Sidestepping

[CyberEvil]

None taken. I'm trash at this game, but my observation seems to be relatively common. In my defense I never said I don't use the sidestep. I just find I get smacked out of it nearly 100% of the time because they're still pushing buttons.

 

[NightAntilli]

It's used in the same manner as other games, it's just not as effective. You shouldn't be attacking from every sidestep, just like people shouldn't be attacking nonstop, even though they do.

It's kind of weird to say that it's used in the same manner as other games when it works in a slightly different way. The basic principle of sidestepping always remains the same obviously, but that doesn't mean that you can use it in the same manner in every game, especially when you say it's less effective (which in a way is true). It means you have to change the way you use it for it to remain effective in specific situations. Otherwise you could be abandoning it altogether, which could leave you at a disadvantage. Sidestepping is a must against a good Kokoro player for example, since it's impossible to block all those mixups. You have to have it in your arsenal and know when to use it effectively, even though that's less often than in other games.


The reason why I pretty much always attack from the sidestep is the following. If I take VF5FS as a comparison, you have less recovery frames if you sidestep a move correctly, that is, during its execution frames. This prevents follow-ups from hitting you 'unfairly' and giving you some more advantage. If you 'guess' a sidestep and fail, you will have more recovery frames and will easily get punished for it. Not to mention side-hits, which I expected DOA5 to have but it didn't end up having it. Sidestepping has more uses there than just evading an attack, since you could lock someone in a side position to get guaranteed damage, and the difference between the short and the long recovery is what determines if you should attack after the sidestep or not. There are no sidestepping attacks here, and the game doesn't need to have it.

In DOA, no matter if you sidestep correctly or not, your recovery frames are the same as far as I know. So if you sidestep correctly, it might be better to simply use one of the attacks it has, preferably the one that crushes highs in case there's a follow-up, although you're probably not doing it right if you sidestep when the opponent has a bunch of follow-ups. If you're waiting for the recovery and then doing a normal string and you sidestepped fairly late, chances are that your opponent can still beat you out, even if they're slower than you. Sidestepping properly in this game gives you a chance for a guaranteed stun or knockdown with the follow-up attacks. Most of the sidestepping attacks are guaranteed to give you a stun independent of it landing as a NH, CH or HCH, and if not, it gives some frame advantage most of the time. Some NH sidestepping attacks are meh, but if you're doing it right, they should land as a CH anyway. And if they free-cancel the attack you were trying to sidestep, you can still hit them with the follow-up.. There is no real reason not to use those attacks, since simply doing a normal string after your successful sidestep will give you less than that, or even let you waste the sidestep.

 

[D Glock]

No offense, but these are two examples of why the level of play in this game is so low right now.

I'm just used to true side-stepping fighters like Tekken and Soul Calibur that actually works. Not one that is half-assed like in DoA5.

 

[DrDogg]

Sidestepping is a must against a good Kokoro player for example, since it's impossible to block all those mixups.

A good Kokoro will free-cancel and throw, completely negating your step. I find spacing to be more important against Kokoro than stepping.

The reason why I pretty much always attack from the sidestep is the following. If I take VF5FS as a comparison, you have less recovery frames if you sidestep a move correctly, that is, during its execution frames.

Compare the DOA step to the normal step in VF, not the special evade.

There is no real reason not to use those attacks, since simply doing a normal string after your successful sidestep will give you less than that, or even let you waste the sidestep.

There are many instances in which 2-3 steps in rapid succession will evade multiple attacks in a string. In almost every one of these situations, if you use a sidestep attack, you will get interrupted.

In addition, not all sidestep attacks are safe. In fact, a majority of them are not. If the opponent free-cancels the attack you're attempting to step, I'd rather stay relatively safe instead of giving the opponent a free punish.

Sometimes you sidestep attack, other times you should not. It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

I'm just used to true side-stepping fighters like Tekken and Soul Calibur that actually works. Not one that is a half-assed like in DoA5.

I won't argue with that, but to neglect it completely is limiting yourself.

 

[Dr Sexual]

In response to the multiple step argument I believe that properly stepping should be looked at as a high IQ defense whereas holding would be low IQ for example.

What I mean by this is that when used by someone who knows what they are doing a single well timed step should no doubt, no question, no guessing involved destroy any kind of low IQ offense (Mashing, Uninterrupted canned strings, multiple linears in a row ect).

The way it is now at best you have to step multiple times in a row in order to beat most of these things. With SS's being animation based in this game as opposed to a true step like in Soul Calibur you're left in yet another guessing situation once again as to when that string is going to end or be interrupted in order to be at any kind of real advantage out of your step.

One too many steps and you're back to where you started again if not worse off. One too few and you're right back in the axis of getting hit.

 

[NightAntilli]

A good Kokoro will free-cancel and throw, completely negating your step. I find spacing to be more important against Kokoro than stepping.

I don't think she has time for that if you input the attack, but don't quote me on that.

