Team Ninja Twitter

[Game Over]

As I mentioned in another thread, I think what could work is for all "normal" holds to be parries, and "expert" holds to be actual d.holds.

And to add to that, thinking of Jann Lee's Dragon Kick for instance, I think certain moves in the game with strong knockback properties (sending you flying into a wall on hit) should also be invulnerable to d.holds in the sense that a successful d.hold just goes into a parry animation rather than the actual hold. Or even just have the defending character sorta "evade" the attack, gaining either a small frame advantage or a return to neutral depending on the recovery of the attack.

This is an idea, I think, that could help change the pace of various matchups according to characters chosen, rather than universally having d.holds over-power the pace of every matchup

Also, characters like Bayman and Lei Fang, for instance, with character-specific adv. counters, would retain normal properties of their adv. counters against these moves.

 

[Black Dragon]

It's not a glitch, the transition is why the low holds had faster recovery, as returning to standing from a low hold made it impossible to neutral guard in similar time as the standing holds.

Still, the crouch needs to be able to dodge high attacks and block low attacks during its transition, not after it's done.

 

[MeanMrMustard]

The crouch animation, like I said earlier, is not instant. There is nothing wrong with the crouch. Certain strings like PK that are very quick between moves are not able to be ducked. If it could duck highs and block lows during transition then it would be an instant crouch, which it's not. Not sure if it'll work by try crouch dashing between the P and the K. Like I said before, if the crouch in DOA4 works exactly like VF5, then crouch dash allows you to reach crouching state in 1 less frame.

However, from my experience, going from standing to blocking low to actually block a low move seems pretty instant to me. Try to FSD down and then have your opponent do a low and you'll see what I mean.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Whoa, I sure missed a lot in two days.

Well, okay Dr Dogg, why do you not want throws to be breakable again? That just sounds preposterous. If I can break a 6 frame throw, then I should sure as hell at least get a reward for being such a quick shot and go into neutral.

Also, where's your Tekken scene at? Sounds like you're from Texas.

 

[Rikuto]

We talk a lot when there's actually stuff to talk about. S'true.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Well then do a podcast for two hours and pour your heart out.

While we're at it, I'd like the four point hold system because it'll prevent scrubs from abusing it. Hell make each hold full circle.

 

[Rikuto]

So what's YOUR stance on chickening a chicken's chicken Uncle?

leet battle of the reflexes, or retard slapping match?

 

[DrDogg]

Well, okay Dr Dogg, why do you not want throws to be breakable again? That just sounds preposterous. If I can break a 6 frame throw, then I should sure as hell at least get a reward for being such a quick shot and go into neutral.

Also, where's your Tekken scene at? Sounds like you're from Texas.

In any other fighting game, I would agree that throws need to be breakable. However, as of DOA4, the only universal form of guaranteed punishment is a throw. If you can break throws (in that situation), then you remove guaranteed punishment.

As I said, I'd prefer the ability to punish with an attack, so if that were added to DOA5, then I would like to see all throws be breakable. Although, given that DOA uses a block button, I'm perfectly okay with throws being breakable, but not on reaction, so long as you can buffer the break(s) while holding block (like SC).

I live in Phoenix, but I've played against most of the top Texas players throughout the years; EP, JOP, Jinkid, etc.

 

[Black Dragon]

I'd rather all throws are unbreakable on Hi-Counter only.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I asked my friend RyogaMasaki to translate this bit of text and here's what I got back. He also makes the note "That 'For example...' paragraph may be a bit off though, it still confuses me a bit." This is still a much better translation than an automated translator was able to provide us.

At the recent media event in San Francisco, a change in Dead or Alive 5 holds was announced. In addition to the orthodox 3 choices of lower, middle and upper, a middle-only 'Expert Hold' is introduced to all characters.

Because a distinct command is necessary for both punch and kick 'Expert Hold' uses difficult commands, but the damage and frame are greater than a standard throw. Thus it becomes important to understand the proper use of standard 'holds.'

For example, if your opponent attempts to strike with a 'power blow', the initial move is slow so it is chance for a 'Expert Hold.' It's a 'strike context' situation that takes a 'power blow' as well as a usual hold.

Also, in regards to the fighting system, the 'side step' is introduced. With a well-timed side step, a straight-line attack can be avoided no matter if it is high, low or middle. It feels like the fighting style is becoming closer to the style of DOA3's (which is called DOA 3.1 in North America).

In addition to 'guard' and 'hold,' this 'side avoiding' choice is an advantageous guard against straight-line attacks.

Certainly, the 'expert hold' is synonymous with Hayabusa's expert move 'Izuna Otoshi'. There are entirely new techniques for standard 'holds.'

 

[UncleKitchener]

edit: nevermind, DrDogg answered my question.

Okay, call me ignorant, but what's the difference between average holds and advance holds again? I only played DOA2.

So what's YOUR stance on chickening a chicken's chicken Uncle?

leet battle of the reflexes, or retard slapping match?

Hey man, two generations of my family were chicken farmers. You want my stance on chickening? Well, the good ones stay in cage while the fat ones go in the grill.

