Something I'd like people to start testing...

[Something-Unique]

Never noticed this thread before. After reading it though i'm honestly surprised that some of the more notable DOA competitors would opt for a smaller life setting. It honestly seems like it would overall have a negative effect on the advancements DOA5 made to the franchise as a more serious fighter.

Holds for one go right back to being ridiculous which was one of if not the biggest complaint about DOA's viability. The health reduction would also turn the game into another TK. Coming back to this franchise, one of the things I appreciated most about DOA5 is it marks itself as one of the very few games left on the market that appreciates and actual fight (SF4 being the other). Pretty much everything else is land 2 hits and die or in the case of marvel 1.

Some characters are also very high on the damage scale already. Switching the health to a lower setting will definitely disrupt balance. Might even break some characters out right. Lets not forget for example not everyone actually gets guaranteed launches off of their sit down stuns. Those who do could become completely ridiculous.

I could go on but the game seems to be designed around what the normal health is. Reducing it would create tons of silly situations.

 

[Raansu]

Interesting discussion, however, a smaller amount of hit points will decrees the chances of the better player winning. I'm sure there's merit to the assertion that a small health bar will contribute to the player being more careful however as this is a physiological affect this can be done on any size health bar () . I'll "train" and play casually with small health bars sure but it's hardly anything to promote in tourneys.

The point of lowering the health bar is to make punishment more rewarding and for strikes to feel like strikes. On normal a strike feels like a mosquito bite while on small and even smallest its much more rewarding when you read your opponent correctly and strikes do respectable damage.

 

[Rikuto]

Never noticed this thread before. After reading it though i'm honestly surprised that some of the more notable DOA competitors would opt for a smaller life setting. It honestly seems like it would overall have a negative effect on the advancements DOA5 made to the franchise as a more serious fighter.

Holds for one go right back to being ridiculous which was one of if not the biggest complaint about DOA's viability. The health reduction would also turn the game into another TK. Coming back to this franchise, one of the things I appreciated most about DOA5 is it marks itself as one of the very few games left on the market that appreciates and actual fight (SF4 being the other). Pretty much everything else is land 2 hits and die or in the case of marvel 1.

Some characters are also very high on the damage scale already. Switching the health to a lower setting will definitely disrupt balance. Might even break some characters out right. Lets not forget for example not everyone actually gets guaranteed launches off of their sit down stuns. Those who do could become completely ridiculous.

I could go on but the game seems to be designed around what the normal health is. Reducing it would create tons of silly situations.

You haven't actually tried it at all, have you?

The "advancements to the game" were designed to kill you with fewer chances of getting out. This works with that, not against it.

 

[MasterHavik]

smallest is the way to go guys.

 

[Something-Unique]

You haven't actually tried it at all, have you?

The "advancements to the game" were designed to kill you with fewer chances of getting out. This works with that, not against it.

Actually I have tried it. Only makes sense seeing how its the foundation of this thread.

The "advancements to the game" were designed to give you more guaranteed damage situations and less hold spam.

1. New stuns that guarantee (or were intended to anyway) a follow up hit. Not sure if the developers actually realized slow escape can prevent otherwise guaranteed situations from these stuns.

2. The addition of critical burst. Same concept as above but different execution.

3. The addition of power blows which are a universal neutral method of getting the exact same damage opportunity (as you can tell its the same for everyone).

4. Increased hold recovery (admittedly low hold is still a bit silly).

All the above were "advancements to the game" that were designed to create more guaranteed damage situations and minimize hold spam. It's pretty self explanatory and is a positive step towards a more respectable fighter. Hold damage was also nerfed as well which is extremely smart because opening your opponent up should be in favor of that person and not the one getting combo'ed with a random hold that completely negates that.

The game was designed a certain way. A life bar health reduction will definitely change the game and disrupt balance. You might not notice it now but it definitely will. For the record I personally don't care what decision is made as i'm perfectly fine with either smallest or normal (small is unnecessary). Smallest (240) puts the health right around the same value as one or two other notable fighters. Small (270) puts the game at a weird health value.

The main issue though is any health reduction would create potential balance issues. Especially since there are quite a few characters that already are quite high on the damage scale on normal. Not to mention some characters flat out destroying roughly 50% of your life bar from one hi counter throw or a lucky random hold (a well educated guess won't even be necessary).