Compare the DOA step to the normal step in VF, not the special evade.

That is the normal evade. You can actually get hit out of the offensive move in VF5FS. You can watch that here, skip to 32:09

There are many instances in which 2-3 steps in rapid succession will evade multiple attacks in a string. In almost every one of these situations, if you use a sidestep attack, you will get interrupted.

I see no reason to go for multiple evades. I personally prefer to wait for something I know I can sidestep safely.

In addition, not all sidestep attacks are safe. In fact, a majority of them are not. If the opponent free-cancels the attack you're attempting to step, I'd rather stay relatively safe instead of giving the opponent a free punish.

I know most of them are unsafe. But if you time the sidestep properly the attack can't be blocked. The only time when people seem to block it is when you sidestep against nothing.

Sometimes you sidestep attack, other times you should not. It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

If you say so..

 

[GrandMasterson]

Attacks generally do track too much and I think it's dumb. I'm learning to just adapt to it though. I sidestep a lot in the neutral game to keep them guessing.

I think strings should only track if you delay them properly, whereas mashing out a string should be completely untrackable. Maybe that's just me though.

 

[DrDogg]

I don't think she has time for that if you input the attack, but don't quote me on that.

She can...

I see no reason to go for multiple evades. I personally prefer to wait for something I know I can sidestep safely.

Against Ayane's BT PPPP string. You have to use two sidesteps to evade the last two hits and avoid the guard break at the end of the string. This is the only way to avoid the guard break. There are many other such instances in the game.

I know most of them are unsafe. But if you time the sidestep properly the attack can't be blocked.

Even if you "time it correctly" it can still be blocked or interrupted depending on the situation.

If you say so..

I just proved it...

 

[NightAntilli]

She can...

Just tested it. She can't. What I did:

- Kokoro vs Leifang
- Recorded Kokoro with , free cancel, (5 frames). Chose this move because its follow-ups are very versatile
- I blocked the mid kick, sidestep with Leifang

She can grab me if I don't attack, but.. She can not grab me if I input the punch, but gets hit instead. Test it yourself. One more reason why attacking from sidestep is better.

Against Ayane's BT PPPP string. You have to use two sidesteps to evade the last two hits and avoid the guard break at the end of the string. This is the only way to avoid the guard break. There are many other such instances in the game.

Why risk the double sidestep if you can hold? Not to mention she has a bunch of circulars after BT PP. Even though what you say is true in theory, in practice it's way too risky.

Even if you "time it correctly" it can still be blocked or interrupted depending on the situation.

That means you didn't time it correctly..

I just proved it...

You use "proved it" too loosely.

 

[DrDogg]

Just tested it. She can't. What I did:

- Kokoro vs Leifang
- Recorded Kokoro with , free cancel, (5 frames). Chose this move because its follow-ups are very versatile
- I blocked the mid kick, sidestep with Leifang

She can grab me if I don't attack, but.. She can not grab me if I input the punch, but gets hit instead. Test it yourself. One more reason why attacking from sidestep is better.

I have tested it. Not every situation allows her to throw you. Just like she can delay the last hit of many strings to hit you even if you step and attack.

As I said the first time around, there are situations in which you should just step and situations in which you should step and attack. It's not cut and dry like you make it seem.

Why risk the double sidestep if you can hold? Not to mention she has a bunch of circulars after BT PP. Even though what you say is true in theory, in practice it's way too risky.

Why risk the hold if you can double sidestep? Not to mention she has a bunch of other options after BT PP. Even though what you say is true in theory, in practice it's way too risky.

Uh huh...

 

[OldsmoBuick]

It doesn't seem like SSing a PP starter is a good idea anyway. PP is usually a 2-in-1 attack to begin with. So it seems to make sense that a jab, followed by a straight, would -- and thankfully does -- quickly auto-correct. So, SSing a 9 to 11 frame jab that's followed by a 8 or 9 frame punch, puts you 'in' trouble, rather than getting you 'out of' trouble. A full SSing animation is 28 frames long -- with the final 10 leaving you exposed. Even w/o realigning after the jab, if you SS at the same time that they start their 11 frame jab followed by a 9 frame punch (2-in-1), you're at a disadvantage -- even with the 4 active frames added on -- because you're in a mix-up against a masher. If you attack, you'll be starting you offense from -4 at best, because their third attack is on it's way -- there will be no recovery frames after the 2nd P.

In DOA5 if you SS attack, you'll get hit by the 2nd P in many cases. If you SS the PP on reaction, it gets worse. I think this is best handled by high crushes.

 

[DrDogg]

In DOA5 if you SS attack, you'll get hit by the 2nd P in many cases. If you SS the PP on reaction, it gets worse. I think this is best handled by high crushes.

...or just hold the block button.

 

[Zeo]

...or just hold the block button.

Free cancel > Grab.
Free cancel > Low
String into low.
Possible guard break.

Blocking is necessary but certainly not always the "best" option.

 

[DrDogg]

Free cancel > Grab.
Free cancel > Low
String into low.
Possible guard break.

