Rachel nerfs

[Itz King Beebop]

I don't really understand why all of these people feel that Rachel needs to be nerfed, "the stomp, the stomp, it's soooo OP!" IMO the only nerf that I feel should be set in motion is the free stomp from her 4T (127 damage, +15i on high counter... pretty stupid lol.) I feel that she just needs a few more moves; with such a small moves list, and very few spacing options she does really bad in a LOT of matchups... and then you add to it that she's not the fastest offense character, these details make it even harder to play to her strengths.

 

[DR2K]

The stomp needs to be nerfed only on whiff, but even with that she still has one of the best ground games.

 

[Lyn]

The stomp needs to be nerfed only on whiff, but even with that she still has one of the best ground games.

I believe most of her damage output could be mitigated if you force her to choose. Most people playing against her believe that they will beat her purely on frame advantage which is probably the worse way to play against her since all it really takes is for Rachel to get one good guess to make your life miserable.

Her ground game is ok. her innate SS allows for better mixups than actual spacing since you wouldn't want to twirl on a 12 Frame H+K from Momiji.

Rachel is strong. She's designed to be strong. I think we should consider changes if she proves to be a problem down the pipeline(Centralization tourney wide or domination with matchups throughout the cast.)

It's just to soon to be thinking about nerfs.

 

[DR2K]

I believe most of her damage output could be mitigated if you force her to choose. Most people playing against her believe that they will beat her purely on frame advantage which is probably the worse way to play against her since all it really takes is for Rachel to get one good guess to make your life miserable.

Her ground game is ok. her innate SS allows for better mixups than actual spacing since you wouldn't want to twirl on a 12 Frame H+K from Momiji.

Rachel is strong. She's designed to be strong. I think we should consider changes if she proves to be a problem down the pipeline(Centralization tourney wide or domination with matchups throughout the cast.)

It's just to soon to be thinking about nerfs.

No character should have this tech, period.

 

[d3v]

No character should have this tech, period.

Disagree. I'd rather more characters have it.

IMO, they should follow Capcom's lead with USFIV, where they're taking a look at the top ten characters and buffing everyone else to that level.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I'd rather other characters be strong enough in other departments to not care about dealing with this tech.

 

[d3v]

Some characters (Helena) need their blenders back.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Helena needs real sitdown stuns, like half the cast. Why does every character have sitdown stuns that guarantee a P if they're lucky?

 

[Cla]

You know.... something I've been thinking about in regards to this whole nerf Rachel mess....

When ANY char is used to their max potential, they seem mighty and unstoppable. I think you all are assuming Rachel is OP because we have discovered her max potential so quickly due to the fact that there isn't really much to do with her. She's a simple char with a straight-forward basic mix-up plan, and it's a plan that works like ANY other char's gameplan: Guess wrong, and you take big damage. We've just discovered how to get big damage and solid setups quickly with Rachel since there's not a whole lot of attacks to experiment with like everyone else.

 

[Tenryuga]

Rachel shouldn't be at disadvantage when she whiffs a 2K. I for one love the way the character is designed as she encourages proper defense in this game such as fuzzy guard, sidestep and good ol blocking. Too many players like to press buttons and toss out panic high crushes to get themselves out of bad situations in this game. That kind of scrubby play needs to be eliminated from DOA and that is why this character is so popular. She capitializes off the bad habits of the opponent so hard that it's beautiful. Keep her the way she is for a few months and I guarantee you you will never hear words like "defense is useless in DOA." ever again. I guarantee you players will have leveled up thier defense and decision making skills and we will all look back and laugh our asses off at how we complained about this character when she isn't even OP.

 

[Cla]

Oh and the whole "Rachel doesn't need to play the stun game" argument is a moot point. NO char in this game HAS to play the stun game. For EVERY char, the rules are: Risk playing stun game for more damage, or miss out on big damage to get less guaranteed damage.