 

[MasterHavik]

Zack can do half life on small to smallest.

 

[TRI Mike]

The only thing making me doubt smallest right now is hold damage.

 

[MasterHavik]

holds will be fine.

 

[Raansu]

The only thing making me doubt smallest right now is hold damage.

The holds really don't do much more than usual. It's the strike damage that gets most of the big improvements from the health change.

 

[Chaos]

Normal life bar is perfect to me.

 

[Berzerk!]

Normal has resulted in slow matches and in my environment that's a concern because it dampens spectator excitement. Why is this important? Most of the spectators are other fighting game players. Making matches more intense and exciting, and the decisions in a match more meaningful and consequential can have a positive effect.

Having played some test sets on small and smallest life, testing both grapplers and strikers, using highest damage throws and ceitical burst combos, the damage always felt within reason and the ability for players to come back remained intact - while improving the speed and intensity of each round.

I am still not 100% sure hold damage is as low as desired on this setting but its still got the basic balancing factor of holds being much more punishable now. You want to use them seldomly and smartly.

Just like vf5fs lowered life and upped combo damage from its previous version made that game more dynamic and brutal, exciting for players and spectators, the same holds true for doa5 on smallest.

Gonna stick with this for now and try it out in the regular tournaments we run in our area.

 

[Rikuto]

Actually I have tried it. Only makes sense seeing how its the foundation of this thread.

The "advancements to the game" were designed to give you more guaranteed damage situations and less hold spam.

1. New stuns that guarantee (or were intended to anyway) a follow up hit. Not sure if the developers actually realized slow escape can prevent otherwise guaranteed situations from these stuns.

2. The addition of critical burst. Same concept as above but different execution.

3. The addition of power blows which are a universal neutral method of getting the exact same damage opportunity (as you can tell its the same for everyone).

4. Increased hold recovery (admittedly low hold is still a bit silly).

All the above were "advancements to the game" that were designed to create more guaranteed damage situations and minimize hold spam. It's pretty self explanatory and is a positive step towards a more respectable fighter. Hold damage was also nerfed as well which is extremely smart because opening your opponent up should be in favor of that person and not the one getting combo'ed with a random hold that completely negates that.

The game was designed a certain way. A life bar health reduction will definitely change the game and disrupt balance. You might not notice it now but it definitely will. For the record I personally don't care what decision is made as i'm perfectly fine with either smallest or normal (small is unnecessary). Smallest (240) puts the health right around the same value as one or two other notable fighters. Small (270) puts the game at a weird health value.

The main issue though is any health reduction would create potential balance issues. Especially since there are quite a few characters that already are quite high on the damage scale on normal. Not to mention some characters flat out destroying roughly 50% of your life bar from one hi counter throw or a lucky random hold (a well educated guess won't even be necessary).

Balance is not even an issue with this. The characters that hit like trucks still hit like trucks, nothing has changed there.

But characters like Kasumi can actually DO something now. Balance has been affected in a positive manner, not a negative one. Just like DOA 4, changing it to a smaller life setting makes the game more balanced, not less. Check a few pages back for Sorwah's chart on that.

 

[Something-Unique]

I think your forgetting that balance issues don't just occur solely based on damage. There is a reason a neutral game exists and certain charactersvdo less than others. The people that hit like trucks will still hit like trucks but it will hurt a whole lot more and be handed to them with much less work. One hi counter izuna from a hold or throw kills in 2 instead of 3 minus a few hit points. Bayman, Bass, Tina, etc. Mila who I main has silly damage from everything which will make her incredibly stupid. There is unlisted tech I have with her as well that is nasty. Very little work would be required to kill someone with her

Kasumi has essentially unmatchable speed. In order to balance fast characters like that more often that not there damage needs to be neutered. This is because there ability to open you up (neutral game) is higher due to faster pokes. For example Sarah can already humble you on her speed alone and she has all kinds of nasty mixups and frame advantage. Plus sabaki counters which are in her actual offense. She can open you up faster than any other character in the game. Has a guaranteed launcher from one of her sit down stuns. She is already a top tier character but humbled a little because of her damage output. Perfect example of a character who could become outright stupid because of a health nerf. Same thing with Pai. Her speed needs to be neutered by damage.

