"Pedestal Mentality": How it Hurts the FGC
- Thread starter Awesmic
- Start date
Yeah, I said the anime community is generally pretty sharing, but the Capcom community is pretty notorious for hiding tech. When I was playing AE, I had to ask Japanese players for setups and OSes. I'm not gonna name names, but I asked a few well known NA players and basically got told to just figure it out. I would play various games on netplay and the Japanese players would tell me (in broken English~) what I was doing wrong and how to fix it. NA players just have a mentality of "don't tell people how to play" which is just an excuse for STSFN. I don't care if you do that, but that's not how communities grow. If you ask people I play in locals, I'm constantly pointing out which one of my setups they can sidestep, throw, crouch, poke, etc. That's how a group of players can improve together.
Xhominid The Demon Within
Well-Known Member
That's why I'm killing the argument, I'm not gonna argue over something that doesn't even affect this community to begin with, let alone the chance to cause a split when it's not needed.
You're going to find out that this is a major problem, here even. Worse yet, you'll get this from people who generally have good intentions and are tryin to be helpful. I've done this with many other games and things. You're going to find out that we're all guilty of telling someone to figure something out on their own. You're right that this is a problem and is very much the most significant hinderence to community growth, but it's not an easy problem to solve: "figure it out yourself" is a simple and easy answer to a larger problem. The solution we have right now is manually training each and every person, which is inefficient and ultimately pushes people towards the "figure it out yourself" attitude. Certain things seem to be over addressed, over taught, etc. The reality is, right now they're only being taught the right way to the right people.
I'm going to make the offer again: If anyone is interested, I have an ideal solution to this problem. It will be tedious, it will probably be boring, but it will get the job done and hopefully remove the need for people to ask certain things, lowering the need for the "figure it out yourself" responses, also lowering the chances that such will happen and prevent community growth. The most encompassing and useful solution is the one that covers the most details, while the least useful solution is the one that covers the least details. The most paid to solution is the one that gets the quickest results.
And thus i'll say this publicly: we need videos that are even more in depth than Emperor Cow's videos. His videos are great for someone coming over from other fighting games. However, they're not in depth enough for someone coming from other types of video games, let alone for someone making this their first video game. The problem is, you need to get someone competent enough to fight the computer on very easy and actually win 1 out of 5 matches within the first two 10-minute videos, because that's the most people will be willing to invest to play a new video game (if it wins them games, they'll likely watch the rest to get even better since they get that buzz from a few victories). I have some really good ideas on how to accomplish this (i'm thinking of even modeling a real martial arts class since they're very effective at this), however i'm no where near the best myself, so i need support: especially the support of someone with a recording method.
d3v
Well-Known Member
I don't recall ever actually saying that this was right or wrong. I simply stated where all this was coming from from a historical perspective.
That said, the "this isn't real-life Sports" argument is starting to make less and less sense considering that the genre is e-Sports now and more and more money is coming in - meaning that there is some sense in STSFN.
Also, it's funny you mention Marvel 3 as that's one of the games (alongside SSFIV) where we do see blowouts from formerly supposed "low-tier" characters. Look at guys like Nemo or Angelic, guys who run teams that were originally seen as unorthodox before they brought them out (look at how Team Nemo is now seen as a top tier team). Heck, Morrigan wasn't seen as top tier (let alone god tier) until ChrisG started his streak.
IMO, the real problem as discussed in the TYM post isn't with the top players not sharing stuff. Rather, it's with folks who are putting those top players on a pedestal and generally being lazy and not stepping up. It used to be that if someone wanted to prove something, they'd step up and prove it in competition. Nowadays, we got players who seem to be afraid to make the step up and are seemingly content just following what everybody else does, or worse content not to try at all.
Going back to Marvel, the funny thing is that the UMvC3 board on SRK is one of the places you'll see this least. Folks over there will actually openly criticize and point out holes and flaws in top players teams/gameplay. Compared to other places and board other games, there's less (for lack of a better term) "dickriding" over there.
Pedestal mentality.......in "this" community, the DOA community, that kind of mentality exists "online" more than it actually does in our offline scene. Most of who are here at FreeStepDodge who consider themselves amazing players in this game (who only play online and DO NOT support our community in any way, shape, or form), are the very people who have a bigger ego. I can easily list about 40 players here who are online only and boast themselves, day in and day out, every single day.