Tested against super light weight...
No stun - 214P, F+P, 9P, 6KP = 66 damage
Lvl 1 stun - 9P, 214P, F+P, 9P, 6KP = 75 damage
Lvl 3 stun - 9P, 6PK, 6P, 66P, 214P, 9P, 9P, F+P, 9P, 6KP = 131 damage

That's double damage for playing the stun game. Please tell me how Rachel doesn't need to play the stun game?

 

[Tenryuga]

That's double damage for playing the stun game. Please tell me how Rachel doesn't need to play the stun game?

Usually when people say a character doesn't need to play the stun game it means its not in the characters best interest to do so. From those numbers Rachel is doing 25% and is granted a mixup opportunity. I'll take that over risking getting held and losing my momentum for 44%. Jann Lee on the other hand has poor damage output on a stun > launch so it is in the players best interest to extend the threshold with him or utilize dangerzones.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Tell me what other character can do that much damage on NH and get a force tech situation.

 

[Cla]

The force tech situation is another moot point because it's NOT guaranteed. You all should know by now to back-tech. If you don't tech, all chars have some form of FT possible.

Usually when people say a character doesn't need to play the stun game it means its not in the characters best interest to do so. From those numbers Rachel is doing 25% and is granted a mixup opportunity. I'll take that over risking getting held and losing my momentum for 44%.

This doesn't help the argument that Rachel isn't OP, but you can change the ender to a Lvl 3 crit combo (or any combo) and still go for stomp.

9P, 6PK, 6P, 66P, 214P, 9P, 9P, F+T, 6PK still gets 121 damage. You sacrifice 10 damage to get stomp attempt.

 

[DR2K]

Disagree. I'd rather more characters have it.

IMO, they should follow Capcom's lead with USFIV, where they're taking a look at the top ten characters and buffing everyone else to that level.

Nothing wrong with being punished for making the wrong guess.

They aren't because vortex characters reign supreme no matter what they've done to other characters.

 

[Lyn]

Nothing wrong with being punished for making the wrong guess.

They aren't because vortex characters reign supreme no matter what they've done to other characters.

Force tech puts you at a 50/50. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that case scenario. Stating that any charcter with a vortex will always be better is a really tough claim though.

 

[DR2K]

Force tech puts you at a 50/50. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that case scenario. Stating that any charcter with a vortex will always be better is a really tough claim though.

Yeah, but what logic there in winning an exchange no matter what.

 

[Brute]

Force tech puts you at a 50/50.

Noooooo it does not.

 

[Lyn]

Yeah, but what logic there in winning an exchange no matter what.

The purpose of the vortex is for you to guess.

Take Ibuki from SF4 as an example. After a knockdown, she has 3 options. Super Jump low kunai toss for crossup, Empty jump for another throw, or regular jump into a light crossup.

That's her game. If Capcom was to suddenly remove it, then she wouldn't be Ibuki anymore. Just a really weak Rolento.

I believe that's what TN was aiming for with Rachel. She gotta have something which separate her from other grapplers and powerhouses.

 

[Brute]

Take Ibuki from SF4 as an example. After a knockdown, she has 3 options. Super Jump low kunai toss for crossup, Empty jump for another throw, or regular jump into a light crossup.
That's her game. If Capcom was to suddenly remove it, then she wouldn't be Ibuki anymore. Just a really weak Rolento.

Well, in SF you have about 1/4th the moves you do with a DOA char, so each can be more critical to the character's identity (theoretically). But, no one proposed taking out the FT. Just altering its properties a bit. Also, the changes you are referring to are often less than a character's changes between games or versions. Would you say that Kasumi is no longer Kasumi since some of her moves and tactics have changed since DOA4->5->1.03->Ultimate? No, because a one-trick pony character in a 3D fighter is stupid. Her other aspects keep her identity as Kasumi. Rachel has plenty of other good things that make her Rachel beyond the force tech.