Blocking is necessary but certainly not always the "best" option.

Free cancel > Low
- Block the low. If the low is too fast to block on reaction, chances are it either doesn't stun on normal hit or isn't a deep enough stun to "guarantee" a follow-up.
- A high crush (the recommended "best option") would still possibly get hit by this.

String into low
- Block the low. If the low is too fast to block on reaction, chances are it either doesn't stun on normal hit or isn't a deep enough stun to "guarantee" a follow-up.
- A high crush (the recommended "best option") would still possibly get hit by this.

Possible guard break
- Most guard breaks in this game do not guarantee a follow-up. In fact, many of them are disadvantage on block.

I never said blocking is "always" the best option. All I said was, "...or just hold the block button." Basically saying that blocking is an option, and an option I would take over a high crush in many instances. There is no "best option" in this game. Sometimes you should step and attack, sometimes you should double step, sometimes you should attempt a crush, sometimes you should fuzzy, sometimes you should just block.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

...or just hold the block button.

I agree with your response, in the sense that blocking is a viable -- often unused -- option. My response was aimed toward the creator of this thread. In the initial post, SSing PP strings was mentioned. To me, SSing PP strings is impractical, and rather dangerous. Whereas high crushes are tailored for that specific situation. SSing in anticipation (guessing) of any attack is a risky proposition, and one I wouldn't advocate. The comment seemed to imply that they were attempting to SS a PP string on reaction, which I feel is poor use of the mechanic, and a big (sole?) reason that they were getting negative results.

 

[DrDogg]

I agree with your response, in the sense that blocking is a viable -- often unused -- option. My response was aimed toward the creator of this thread. In the initial post, SSing PP strings was mentioned. To me, SSing PP strings is impractical, and rather dangerous. Whereas high crushes are tailored for that specific situation. SSing in anticipation (guessing) of any attack is a risky proposition, and one I wouldn't advocate. The comment seemed to imply that they were attempting to SS a PP string on reaction, which I feel is poor use of the mechanic, and a big (sole?) reason that they were getting negative results.

You can't SS a PP string on reaction, I agree with that. But you can't high crush it on reaction either. In both instances you'd be guessing.

 

[OldsmoBuick]

Truthfully, I don't have a problem with attacks realigning on the fly. I do, however, think that you should be able to cancel the last 10 frames into a defensive move of some (any) sort. SS -- single linear strike invulnerability for 18 frames -- cancelled (via buffer) into a hold, a backdash, fuzzy guard, parry, sabaki etc. would elevate defensive gameplay, while looking pretty BA in the process. Now that's, 'fighting entertainment'!

 

[OldsmoBuick]

You can't SS a PP string on reaction, I agree with that. But you can't high crush it on reaction either. In both instances you'd be guessing.

If we're referring to fighting against players like yourself, then I'll agree. Seeing as how they mentioned SSing a PPP string, I think we're dealing with a newbie or a masher. Higher level players know not to spam out string-enders, as these attacks are going to get throw punished if blocked -- settle down Gen Fu -- or held on reaction. A masher however, could easily be spaced, baited and crushed. To me, this particular SSing faux pas, occurred against a newbie or a masher. I could of course, be wrong. What are your thoughts?

 

[Dr Sexual]

Y

If we're referring to fighting against players like yourself, then I'll agree. Seeing as how they mentioned SSing a PPP string, I think we're dealing with a newbie or a masher. Higher level players know not to spam out string-enders, as these attacks are going to get throw punished if blocked -- settle down Gen Fu -- or held on reaction. A masher however, could easily be spaced, baited and crushed. To me, this particular SSing faux pas, occurred against a newbie or a masher. I could of course, be wrong. What are your thoughts?

I think you're taking what I said too literally. There are characters with more than 3 attacks in a "PPP" string, as well as some that have mids mixed into them.

Also im not only talking about PPP strings or high or low level play, im talking about the fact that I believe multiple attacks in ANY string should not realign on the axis without properly delaying if need be. So I was trying to discuss the general system not specific situations. I just used PPP as a very basic easy to understand example.

This seems to be such a big problem with this community. Any time a general system related mechanic gets brought up it always turns into a back and forth involving specific character strats and situations. Which I believe is because most people dont take time to try and learn the game and mechanics itself before trying to "master" a character. So when general game discussion gets brought up all they know are the specifics to the few characters they understand. Probably why for instance why the general community STILL doesn't consistently slow escape or even really understand its uses.

 

[HiguraShiki]

So when general game discussion gets brought up all they know are the specifics to the few characters they understand. Probably why for instance why the general community STILL doesn't consistently slow escape or even really understand its uses.

Well, I'm not a good player. But I pretty much have given up on slow escaping. I don't know if it is simply because the netcoding fucks everything up, but everytime I try to slow escape, no matter how fast I do it, the stun is always extended. This same situation just forces me to guess a hold and pray I am right or simply wait out the stun.