Some gameplay issues with DOA6?

[Rikuto]

In older games we had enough push back. Throw range has gotten longer and longer as the series has progressed, though. And it's character and throw specific too. Honoka is an example of it being absolutely out of control, despite her stubby little T-rex arms having no strike range.

Moves are so much safer right now than they were with 4 though. It currently is the way it is because string delay is a massive threat in this game compared to canned string Tekken or even VF where the delay windows are much shorter. If your moves have more utility in one place, they gota be weaker somewhere else, and that's kinda where it lies right now.

If neutral does get cleaned up with throw breaks and movement though, that's different. We'll need to see how it feels. Damn near everything still stuns, and that's not something to forget.

 

[KasumiLover]

In older games we had enough push back. Throw range has gotten longer and longer as the series has progressed, though. And it's character and throw specific too. Honoka is an example of it being absolutely out of control, despite her stubby little T-rex arms having no strike range.

Moves are so much safer right now than they were with 4 though. It currently is the way it is because string delay is a massive threat in this game compared to canned string Tekken or even VF where the delay windows are much shorter. If your moves have more utility in one place, they gota be weaker somewhere else, and that's kinda where it lies right now.

If neutral does get cleaned up with throw breaks and movement though, that's different. We'll need to see how it feels. Damn near everything still stuns, and that's not something to forget.

In Tekken what do you mean canned string?

 

[Rikuto]

In Tekken what do you mean canned string?

In this context meaning strict input time with no room for delays between attacks.

 

[KasumiLover]

In this context meaning strict input time with no room for delays between attacks.

This isn't always the case. Characters like Lili who I use have strings where you can delay, like her df4,4 dominating heel or her d2,2,3/d2,2,4 bloody masquerade lance/piton and several others can be delayed but its not every move.

I also hope DOA makes some static strings safer, like they can make Kasumi's 1PP and 3KK safe on block imo since the only follow up they have is a high which can be ducked or low held out of xD they could even remove the delay to make it fair if they had too

 

[Rikuto]

This isn't always the case. Characters like Lili who I use have strings where you can delay, like her df4,4 dominating heel or her d2,2,3/d2,2,4 bloody masquerade lance/piton and several others can be delayed but its not every move.

I also hope DOA makes some static strings safer, like they can make Kasumi's 1PP and 3KK safe on block imo since the only follow up they have is a high which can be ducked or low held out of xD they could even remove the delay to make it fair if they had too

In tekken, that isn't always the case but 99% of the time it IS the case.

In DOA, you have the opposite situation.

Anyway, strings that end in high can arguably be safer if there isn't any mixup option. In general its sorta bad to use those moves anyway.

 

[Raansu]

This isn't always the case. Characters like Lili who I use have strings where you can delay, like her df4,4 dominating heel or her d2,2,3/d2,2,4 bloody masquerade lance/piton and several others can be delayed but its not every move.

I also hope DOA makes some static strings safer, like they can make Kasumi's 1PP and 3KK safe on block imo since the only follow up they have is a high which can be ducked or low held out of xD they could even remove the delay to make it fair if they had too

The difference is that in DoA every character can delay attacks or free cancel the string.

 

[KasumiLover]

The difference is that in DoA every character can delay attacks or free cancel the string.

That can be done with Tekken as well tho. For example when lili does her WR 1,2 or Sullen Daisy, she can either free cancel and not go for the low, delay the low(it can,be delayed), or she can free cancel and use something else if you make a good guess and get your opponent to crouch like say 1+2 broken heart.

In tekken, that isn't always the case but 99% of the time it IS the case.

In DOA, you have the opposite situation.

Anyway, strings that end in high can arguably be safer if there isn't any mixup option. In general its sorta bad to use those moves anyway.

Exactly, plus in Tekken, Lili and other characters have low to highs and the high is always or usually safe. Kasumi imo can afford to have her 1PP and 3KK safe since even tho they can be delayed, come on now chances are the kasumi player won't finish those strings since the reward isn't worth it. 1PP just does a lift stun, 3KK knocks down, and 2KK provides a pathetic launch, they might as well be safe since they can be ducked or low held xD

 

[d3v]

It wouldn't matter if they slowed down BB because it still counters attacks, and you'll be hitting buttons to avoid getting plucked by unreactable throws.

But if they slowed it down, you'd be able to react to someone throwing it out raw while you're both in neutral, and even bait it out with faster normals.

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe they could substitute the invulnerability for a hit or two of armor instead.

 

[GreatDarkHero]

My only issues that may arise with DOA6 are the following:

- Some highs and mids being a little too negative on hit in their frames. Lows being negative is understandable in context of a 3D fighting game.

- Fatal Rushes by themselves. Can they also be manifested or incorporated into different strings? Would there be strings that have the same properties as the Fatal Rushes?