Yet, these are the same people that whine about actual solid play and any form of fundamental play because someone can just as easily stop their ridiculous mashing and online tactics. Stupid.
Yet, these are the same people that whine about actual solid play and any form of fundamental play because someone can just as easily stop their ridiculous mashing and online tactics. Stupid.
Dude, just let it go. You have beat the dead horse about about online vs offline but now your just looking and acting like a child, especially since you are going ham on some people and not mentioning their names when everyone knows who you are talking about. Its fucking stupid. You either shake off on it and bury the hatchet with those said people or shut the fuck up. Choose wisely.
And before you come in on me with some bullshit about not "supporting the scene" I'll have you know that I actually went to Final Round and to get there I rode 8 hours in the back of a minivan sitting behind the whiniest bitch in my local scene who overestimates his importance(kinda like you do) and dealing with his fucked up voice and temperament, just to barley not get DQed in my pools.
I probably would not have beaten Mr.Kwiggle because he has more experience but I could have given him more of a fight had I been able to warm up and not had fucked up legs from the ride. And to add insult to injury I missed out with playing casuals with the DOA guys because that same whinny bitch fucked me over so I had to find his punk ass and resist not kicking the shit out of him for that entire weekend.
I show up to my local tournaments and play DOA and I try to get people to play this game but honestly they have this stigma about it being scrubby as shit even more so than VF. It does not matter how informed they are in regards to this game they see it as me wasting a setup.
Who are you to judge someone for not wanting to put up with that bullshit? I just take what I can get in regards to competition, whether it be online or offline. Online is a shit sandwich but its better than nothing.
And before you come in on me with some bullshit about not "supporting the scene" I'll have you know that I actually went to Final Round and to get there I rode 8 hours in the back of a minivan sitting behind the whiniest bitch in my local scene who overestimates his importance(kinda like you do) and dealing with his fucked up voice and temperament, just to barley not get DQed in my pools.
I probably would not have beaten Mr.Kwiggle because he has more experience but I could have given him more of a fight had I been able to warm up and not had fucked up legs from the ride. And to add insult to injury I missed out with playing casuals with the DOA guys because that same whinny bitch fucked me over so I had to find his punk ass and resist not kicking the shit out of him for that entire weekend.
I show up to my local tournaments and play DOA and I try to get people to play this game but honestly they have this stigma about it being scrubby as shit even more so than VF. It does not matter how informed they are in regards to this game they see it as me wasting a setup.
Who are you to judge someone for not wanting to put up with that bullshit? I just take what I can get in regards to competition, whether it be online or offline. Online is a shit sandwich but its better than nothing.
True words from Goarmagon. If something is stupid, it's the online / offline player bashing. I could also list some names from offline players that don't give a fuck about supporting the community and helping people to improve, so you better don't appoint this to a reason for pedestal mentality.
Eh, since we're going down this path, i want to throw in a few things too....
Mainly, I hear all the time about whiners online, but from them I only hear them complain about lag. When i do hear whining, it's usually people from here whining about online. I've kept quiet about it, but it's starting to sound to me like the people who are whining about it here are the ones who can't handle online. Sure, many of the people online don't have the same fundamental understanding of the game, but they're doing just fine without it, and i don't hear them whining when they're loosing. I don't know, maybe all the whiners are kids on xbox or something, because on PSN, the only people whining are the people here (and I include myself on that, because i whine that the game tries but fails horribly at being accessible to new players).
And I have gotten criticism here for not starting a community in this back woods farming region of Pennsylvania, where i'm lucky to find someone who plays something other than Call of Duty, let alone a fighting game, totally ignoring the idea of Dead or Alive. I've even tried to stir up interest here, but it is not happening. The best I could do is learn how to play better, then hopefully learn how to teach the game quickly (i doubt, at this point, this goal even can be accomplished), or there will never be any interest in this game.
And if anyone is elitist to the point they're destroying the community, it's the player bashing that we're seeing here. Even if you're trying to help, you're just turning people away from the game, because no one wants to play with an asshole.
Mainly, I hear all the time about whiners online, but from them I only hear them complain about lag. When i do hear whining, it's usually people from here whining about online. I've kept quiet about it, but it's starting to sound to me like the people who are whining about it here are the ones who can't handle online. Sure, many of the people online don't have the same fundamental understanding of the game, but they're doing just fine without it, and i don't hear them whining when they're loosing. I don't know, maybe all the whiners are kids on xbox or something, because on PSN, the only people whining are the people here (and I include myself on that, because i whine that the game tries but fails horribly at being accessible to new players).
