Strongest Strategy Thread in the World: Leon Strategy/ Best moves
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Gurimmjaw
Well-Known Member
I never got a notification from this for some reason
Now I'm assuming you talking about when we were talking about stuff Leon can do from bt
You can do from back 7p, 2k, 1p and follow up with 3p, 214p, or 9k.
On fast stagger gives 2 different advantages. One leaving at +8 and the other at +20.
What I'm assuming to make sure you have that +20 advantage and not +8 is when you do the 2k they have to land on their stomach and when doing 1p afterwards you get the +20 advantage. However if it other way around when you do 2k and they land on their back and you do 1p afterwards you get +8 only
I don't know if it would be really good or not. I like the option 7p, 2k, 7p, 2k, p+k better.
I believe Leon has a decent bt game. Now I'm not sure if this already known but when opponent on wake up and try to do a wake up kick you can do 9p and their kick will hit on opposite direction and you can do his bt stuff. Pretty cool.
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The only issue with using 9P to jump over them is that you have to be really close when you use it and you have to use it before they actually kick (if he jumped a little higher it would be easier). Other characters have much more effective means of getting over downed opponents and his 9P is just really limited in that (not saying that it isn't good, I've done it plenty of times).
Interesting note about 9K against Super Heavyweights. At CB and Threshold 3 you can't get an air throw off of it BUT you can if at Threshold 3 and you 9K them while they are Holding Low or you 9K them out of a Sit Down from his 3K or even his 33P. Can't air throw them from a normal Sit Down such as 8P.
Lulu
Well-Known Member
Thats weird...... if they're at the Threshold then in theory the throw should work since thats the maximum launch height...... is possible that low holding is some how flinging the Heavyweights a tiny bit higher at the threshold ?
What does Page 2 of the move details say ?
I know you get higher launches in general from Crouching opponents when in theory you should be getting the highest launches on CB.
Also, Leon's 6PP is a 2 in 1 on NH.
Edit: Also because off 3K you can get a CB unless your opponent is Staggering at fastest 9K from it is 100% guranateed. If you like to 2K 3K and your opponent is able to consistently escape it going for 9K or 214P is best.
Also, Leon's 6PP is a 2 in 1 on NH.
Edit: Also because off 3K you can get a CB unless your opponent is Staggering at fastest 9K from it is 100% guranateed. If you like to 2K 3K and your opponent is able to consistently escape it going for 9K or 214P is best.
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Gurimmjaw
Well-Known Member
I must ask this, but is there a need for Leon's BT combos? I mean the chances of getting a bt is rare, although would work well against characters who go into bt a lot. Ayane, Lisa, etc. I feel that his better strength lies at his wall game. As I did mention earlier about 9p and using it to get from back of opponent can be useful, but also risky at the same time. I think there a lot of use to his h+k and 8k so trying to mess around with this.
Also nice find @XZero264 on 6pp being a 2 in 1 on NH. I know 4p6k is on block but can be held on NH.
Also nice find @XZero264 on 6pp being a 2 in 1 on NH. I know 4p6k is on block but can be held on NH.
I said somewhere in the thread that while you can't really expect it to happen but having some kind of BT game helps. More or less in the first month or two of Ultimate we kind of picked up just about everything Leon was capable of. Optimal launchers and breakables were the big ones for a while but Leon is so limited that everything kinda came at once. We find those bits and pieces every now and then that have us suddenly scrambling to find out if that one combo we performed or that one strike property really did what we think it just did (see my thing about 9K on Super Heavies above).
I've been using 7P as my primary whiff punish a lot lately. 15i with a strong stun on NH that happens to Limbo if their current command leaves them back turned. 8K is the next best (one of his longest ranged strikes but it's a high) at 14i (why do all these feel like they are at least 17i? Whenever I use them they feel like they should be but I'm not complaining).
I want to run through all of Leon's frames again for the sake of updating the wiki data (as well as see if there are any other things we've missed) because I forgot a lot of things since I gathered the data and I have been surprising myself at how relatively fast his single strikes really are.
I've been using 7P as my primary whiff punish a lot lately. 15i with a strong stun on NH that happens to Limbo if their current command leaves them back turned. 8K is the next best (one of his longest ranged strikes but it's a high) at 14i (why do all these feel like they are at least 17i? Whenever I use them they feel like they should be but I'm not complaining).
I want to run through all of Leon's frames again for the sake of updating the wiki data (as well as see if there are any other things we've missed) because I forgot a lot of things since I gathered the data and I have been surprising myself at how relatively fast his single strikes really are.
Here's something dirty.
6T against the wall leaves Leon at +46 (With or without the 69+ Damage).
