember to finish the string up. Damage will normally weight around 40-60+ on average.
For generic string launching into a completed string, that is very VERY good. Opponents are now forced to guess hold "a lot" when they get stunned now. That damage will add up. This really does boost Momiji's mix up game now.
This also means Momiji has become very stupid on Dangerzone.
BT4P is indeed a sit down similar to Ayane's 4K. +26 stun, +18 at fastest stagger escape. Only in Critical Stun Threshold, counter and hi counter hit. Lots and lots of mix up potential. 44K's mix up has gotten a strong 50/50 between faint stun (BT P, i12 high) and sit down stun (BT4P, i13 mid). Don't really need to say what else you can do there, that is self-explanatory.
1PP being a knockdown on hit now is amazing. Offensive momentum and oki opportunies have risen up from this change, I love it. The mid P in 1PP also added a fire effect to Momiji's hand as well, pretty neat. 1PP also will wall slam opponents if they're near the wall, which is great.
These are the more significant changes for Momiji by far, and they're really going to shape up her play ability, for the better.
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Tempest
Well-Known Member
the new fire effect on her 1PP is pretty cool
4P on counter hit being a gut stun is pretty good, I think it actually ties in with the 6P change quite well. 4P into 6P gives them a two way guess between getting launched and being put right in critical burst threshold with no way to stagger out. 4P, 6PK will give you less damage than if you launched with say, 8k, but it's still a good mix-up to have around.
4P on counter hit being a gut stun is pretty good, I think it actually ties in with the 6P change quite well. 4P into 6P gives them a two way guess between getting launched and being put right in critical burst threshold with no way to stagger out. 4P, 6PK will give you less damage than if you launched with say, 8k, but it's still a good mix-up to have around.
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Lol this BT 4p change is silly, loving it. Unless they stagger at fastest its a perfect setup for CB.
Awesome changes all around, except for the 6k change which i'm kinda iffy about, ah well well see how it plays out.
Plus more flame effects are always a good thing.
Awesome changes all around, except for the 6k change which i'm kinda iffy about, ah well well see how it plays out.
Plus more flame effects are always a good thing.
Aww... I knew it was too good to be true for 4P to be a SDS lol 
. Doesn't really seem necessary to make it -9 however. -7 should be the most negative for a move like that.
BT4P on the otherhand... Thanks TN, you've just made Momiji's BT'ed game a monster now. Not that it was exactly bad to begin with, but that's a pretty damn good stun for an i13 BT'ed mid. Grants even more advantage than 6H+K's stun, though it technically works on NH to unlike BT4P's.
I'm a little indifferent to 1PP's change in open space, since I happened to like its application in the stun threshold, but the oki opportunity is nice. However, it is pretty sweet at a wall. Always love having wall slam moves or launchers off of lows, which is made even better with Momiji's great i12 wall slamming moves. And yeah, can't go wrong with more flames lol.
I'm a little iffy on the 6K change since I liked doing 6K~6K launches, but can't really complain about now doing 6K~6KKP or 6K~6PKKP. Even if the damage is modest, the changes seem to revolve around giving the opponent less opportunities for buttons against Momiji. I sense more Momiji salt in the future...
. Doesn't really seem necessary to make it -9 however. -7 should be the most negative for a move like that.BT4P on the otherhand... Thanks TN, you've just made Momiji's BT'ed game a monster now
. Not that it was exactly bad to begin with, but that's a pretty damn good stun for an i13 BT'ed mid. Grants even more advantage than 6H+K's stun, though it technically works on NH to unlike BT4P's.I'm a little indifferent to 1PP's change in open space, since I happened to like its application in the stun threshold, but the oki opportunity is nice. However, it is pretty sweet at a wall. Always love having wall slam moves or launchers off of lows, which is made even better with Momiji's great i12 wall slamming moves. And yeah, can't go wrong with more flames lol.
I'm a little iffy on the 6K change since I liked doing 6K~6K launches, but can't really complain about now doing 6K~6KKP or 6K~6PKKP. Even if the damage is modest, the changes seem to revolve around giving the opponent less opportunities for buttons against Momiji. I sense more Momiji salt in the future...
Playing today I've come to realize some things;
6P counter hit on whiff punish into 6PK is great. You get a full 57-60+ on whiff punishment (or just a good counter hit) now. That really forces a split-second decision in a must-hold 50/50 situation. 6P free cancel, 6PP, 6PK.
1PP is absolutely amazing on counter hit on slippery surfaces. 1P always guaranteed it's follow ups in this situation, but now with 1PP's new knockdown, you get oki and offense.
44K > BT4P/BTP, all you can do is guess now lol. Trying to low hold out of stun gets you smacked by BT4P, win win.
PP8 is seriously complimenting PPK and PPP so much now because of 6K (variants). I'm really REALLY loving these ideas of forceful 50/50s I'm getting with this character, as much as I have with Ayane (not to the same extent but it's so good to know Momiji is capable of it).
What I primarily need to do now is adjust to the 6K change some more, been so used to mixing up off 6K's lift stun.
6P counter hit on whiff punish into 6PK is great. You get a full 57-60+ on whiff punishment (or just a good counter hit) now. That really forces a split-second decision in a must-hold 50/50 situation. 6P free cancel, 6PP, 6PK.
1PP is absolutely amazing on counter hit on slippery surfaces. 1P always guaranteed it's follow ups in this situation, but now with 1PP's new knockdown, you get oki and offense.
44K > BT4P/BTP, all you can do is guess now lol. Trying to low hold out of stun gets you smacked by BT4P, win win.