And I have gotten criticism here for not starting a community in this back woods farming region of Pennsylvania, where i'm lucky to find someone who plays something other than Call of Duty, let alone a fighting game, totally ignoring the idea of Dead or Alive. I've even tried to stir up interest here, but it is not happening. The best I could do is learn how to play better, then hopefully learn how to teach the game quickly (i doubt, at this point, this goal even can be accomplished), or there will never be any interest in this game.
And if anyone is elitist to the point they're destroying the community, it's the player bashing that we're seeing here. Even if you're trying to help, you're just turning people away from the game, because no one wants to play with an asshole.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Not even an Online vs. Offline thing. Just ask yourself how many times you've gotten or seen hatemail (we have a wall of shame thread that indicates how scrubby some players can be and even FSD statuses reflect this) and compare it to the amount of times you had somebody rage quit and curse you out in locals. Dunno about you but the number is zero for the latter and I can't even keep count for the former. Players with huge ego's are protected online so naturally you would see more hatemail because making a scene like that in a local session just makes you look like a pathetic ass. Am I wrong?
So let's all stop trying to go back to this argument that seems to go on and on and on and is the toxic of our community. Like damn this is the only community this argument still goes on in and it's sad. So very sad.
Seriously it's starting to get aggravating seeing this from both sides. There are players with egos everywhere and feel like they are entitled to things. Those are the players that are the issue with this community. So many people feel like they deserve things and don't want to do anything to contribute to community growth. Posting on the forums, playing the game with others, introducing others to the game, donating to FSD, helping others learn etc etc all of that is a form of contribution and can be done whether you have access to a local scene or not. If you don't feel like doing this fine but don't get all heated when people start talking about who puts in extra time to do those things and who doesn't.
There are no "online" players or "offline" players. We are ALL DOA players. Push your egos to the side; Don't demand respect from people. Earn it with your actions and gameplay. Earn it by promoting the growth of your game. Don't sit there all for yourself like "Man I'm only here for the pot bonus." Or "Dude I'm a U rank you ain't got shit on me." THIS IS A COMMUNITY. It's about time everybody started behaving like it is.
This also is FREESTEPDODGE the competitive site for DOA and not the social media site FACEBOOK. Lately it's been becoming more difficult to distinguish the difference between the two because everybody wants to come and start some drama. Like shit I can name more people that start drama than people that assist in the forums. Come on guys most of us are grown ass men. We're here to chill out, discuss our game and have fun as a fighting game community should.
So let's all stop trying to go back to this argument that seems to go on and on and on and is the toxic of our community. Like damn this is the only community this argument still goes on in and it's sad. So very sad.
Seriously it's starting to get aggravating seeing this from both sides. There are players with egos everywhere and feel like they are entitled to things. Those are the players that are the issue with this community. So many people feel like they deserve things and don't want to do anything to contribute to community growth. Posting on the forums, playing the game with others, introducing others to the game, donating to FSD, helping others learn etc etc all of that is a form of contribution and can be done whether you have access to a local scene or not. If you don't feel like doing this fine but don't get all heated when people start talking about who puts in extra time to do those things and who doesn't.
There are no "online" players or "offline" players. We are ALL DOA players. Push your egos to the side; Don't demand respect from people. Earn it with your actions and gameplay. Earn it by promoting the growth of your game. Don't sit there all for yourself like "Man I'm only here for the pot bonus." Or "Dude I'm a U rank you ain't got shit on me." THIS IS A COMMUNITY. It's about time everybody started behaving like it is.
This also is FREESTEPDODGE the competitive site for DOA and not the social media site FACEBOOK. Lately it's been becoming more difficult to distinguish the difference between the two because everybody wants to come and start some drama. Like shit I can name more people that start drama than people that assist in the forums. Come on guys most of us are grown ass men. We're here to chill out, discuss our game and have fun as a fighting game community should.
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I do agree. To be honest, i think we could better spend our time talking about the real problem with the game. For most people today, even Smash Bros isn't accessible (you should've seen me trying to teach my girlfriend), and i can't think of a game with easier controls. Therefore, we have alot of work to do, and, frankly, we're just kinda stuck on the idea that we can't come up with anything better. Frankly, that should be the most important topic right now. I'm putting alot of hours into this game, and i still suck. Most people don't have the time to put in the time that I have, so if we want to grow, we should be talking about that kind of stuff right now. However, when we do, it often comes back to THIS.