 

[MasterHavik]

Here is my issue. The game seems to be heavily geared towards mashing right now.

 

[Fantailler]

In older games we had enough push back. Throw range has gotten longer and longer as the series has progressed, though. And it's character and throw specific too. Honoka is an example of it being absolutely out of control, despite her stubby little T-rex arms having no strike range.

Moves are so much safer right now than they were with 4 though. It currently is the way it is because string delay is a massive threat in this game compared to canned string Tekken or even VF where the delay windows are much shorter. If your moves have more utility in one place, they gota be weaker somewhere else, and that's kinda where it lies right now.

If neutral does get cleaned up with throw breaks and movement though, that's different. We'll need to see how it feels. Damn near everything still stuns, and that's not something to forget.

Yes everything stuns on counter regardless of the framedata and the risk you took.Only fewer selected moves should trigger it.

It's a flawed design by itself and it becomes worse with delay and the lack of solid defensive tools/fast paced movement to negate this situation.

They should implement a batch of new stuns designed either around positionning or strict frame advantage,being unholdable.Low risk/low reward giving control back to players,allowing them to take decisions with logical tools designed for offense or defense, not both or none.

Everything is out of control as you mentionned, it's a mess.

Honestly Rikuto if you clean up everything in neutral i'm convinced the game will feel better.To fix this game you need to start from scratch there's almost no synergy.I believe it to be the most reasonable thing to do without breaking the game even more,and without having to start all over.Stun,holds,delay/high/middle/low mixup,wakeup invicibilty, "real neutral" when stun occurs, throw for punish, no universal throw break etc etc such a headache already.This game is almost forcing you to abare everytime,that's crazy and it's totally against its philosophy and purpose.Or punish with a throw...

TN probably won't change the core of DOA for a simple reason,they're totally clueless...It sounds arsh but it's my conclusion... or they simply don't care.Doa is somewhat like ST2 but without the fudamentals,yeah it's busted but it works against all odds which is not the case for DOA.Keep it busted in offense i almost don't care but give me proper tools to defend against this tsunami without robbing my opponent with BS shenanigans and semi automatic tools.

If it ain't fixed break it...is not the best approach imo

 

[crapoZK]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a meter powered move beating out other moves or having invulnerability.

That's not what I have problems with though. Tekken, SC, Street Fighter - basically every fighter atm has something like this in their games. After I stated the facts of the move it was really the damage you get from it that I was somewhat complaining about, but it still makes sense as for why it's like that as it's meter powered. If the meter didn't build up SO QUICK I wouldn't be so iffy about it, but that meter is crazy atm and I'm pretty positive TN will look into it later down the road. I wonder exactly how unsafe Break Blows are at the moment. Can we punish Break Blows with Break Blows?

The real issue is probably the FR > BB combo almost killing you as the BB damage doesn't look like it scales down at the moment. Oh well fam. We will see changes xD

 

[Lulu]

Wow... so this thread is still going strong...

Yall are really concerned about the DoA changes... I am too. But I'm gonna roll with whatever happens.

LoL... its funny because I feel like because the game is in development... right now is such a critical time to implement changes while its still possible to do so... so this thread is kinda a big deal...

Edit: like... it was still on page 5 last time I came in thread... lol.

 

[NightAntilli]

Wow... so this thread is still going strong...

Yall are really concerned about the DoA changes... I am too. But I'm gonna roll with whatever happens.

LoL... its funny because I feel like because the game is in development... right now is such a critical time to implement changes while its still possible to do so... so this thread is kinda a big deal...

Edit: like... it was still on page 5 last time I came in thread... lol.

We've touched a lot of topics, including the DOA fundemantals being broken (or at least heavily flawed), and that counts for the neutral game too.

 

[virtuaPAI]

14 SECONDS IN
SO BEAUTIFUL
Please watch and see how you can play defense in a real fighting game that doesn't rely exclusively on holds.
A grappler can step around a linear attack and actually throw. How amazing is that?
I can't name a single instance where Tina could use a backturned throw in 5.
Like, holy crap, this little change makes such a big difference.
I don't even know what BT throws she has. I kind of want to pull up training or a guide now.

-Not to toot my own horn...ahh fuck it. The exact reason this website is called "freeStepDodge" is based all around that said Technique...also..it was a more technical gameplay technique...something Mr.Wah and myself have championed over the years. also if you look at those videos once more, do notice how we were spacing a hell of a lot more than in say DOA5, and attacks whiffed hell of a lot more!!!

FSD was pretty wonky in DoA3, but it had its moments like that which were "fairly" consistent. Its a shame it never got improved on with DoA4. Instead they just made the tracking even more ridiculous.

-Bro it wasnt wonky lol. I have that shit broken down...damn near scientifically!! http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/free-stepping-in-doa3-1.116/

It also helped that the stun game was not as crazy as it is in 4 and 5.