Immediate charged 4K will leave you at +6 if they hold immediately on reaction (+11 if they Hold Low) but -25 if they just wakeup. The nice thing about this is that as long as you immediately start the charging you can never be mid kick held. Yeah it isn't enough to guarantee anything but if they see it and register the 4K a little slowly you can get yourself at the least a neutral throw. They wait on the hold long enough you can put them right back into the wall with Hi Counter 6T. The only problem with this is that if you wait too long on the 4K then you can be held.
A better one is immediate PP4P or PPP (both have same total frames). Can't be held, if if they do hold you are +7 or +12 (Low Hold) at the least (-24 if they just stand up). It's a very good scare tactic as most people who aren't expecting it will try and panic hold out of it but at the least you get a T.
You can PKK with the third delay based on their reaction. If they stand up and block PK you are at -8 (so don't tell anyone) but if they hold high or mid you can put them back into the blender (or Desert Falcon to end a match) or get the PKK wall hit into 3PP.
I'm just trying to find out nice things with walled 6T to vortex into walled 6T again. You can throw some OHs out after single strikes such as 6P or 8K. Nice thing about it is that Hi Counter 6T gets 103 Damage without a kaboom.
In the rare opportunity you get it, fully charged 236P ender against a wall PK > Wall Hit > 3PP. 70 Damage for a block. The K in PK isn't guaranteed but can only be held at fastest. The only thing guaranteed is P and only at 5 damage and +28-36. At least you can mix it up from P but if you land PK you are guaranteed further options.
PK is 2 in 1 only on Counter though (not in stun or Hi Counter sadly).
Based on how big a character's hitbox is a fully Charged 2H+K can get the followup K into 2T guaranteed in open space. Against the wall you are guaranteed a fully charged K followup into 3PP (57-62 damage before kabooms and based angle, a full hit seems to be hard to get because of Leon's forward motion).
6T against the wall leaves Leon at +46 (With or without the 69+ Damage).
Immediate charged 4K will leave you at +6 if they hold immediately on reaction (+11 if they Hold Low) but -25 if they just wakeup. The nice thing about this is that as long as you immediately start the charging you can never be mid kick held. Yeah it isn't enough to guarantee anything but if they see it and register the 4K a little slowly you can get yourself at the least a neutral throw. They wait on the hold long enough you can put them right back into the wall with Hi Counter 6T. The only problem with this is that if you wait too long on the 4K then you can be held.
A better one is immediate PP4P or PPP (both have same total frames). Can't be held, if if they do hold you are +7 or +12 (Low Hold) at the least (-24 if they just stand up). It's a very good scare tactic as most people who aren't expecting it will try and panic hold out of it but at the least you get a T.
You can PKK with the third delay based on their reaction. If they stand up and block PK you are at -8 (so don't tell anyone) but if they hold high or mid you can put them back into the blender (or Desert Falcon to end a match) or get the PKK wall hit into 3PP.
I'm just trying to find out nice things with walled 6T to vortex into walled 6T again. You can throw some OHs out after single strikes such as 6P or 8K. Nice thing about it is that Hi Counter 6T gets 103 Damage without a kaboom.
In the rare opportunity you get it, fully charged 236P ender against a wall PK > Wall Hit > 3PP. 70 Damage for a block. The K in PK isn't guaranteed but can only be held at fastest. The only thing guaranteed is P and only at 5 damage and +28-36. At least you can mix it up from P but if you land PK you are guaranteed further options.
PK is 2 in 1 only on Counter though (not in stun or Hi Counter sadly).
Based on how big a character's hitbox is a fully Charged 2H+K can get the followup K into 2T guaranteed in open space. Against the wall you are guaranteed a fully charged K followup into 3PP (57-62 damage before kabooms and based angle, a full hit seems to be hard to get because of Leon's forward motion).
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LOL wut?
Hi Counter only and requires a strike before hand, no Desert Falcon or standing Dervish Throw into this unfortunately.
You mean Leon can...
I swear this is the only time WRK into air throw is more optimal than 8PPP into air throw, 8PPP into air throw for the same lead up combo deals only 299 points.
You mean Leon can...
*orgasm*
Went over some of Leon's Power Launcher stuff for the first time in forever. Gonna post revisions/updates/whatever you want to call it here because this more or less is the go to thread for things. I don't think any of these were revised since the 5U patch where 8PP no longer wall splats (was that the second or third patch?).
Ceiling Hit Power Launcher while next to a wall.
PL > line up so opponent is directly between you and wall > 8PP > Air Throw. Not sure what I had before but it deals 122 raw (102 in stun, won't work if opponent is in CB).
For a CB opponent > PL > line up as above > 236P charged > wall hit > 3PP. 120 raw, 100 stun.