Not the perfect analogy, but I'm saying that chickens can be hard to catch but once you get a hold of em, they're pretty good on the dinner table.

What I'm saying is that chickens are great, just like the real thing.

In any other fighting game, I would agree that throws need to be breakable. However, as of DOA4, the only universal form of guaranteed punishment is a throw. If you can break throws (in that situation), then you remove guaranteed punishment.

As I said, I'd prefer the ability to punish with an attack, so if that were added to DOA5, then I would like to see all throws be breakable. Although, given that DOA uses a block button, I'm perfectly okay with throws being breakable, but not on reaction, so long as you can buffer the break(s) while holding block (like SC).

I live in Phoenix, but I've played against most of the top Texas players throughout the years; EP, JOP, Jinkid, etc.

Yes, I also prefer punishing with an attack, but that's probably just me because of my background and it feels more like I earned it. With guaranteed throws, it just feels like I just slapped on the table faster than the other guy. If moves don't have different properties on block except for a handful of em, then most moves just feels the same when you're on the blocking side.

I really like the SC throw break system, so if that ends up in DOA5, then I'll be really pleased with the outcome.

You played JOP? Man, that's nice. Wish I could play you, but I'm stuck in London and arcade scene here is pretty much dead and all the machines are fruities. Are you planning on going to Evo next year? I'm saving already, so maybe we can meet up.

 

[DrDogg]

I'd rather all throws are unbreakable on Hi-Counter only.

So... when I block an unsafe attack, you want there to be no guaranteed punishment at all? o_0

I asked my friend Damian Grove to translate this bit of text and here's what I got back. He also makes the note "That 'For example...' paragraph may be a bit off though, it still confuses me a bit." This is still a much better translation than an automated translator was able to provide us.

Makes sense to me. Sounds like 3-point hold system with two "expert holds", one for mid kick and one for mid punch. The expert hold requires a more difficult command (probably just two directions instead of one).

The "for example" paragraph seems to be stating that since power blows are slow to execute, it's the perfect time to use an expert hold since you know what's coming and have more time to react. They're saying that situations like these are better suited for expert holds, but you can also use a normal hold.

It also seems as though the classic holds are completely new animations (and possibly new properties -- parry instead of damage?), while the expert holds will be what we're accustomed to, like the Izuna Drop.

I like what we're hearing about the sidestep, but I'm concerned with what they're saying about holds. Unless I'm wrong, and expert holds are more difficult than just two directions instead of one, they seem to think that it'll be hard to use expert holds. We all know that competitive players will have no problems using expert holds if they're simply two directions instead of one. If that's the case, it doesn't change anything, because people will just use expert holds to get the same effects you'd get from normal holds in older games.

You played JOP? Man, that's nice. Wish I could play you, but I'm stuck in London and arcade scene here is pretty much dead and all the machines are fruities. Are you planning on going to Evo next year? I'm saving already, so maybe we can meet up.

The arcade scene here is dead as well. I'll be at Evo if I'm playing any of the games present. Right now the best outcome for that would be for Evo to include SC5, but there's no guarantee I'll still be playing SC5 by the time Evo comes around. We'll see how good the game is and how much of a local scene I have for it.

 

[Rikuto]

I like what we're hearing about the sidestep, but I'm concerned with what they're saying about holds. Unless I'm wrong, and expert holds are more difficult than just two directions instead of one, they seem to think that it'll be hard to use expert holds. We all know that competitive players will have no problems using expert holds if they're simply two directions instead of one. If that's the case, it doesn't change anything, because people will just use expert holds to get the same effects you'd get from normal holds in older games.

This is pretty much what I've been saying for a while now. It needs to be stressed to them that double direction holds, while certainly an appropriate notation for an expert hold, do not make it difficult. The window on these things needs to be very small.

 

[Berzerk!]

Yeah, holds should still observe the tightening of the window we've seen them show progression on from DOA4-DOAD.

That said, if Expert holds can only be done for mid attacks, that's a lot of the attacks in the game that simply cannot be expert held. So you're left with only the low-damage normal holds. I don't think we can say it won't change anything based on that - 50% of the applicable attacks don't work for expert holds!

 

[MASTER]

Im pretty sure there will be expert holds for highs and lows too. I only say that because The Trailer shows Ryu holding a high punch and goes into izuna and then later on in the trailer holds the same HIGH punch and doesn't do an izuna. That means the expert hold isnt just for mids in that current build at least. Also i think the middle ones might be talked about most because they might be the primary holds for super attacks?? not sure though. Just thought i should bring that up because i didn't see it mentioned earlier.

MASTER

 

[synce]

I'm only beginner Japanese but I think you guys have this wrong. It doesn't say anywhere that power blows require expert holds, and it certainly doesn't say "other moves" require them like some sites are reporting. In fact it says the opposite. After mentioning that power blows are especially susceptible to expert holds (due to telegraphing), the tweet reassures everyone that normal holds also work.