To say "balance has been affected in a positive manner, not a negative one" is reaching (for now anyway). I wasn't around for DOA4 like you guys but I can still tell that DOA5 is definitely not DOA4 or I wouldn't be playing it lol. DOA5 is a different game.

I'm working on quite a few characters just like I did in SC5. When I get them all to the level as my Mila I wanna thoroughly test the smallest setting with you, ryujin etc.

 

[RyuJin]

We will do so sir.

 

[Something-Unique]

So far I have You, Rikuto, Silent Legend, Demon, Blackula. I noticed you mentioned playing Izuna Otoshi in some casuals offline. Does he have the PS3 version as well? Iv'e come across Dr.Dogg pre-patch as well but the connect wasn't the best. I assume Master and Vanessa are probably Xbox exclusive? Does MiniTheGreat still play? I'm missing quite a few old DOA2U heads.

 

[Rikuto]

Bayman actually gets weaker with smallest, and I still prefer it.

I mean yea, his damage on high-counter is through the effing roof, but how is he going to get it? With normal I will spend many rounds right up in someones face as soon as it starts, because I can make that risky read and get away with it. If it pays off, I can use my guard break pressure and force techs to get them to the wall and win the round no problem.

On smallest, I have massive damage but I can't afford to take the risk of being in your face at the start of the round, so it's much harder to get in. Bayman, having one of the worst get-in games of the entire cast, therefore suffers from this life setting by default as it takes away his wild card.

I mean I can still do it, sure, but if I guess wrong and I get blitzed, the entire round is over in seconds. It isn't smart at all.

If, however, Bayman plays the neutral game smart, takes an opening and either pulls off a DDT (which is both reactable and breakable, FYI) or get them to a wall (difficulty varying depending on the stage) he will win.

I think it makes Bayman a frankly more balanced character as well, as on normal I can abuse his tools with no real fear of how disadvantaged I am. That just doesn't seem right for a momentum based character who only needs one good opening to win.

 

[Something-Unique]

I dunno rikuto. I had my first session of smallest in high level play and I got my ass handed to me. Mind u I have played and never lost to everyone in there except two people that I played for the first time. All of a sudden I was getting wrecked. I never dropped so many stuns out of hesitation for one hold blowing me up. The buffering system issues that's in this game caused me to get blown up by accidental notations as well.

The damage honestly felt worse than TK due to danger zones everywhere. So far i'm gonna say from the experience iv'e had the metagame seemed to be completely gone. It just came down to 2 stun games and death or 1 stun game and a string or a throw. It really seemed silly. I'll try another one again and hopefully I won't be so mindfuqed by the damage that I can play better but for now the damage was retarded.

 

[Rikuto]

I dunno rikuto. I had my first session of smallest in high level play and I got my ass handed to me. Mind u I have played and never lost to everyone in there except two people that I played for the first time. All of a sudden I was getting wrecked. I never dropped so many stuns out of hesitation for one hold blowing me up. The buffering system issues that's in this game caused me to get blown up by accidental notations as well.

The damage honestly felt worse than TK due to danger zones everywhere. So far i'm gonna say from the experience iv'e had the metagame seemed to be completely gone. It just came down to 2 stun games and death or 1 stun game and a string or a throw. It really seemed silly. I'll try another one again and hopefully I won't be so mindfuqed by the damage that I can play better but for now the damage was retarded.

Two stuns to death? And you're getting destroyed because you're trying to gamble instead of fight?

Sounds good to me. The hold damage is still a joke unless you're taking a one from neutral. You need to take a look at how much damage your opponent is taking in comparison and stop worrying about your healthbar when you're on the offense. If you've been playing correctly and NOT getting hit, you will have plenty of health left to not worry about silly things like the hold.

Honestly man, if you're getting "wrecked" and you've never been "wrecked" in DOA before, it sounds like smallest has done something right.

 

[MasterHavik]

hey rikuto...people are shitting on your idea in the facebook group.

 

[Awesmic]

hey rikuto...people are shitting on your idea in the facebook group.

Actually, a few people had him misunderstood.

They were under the impression he was considering the lifebar change on tournament settings, when in actuality, he intended this for casual play. It was intended to serve as a means of punishment awareness for people who want to get rid of some bad habits, at best.

At least that's how I interpreted it.