Open Space Ceiling
PL > Ceiling Hit > Run In > P+KT > T 137 Raw (117 stun). If you can get a breakable go for it but beware that it can be teched. Good Normal or Counter Hit and optimal damage for the situation. See Below for Hi Counter Hit.
Ceiling Hit near a breakable
PL > Ceiling Hit > Dash in > Air throw to breakable > optimal followup based on Hit Type and distance (Normal Hit, Close Range, etc.)
Hi Counter Stuff
Hi Counter Ceiling Hit PL > Dash Forward > P+K charged > CB.
Hi Counter PL Ceiling Hit next to wall > P+K charged > CB > Hold 3P (3P on Super Heavies) > Air Throw. 163 (160) raw.
Treat all characters from Light to Gen Fu as mid weight combos if you do this, WRK 66PP T won't work.
In open space the above sentence still applies.
If you throw someone into a breakable from a ceiling hit (if you are close enough) P+K charged for CB if they are against a wall.
Ceiling Hit PL > 3K > 7P puts opponent into his must guess setup. The only 2 in 1 that gets you an air throw will be 8PP(P) after a dash in. If you go for 66PP finish the string (66PPP). Only good on NH and you are feeling ballsy.
Notes about Ceiling Hits. If you allow an opponent to fall to the ground and then send them into a breakable the breakable will be treated as though it were a second breakable. This means that the hit can be teched. To prevent this you need to dash as needed and hit/throw your opponent into the breakable before they hit the ground.
Ceiling Hit Power Launcher while next to a wall.
PL > line up so opponent is directly between you and wall > 8PP > Air Throw. Not sure what I had before but it deals 122 raw (102 in stun, won't work if opponent is in CB).
For a CB opponent > PL > line up as above > 236P charged > wall hit > 3PP. 120 raw, 100 stun.
Open Space Ceiling
PL > Ceiling Hit > Run In > P+KT > T 137 Raw (117 stun). If you can get a breakable go for it but beware that it can be teched. Good Normal or Counter Hit and optimal damage for the situation. See Below for Hi Counter Hit.
Ceiling Hit near a breakable
PL > Ceiling Hit > Dash in > Air throw to breakable > optimal followup based on Hit Type and distance (Normal Hit, Close Range, etc.)
Hi Counter Stuff
Hi Counter Ceiling Hit PL > Dash Forward > P+K charged > CB.
Hi Counter PL Ceiling Hit next to wall > P+K charged > CB > Hold 3P (3P on Super Heavies) > Air Throw. 163 (160) raw.
Treat all characters from Light to Gen Fu as mid weight combos if you do this, WRK 66PP T won't work.
In open space the above sentence still applies.
If you throw someone into a breakable from a ceiling hit (if you are close enough) P+K charged for CB if they are against a wall.
Ceiling Hit PL > 3K > 7P puts opponent into his must guess setup. The only 2 in 1 that gets you an air throw will be 8PP(P) after a dash in. If you go for 66PP finish the string (66PPP). Only good on NH and you are feeling ballsy.
Notes about Ceiling Hits. If you allow an opponent to fall to the ground and then send them into a breakable the breakable will be treated as though it were a second breakable. This means that the hit can be teched. To prevent this you need to dash as needed and hit/throw your opponent into the breakable before they hit the ground.
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JAG THE GEMINI
Active Member
Very nice infos and videos. Thanks.
Dammit. Not close enough.
Pretty much figured out the timing and how to deal with this as well. All you have to do is Dash once with 66 then 28T. You dash just after your opponent has hit the helicopter when they appear to be smoking from the impact.
It's still his optimal PB combo from this anyway, just wish they were just a little closer to anything for a wall hit.
Pretty much figured out the timing and how to deal with this as well. All you have to do is Dash once with 66 then 28T. You dash just after your opponent has hit the helicopter when they appear to be smoking from the impact.
It's still his optimal PB combo from this anyway, just wish they were just a little closer to anything for a wall hit.
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I'm about to clean up a lot of this subforum by making a ton of new threads regarding specific parts of how he plays (such as stage interactions, breakables, Critical Burst, etc.) in the near future. It's gonna be easier to use than trying to dive around the threads as everything is scattered like crazy. This thread is the best place to start as most of the things he can do are covered here.
Welcome to the Strongest Army in the World. We hope you enjoy your time with us.
Welcome to the Strongest Army in the World. We hope you enjoy your time with us.
I began using Leon back from 2 Hardcore when I was 12. He was the first ai I had come across that had absolutely kicked my ass and I dropped everything I was doing to learn who he was and how to play him. Been a loyalist for him ever since (except in the first release of 5 where he wasn't in the game but I had no choice there).
Comes to about 13-14 years now.
Comes to about 13-14 years now.
:[[P+K]]: can beat out wake up kicks. Won one of my sets with it (Hi Counter bitch slap is so lovely).