I mean think about it, it would be kind of lame if every power blow was mid, since they'd have to be because characters besides Bayman, Ryu, etc. only have mid expert hold.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Im pretty sure there will be expert holds for highs and lows too. I only say that because The Trailer shows Ryu holding a high punch and goes into izuna and then later on in the trailer holds the same HIGH punch and doesn't do an izuna. That means the expert hold isnt just for mids in that current build at least. Also i think the middle ones might be talked about most because they might be the primary holds for super attacks?? not sure though. Just thought i should bring that up because i didn't see it mentioned earlier.

MASTER

From what I gathered, the expert holds are universal to all characters at the mid level. Then, some characters will have high or low or both expert holds and some will not.

Either way, the information coming out is very confusing so I'm just going to wait and see, especially since they're toying with the system every day.

 

[Raansu]

Repost for MASTER/Sync and others to reread since its been buried from all the other posts and ppl seem to be missing it.

My friend is helping me translate these tweets and its only confusing me more. Like the expert holds it reads that all characters will have "mid expert holds" but it also says in another tweet that Busa's Izuna is an expert hold. So maybe this means that the "mid expert hold" is universal, and then specific characters get unique expert holds like the Izuna? Or like holds that originally gave launchers would now be expert holds? So maybe normal holds are working closer to a parry now?

It also says that power blows CAN be held by both normal and expert holds, contrary to what we originally thought that it could only be held by expert holds. Normal holds do less damage and all have different/new animations.

 

[DrDogg]

As much as I'd like DOA to play like Tekken or Soul Calibur, I understand that DOA5 will still need to play like DOA. I know counters/guessing will be a big part of the gameplay engine. What I'm hoping, is that this will only be the case at novice levels of play. Kind of like how Tekken characters have ~100 attacks, but at high levels you only use about 20 or so.

Right now you've got a 3-point counter system and some form of expert counter system. Let people use those just like in old DOA games, but minimize the damage and the hold window (4/7/20). Make the stun system the same as DOA3.1 or DOA4 (doesn't matter), but add more stuns to the game and add attacks that work around the stun and counter systems.

So the average DOA character will have say 70 attacks. 50 of those attacks should lead to the normal stun and be susceptible to the classic counter system. Of the remaining 20 attacks, 15 of them should cause one of three or four different stuns, which cannot be countered out of, but you also can't extend the stun (see below). The last five attacks should launch or knockback on normal hit and be uncounterable. Make them unsafe on block, make them limit the damage potential from the juggle, whatever has to be done to balance it, but they need to be viable in competitive play.

Toss in a few 2-in-1's, 3-in-1's and maybe even the rare 4-in-1 for good measure. You also shouldn't be able to counter off the wall OR you shouldn't be able to use wake-up kicks off the wall. It should be one or the other, but not both. I think both limitations would make the wall game too strong and high level play would be focused primarily on getting the opponent to the wall. I'd like the wall as a good damage option, but not a must for all characters.

Using this system, novice players can play DOA5 just like they played DOA2-4. However, competitive players have a variety of options to get around the old stun system and take the game to a higher level of play.

Potential Stun Examples:
- Normal stun (most common stun; caused by 55% of attacks): acts just like the stun system in whatever past DOA game you prefer.
- Limbo stun (caused by 15% of attacks): Acts similar to limbo stuns in DOA2U. You can't counter out of them, but you can slow escape to lessen the stun time.
- Stumble stun (caused by 10% of attacks): What we saw after certain attacks in DOA4. You can't counter out of them or use slow escape, but due to the distance between characters caused by the stumble animation, your attack options following this stun are limited.
- Double Over stun (caused by 5% of attacks): Similar to the crumple stun in Tekken; the opponent bends over, holding their stomach. You can't counter out of this stun, or slow escape, but you only get one hit before the opponent falls to the ground. You can use a 2-in-1 or 3-in-1 in this instance though. Any single-hit launchers used during this stun, will not launch very high, limiting juggle options.
- Knee stun (caused by 5% of attacks): The opponent falls to their knees, then slowly falls to the ground. You cannot counter or slow escape out of this stun, but due to the character falling to their knees, your attack options are limited. The opponent automatically falls to the ground after 2-3 hits are registered.

Note: Not all attacks cause stun, so the percentages will not add up to 100%.

 

[Rikuto]

You also shouldn't be able to counter off the wall OR you shouldn't be able to use wake-up kicks off the wall. It should be one or the other, but not both.

I think it should, personally. 3.1 didn't let you do either and it worked great. What it DID let you do is tech off the wall toward either side, and when you did your opponent completely lost his tracking unless he was specifically following you as you got off the wall. This kept you from being wall raped over and over again, and if he attacked pre-maturely he would go off kilter and you'd get a free combo on him. Even if he did follow you and continue to wail on you, more often than not you'd end up with such an angle of attack that the victim would bounce off the wall and hit the ground rather than splat on it a second time.

In fact it pretty much has to work that way. Why?

Because if you can counter off the wall, the wall serves no meaningful purpose. If you can wakeup kick off the wall, you're always at a disadvantage every time you get someone to the wall, and that's just bad gameplay. Bare in mind, not every character is going to have -awesome- wall combos, so this can severely screw over a lot of the cast.

If you simply remove invincible frames from the wakeup kicks to prevent this, you'll end up with a situation where people WILL get wall raped over and over again. It's lose-lose.