Well, here's the thing: I'll play with folk offline, and then they're good. I'll then play the same mother-fucker later online, and they start acting like a child, throwing tantrums, complaining, sending you nasty messages and rage-quitting. So yeah, it happens more online. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily the online players themselves are worse. It's just the environment of being online makes people act worse.
And why've people even gotta start drama and shit on FB? People need to chill the fuck out, man.
This, this AND THIS! Stop coming in this topic accusing people of making this thing about "online vs offline", because it is you that are stirring things up. @iHajinShinobi said he could list at least 40 people, you couldn't possibly know who he is talking about. The point being everyone is accusing offline players of having big "egos", but truth be told the only egos you really see are from online warriors (which is the point). This isn't about bashing online players, this is addressing one of the major problems with our community, and within' the FGC in general. FDS is a competitive community, built and inspired by competitive players. Stop acting like every time someone mention a problem with online, that it's set as a insult to those who play online.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
This is the truth right here man and hopefully it makes things clear to those who may not understand it.
lol.
No, I don't think you do understand what I am talking about at all. Your response towards mine has nothing to do with what I said, nor is this "online vs offline", so back down and keep quiet. Because you obviously do not pay much attention to detail here as I have. Neither you or Tokyo Pew Pew, for that matter. You read and assume I am talking about all online players in general. Or just one person in particular, which isn't the case. I said I can easily name at least 40 people here. That implies I am talking about some people, not a general population.
You go to your local offline scene and compete in tournaments, that's good and it's what I like hear. However you misunderstand what I even said. These two have basically summarized what I mean;
HOWEVER, my point is that these giant egos exists more in some online players than it does in our community's offline scene. See, I am someone that is always watching these forums, I am looking at everyone and just observing everyone's behavior. Even in all those DOA facebook groups, there are tons of players who are online only that have a giant ego (don't even get me started on that because it is a lot worse there than it is here).
This community tears itself apart because people like to separate themselves from everyone else and some will go as far as claim they are equal (or better) than someone who supports our offline scene. Normally making top 8, criticizing players at events that they aren't even at. Some people are more concerned about building an online community and claim to be the best at something, instead of at least trying to build something offline or even think about how they can contribute here.
Do you really think you're the only one struggling to show off DOA at your local scene? A lot of people do, even here in California. We have thousands of players all over the U.S. playing our game online every single day, some people want to build an offline scene and all other things. Most actually want to be an online warrior and I've seen the behavioral patterns all too often to know I'm right (here, on XBL, PSN and facebook).
This is why our game's community is for the most part, scrubby (which is so unfortunate). This is why our offline scene would normally consist of the same players all too often, and why it's so tiny. There are many that are more concerned about being the best online and in lag. These things hurt DOA more than people realize.
I am not bashing anything, I am concerned about our community. And I will express my concerns.
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@Brute It just saddens me when I go somewhere like Dustloop or SRK, even DreamCancel for KOF and I see more more of a brighter community there (in a lot of different ways). And then I come here and usually the latest thing is about people boasting about rank or how they hate dealing with spacing and other things. Our community is just too sensitive.
We have a very good game and it's not as large as it really could be. Don't get me wrong, we do have people picking DOA5U up and actually like it. And some of our own players really enjoy it and want to get better. I am happy and proud to see some of the finer things. But the finer things are often overshadowed and that pains me more than most realize.
People are too quick to over generalize something and assume someone is bashing something when someone addresses our community issues. And that's because they do not see a lot of what I see. I am someone that loves our game and hope our community can wise up. That's why I came back and have done nothing but help as much as I can offline and online (forums, Team BEST, PSN, XBL, skype, etc).
We have a very good game and it's not as large as it really could be. Don't get me wrong, we do have people picking DOA5U up and actually like it. And some of our own players really enjoy it and want to get better. I am happy and proud to see some of the finer things. But the finer things are often overshadowed and that pains me more than most realize.
People are too quick to over generalize something and assume someone is bashing something when someone addresses our community issues. And that's because they do not see a lot of what I see. I am someone that loves our game and hope our community can wise up. That's why I came back and have done nothing but help as much as I can offline and online (forums, Team BEST, PSN, XBL, skype, etc).
Because I was speaking to you directly.