-Let me make clarify. There was no stun game in Dead Or Alive 3!!!! Absolutely none!!! If you would just look back at all those matches, Stuns was used as pure frame advantage...and players used nitaku situations..ie 50/50 that favored the player on the offense!!! It was usually based upon a players most powerful throw(100+ Hi-counter throw damage), or their most powerful juggle(90+ in damage). Than you had the environmental sets ups that forced a lot of mental pressure on the opponent. So there was no stun game as in let me mix-up my attacks so may either get max launch or do a critical burst!! Depending on the stun it was either(for the player on defense) do I risk holding and lose 100+ in damage or do I eat this lesser damaging attack!!!

I also feel that one of the strongest deterrents for "random or guess holding" is in the punishment of the hold being greater than the hold's reward itself. DOA3 ran off a 3-way hold system, and there were less "hold restricted" situations than DOA5. But you can't sit there while play against an experienced player in it and say "I'll just guess a hold" as one throw in that game could mean literal death, even if you have half life. It's not a slap on the wrist like DOA4, and in most cases DOA5, was.

-YESSSS! and it was perfect!!! Team Ninja if you are reading this. You must go back to Doa3.1(Japanese Version) Set up. Fuck the whole 3-point vs 4-point hold option. Just make it 3 point using the exact 3.1 risk/reward system). Also, Just use the Exact stun, and throw mechanics from DOA2/3.

Additionally, the faster throw speed (7i being the slowest outside of Catch Throws at 16i) allowed one to punish whiffed holds easier on reaction.

-Just because VF5 made their throw speeds slower, it was totally not necessary for DOA!!! Team Ninja...once again if you are reading this, Look...attacks are fast, Defensive Holds are fast...so throws should be just as Fast!!! No one ever in this community(Least over here in the west) Ever Complained about throw speeds so why the unnecessary change!!! It def needs to go back!!! Since DOA6 is only 10% completed as they say....doing something like this is not too late.

 

[NewWestFan]

-Let me make clarify. There was no stun game in Dead Or Alive 3!!!! Absolutely none!!! If you would just look back at all those matches, Stuns was used as pure frame advantage...and players used nitaku situations..ie 50/50 that favored the player on the offense!!! It was usually based upon a players most powerful throw(100+ Hi-counter throw damage), or their most powerful juggle(90+ in damage). Than you had the environmental sets ups that forced a lot of mental pressure on the opponent. So there was no stun game as in let me mix-up my attacks so may either get max launch or do a critical burst!! Depending on the stun it was either(for the player on defense) do I risk holding and lose 100+ in damage or do I eat this lesser damaging attack!!!

-Just because VF5 made their throw speeds slower, it was totally not necessary for DOA!!! Team Ninja...once again if you are reading this, Look...attacks are fast, Defensive Holds are fast...so throws should be just as Fast!!! No one ever in this community(Least over here in the west) Ever Complained about throw speeds so why the unnecessary change!!! It def needs to go back!!! Since DOA6 is only 10% completed as they say....doing something like this is not too late.

This would cause me to main Tina hard. I regret not being around for 3.

 

[phoenix1985gr]

Like any game there's aspects you'll always like and dislike. I was never a fan of the stun changes made in 4 and didn't like that much of it remained in 5 and even in doa2 and 3 I felt things like defensive holds should not be available in stun.



Only thing I dislike about guest characters is you don't see them again. I know Rachael has much of Nichole (Spartan's) moves, but its still not the same lol. I loved playing that character.

Im not gonna say if I agree or not with this, but im gonna say that if you make holds not availiable in stun, without changing anything else say in DoA 5, it would become stupid... Getting hit with a 6p going into a stun and then going to cb into juggle without any way of the defensive player stopping you wouldnt be healthy in my opinion...

In order to make holds unavailiable in stun you would need to change many more things (especially the stun game) to become balanced... Im sure you already have this in mind obviously but i just thought it would be good to point it out... Cause removing holds in stun without changing anything else in say Doa 5 would make a worse game in my opinion...

It would be the equivelant of Xiaoyu's df1 to stun you and she gets a free 4 launch... would be kinda broken IMO. I mean i know tekken has nothing to do with doa as far as how the fighting system goes but yeah just a ridiculous comparison I guess to make a point


Also I saw DrDogg's post on the other forum, and I find it weird that no one here commented on how throaw lost their tracking... Do you think its a good change?

 

[Raansu]

Thus why I advocate for the return of DoA3.1 stun system.

I'm not sure how I feel about throws not tracking.

 

[Project Bokuho]

3.1 = Best point 1

 

[Matt Ponton]

Throws aren't beating sidestep anymore since the entire move at the time of e3 was an attack. That's why it wasn't tracking.