PP8 is seriously complimenting PPK and PPP so much now because of 6K (variants). I'm really REALLY loving these ideas of forceful 50/50s I'm getting with this character, as much as I have with Ayane (not to the same extent but it's so good to know Momiji is capable of it).
What I primarily need to do now is adjust to the 6K change some more, been so used to mixing up off 6K's lift stun.
3P4PP also has the flame effect after the last strike. Wish the last hit of the string didn't have so much darn recovery though, but it's no biggie. I wonder how many more flame effects TN gave Momiji? Would be cool if the last hit of 236P+KPPP had a flame effect too. Any added visual flair is always welcome.
BT4P also doesn't wall slam allowing you to get creative with the SDS if you so please.
BT4P also doesn't wall slam allowing you to get creative with the SDS if you so please.
I've gotten 44K > BT4P > 7K for a wall slam a few times today. 7K guaranteed there is pretty nasty, love it.
Ivan
Member
she got some nice buffs but the changes on 6k/6pk/pp6 are jsut awfull same for 1pp those change were not needed at all
the launcher on 6k/6pk/ppk suck you lose a great stun + the mind game with the stance for crappy dmgs
i hope that in the next patch they will give her back her old 1pp and 6k variants
the launcher on 6k/6pk/ppk suck you lose a great stun + the mind game with the stance for crappy dmgs
i hope that in the next patch they will give her back her old 1pp and 6k variants
The change to 6K and variants make Momiji's damage more consistent.
Opponents have to hold in this situation every single time now or they eat the string launch damage. This damage can happen practically any time you hit someone now. That makes all 6K variants more dangerous and the situation stays in Momiji's favor. That also means Momiji's ability to push the opponent to a wall has further increased with an almost insta-access to 6PKKK, which is where her damage racks up even more (including all environmental stage hazards).
1PP compliments this for the same reason, and also by being a wall slam now. The knock down from 1PP boasts the string's usage to "almost" that of Ayane's 6PK (and this is a pretty powerful short string for a ton of reasons). This new knock down also makes 1P itself an even better option during the neutral game at range, as a poke, counter poke, and a way to control space with the threat of a low for frame advantage. Or a mid for a knock down for a chance to go on the offensive.
The fact that 6K is a string launcher/combo now actually furthers the mind game and mix up;
You and everyone else (including me) need to learn to re-adjust to the change, because it's actually better. The other changes she received also compliment the 6K change.
To be blunt, Momiji is not the same extent of mash-friendly, you are required to make better assessment in your choice for pressure. Similar to other characters like Ayane, Hayate, Honoka and Kasumi.
Opponents have to hold in this situation every single time now or they eat the string launch damage. This damage can happen practically any time you hit someone now. That makes all 6K variants more dangerous and the situation stays in Momiji's favor. That also means Momiji's ability to push the opponent to a wall has further increased with an almost insta-access to 6PKKK, which is where her damage racks up even more (including all environmental stage hazards).
1PP compliments this for the same reason, and also by being a wall slam now. The knock down from 1PP boasts the string's usage to "almost" that of Ayane's 6PK (and this is a pretty powerful short string for a ton of reasons). This new knock down also makes 1P itself an even better option during the neutral game at range, as a poke, counter poke, and a way to control space with the threat of a low for frame advantage. Or a mid for a knock down for a chance to go on the offensive.
The fact that 6K is a string launcher/combo now actually furthers the mind game and mix up;
You and everyone else (including me) need to learn to re-adjust to the change, because it's actually better. The other changes she received also compliment the 6K change.
To be blunt, Momiji is not the same extent of mash-friendly, you are required to make better assessment in your choice for pressure. Similar to other characters like Ayane, Hayate, Honoka and Kasumi.
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SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Found some cool new synergy with 4kk and bt4p, hitting 44k raw and then 4p, 44p is guaranteed right afterwards letting you do jump mixups, ukukaze K leads right into tenku, probably due to the change of critical threshold, it doesnt knock them down, this forces a must guess situation as Tenku P will give ya 6pk at this point in the threshold. You could also go for ukukaze pk, leading to good damage.
Ivan
Member
for you maybe its a good change but not for me i dont play her as a zoning whiff punish character like you so for me the change on 1pp and 6k variants are just awfull she lost her mid k option to go into her tenku + the mind game behind now to go into the stance you have a to use a mid p i rather have the ability to go into the tenku and the great stun on 6k instead of the crappy launch of 6k and the 50+ dmg dmgs same goes for 1pp i rather have a good stun instead + the mind behind instead of having to guess a random oki only good thing on 1pp now is the wall slpat
There was no mind game behind 6PK in threshold. You keep saying you preferred a mind game behind it when there isn't one. You either mashed or you didn't, because thats what it was, a mashy string. A mix up and a mind game are two completely different things, so lets not confuse them.
My play style has nothing to do with anything. This is how the characters tools are, thats literally what they're doing. You need to learn to adjust so you can start getting the most out of your character tools. Or just continue playing the character inefficiently.
Up to you.
And for the record, I don't play Momiji as a "zoning whiff punish" character, lol. My play style is literally playing a strong neutral game with a bait and punish intent. I play to this character's strengths.
My play style has nothing to do with anything. This is how the characters tools are, thats literally what they're doing. You need to learn to adjust so you can start getting the most out of your character tools. Or just continue playing the character inefficiently.
Up to you.
And for the record, I don't play Momiji as a "zoning whiff punish" character, lol. My play style is literally playing a strong neutral game with a bait and punish intent. I play to this character's strengths.
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SilverForte
Well-Known Member
1pp stun before was rather crappy anyways, I'll take the knockdown, wall splat, and increased damage anyday.