Community The Evolution of The Karate Master

[Tenryuga]

@Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion

You are the karate master.

 

[Zeo]

I know you aren't ignorant and are actually informed so you probably know what my arguments will be for these, but still I'm going to entertain them regardless, maybe you'll see differently but your concerns are ultimately valid.

Overall, I'm actually in favor of most of these changes. The issue I have is that if every one of them were to be added, it layers too much on repeated concepts. For example, you want better tools to combat SSing. Completely understandable. So, how about we give him a standard-ish anti-SS tool? Okay, we get 1P (similar to how you proposed it). Then you want 4P buffed. Then you want tracking added to other moves.

Even with the proposed changed to tracking, outside of 1P he still has an issue with consistent steppers. 4P's damage increase applies to 2P pressure and it being beaten out by i12 mids, as a tracking snuffer it still has issues with it's small hitbox whiffing against steppers close to Ein.

As far as tracking added to other moves, those are all string enders, all of which are either unsafe or semi safe on block, they simply make sense to track and should have already been added. Especially PKK considering both Hayate and Hitomi's variants of the move both track already.

Long story short, he doesn't become a step killing titan, but the things that already should track now do and we get a nice close range tracking tool as an alternative to 4P and a JAK killer vs Christie. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Then, there's an absolute wave of buffs that give him frame advantage out the ass. Why is a +2 crushing mid kick unholdable? I know you play Akira so you're probably used to seeing that kind of thing, but getting frame advantage off of so many different options at so many hit levels is crazy compared to what a lot of the rest of the cast has to offer, some of which have absolutely 0 reliable ways to achieve efficient frame advantage on block.

It's not really advantage out of the a** though. I mean. PPP and 6P+KP are +5 charges, but PPP has to be respected in order for the charge to get there which is still an issue, and P+KP is a 50/50.

Then you have 46K which is +2 and 214H+K which is +3. Those are potent enough to press a button but then you have to remember that this is Ein. He has no real pressure to speak of outside of these guard breaks and the new 1K2K which means he's pressing a button or two and his turn is over, or he's risking a throw. All the guard breaks do is add a degree of pressure to a character that otherwise is completely unable to put any on his opponent.

It doesn't make him a rushdown character, nor does it make his mixups any better, but it allows him to at least competently apply a bit of pressure to the opponent in the event he's stuck in CQC. As for 214H+K being unholdable. I reneged on it. I personally think it has plenty of shortcomings already, but no matter how much I argue no one is going to see it. I'm going to settle on this one. I can be jump kick held. White flag.

Then we have a bunch of other proposed buffs to his poking capacity. Understandable. But with all those added, does 6KK really need to be safe? While I'd be looking at it as more of a juggle/bound tool anyhow, as a poke I imagine it should function somewhat similar to Ryu's 3KK (obvious differences noted). Just add some more delay frames to the string to keep the first hit honest and the second hit is fine being unsafe as it is now.

There were a lot of different ideas for 6KK, it was a heavily discussed move. Deeper stun and longer delay were considered but ultimately the risk for this move outweighed the reward in any scenario. 6K free canceling would never be a good idea with all the delay in the world. The simplest thing to do was to create a safe, stable close range poke. If you delay it with the little you have and it hits, great little reward, but if it's blocked, your choice didn't become pointless.

Ultimately, it was a differ of opinions.

Similar concept with 8P and 8K. You would propose getting two relatively fast sitdown stuns on different hit levels, one that's +18 on fastest escape. I feel like +15 should be plenty for both as it would still guarantee a 4K launch even with your proposed NH KND nerf, plus getting the crouch status launch bonus from the sitdown. 94 points of damage is a lot of guaranteed damage.

While I've had many arguments for this move and other characters with similar tools, we discussed things and in the end we decided to bring 8P's advantage down to +15 same as 8K. This gives his weakest launcher in 4K and 3P lift stun. It could be better but it's damage and he's still getting good guaranteed damage with the juggle buffs. I hope that settles any further concerns on the dual sit down.

So yeah. I know what you're going to say: "Even if they added every proposed buff, he'd still be at disadvantage when paired with Christie and a lot of the other folk." And yeah, that's true. But I don't feel like making everyone into Christie is good for the game at all, and moving in that direction, even without full commitment, would serve to it's detriment rather than benefit, in my own personal opinion.

But overall, support the changes. If he got a lot of what you proposed and they re-worked his hitboxes, I'd be more than thrilled. But, be careful what you wish for. Sometimes when you ask TN for changes, they make the wrong ones. Best of luck. You'll need it.

Glad to have your support and reasonable opinion.

 

[TakedaZX]

@Nightpup

2. "'Changes to 4K" ... You want a 13 frame mid kick to be a hard knockdown on NH or an otherwise launcher on CH and HCH? No. That's simply TOO good. That would mean his third fastest move gives him instant pressure by putting his opponent in a situation where they're FORCED to tech up or eat a force tech, and then Ein is left at so much advantage that all his moves might as well be one frame. I have to disagree with this. I don't think any other character in the game has a fast move that puts an opponent in this situation."

There's multiple points to make here, starting with the fact that this is the way the move was in DOA4 when Ein was actually a factor and back then, the move did appear as we have stated now but there are large differences from then to now as well.

1. There was no sidestep in DOA4 so it had to be respected at R1F.
2. Stuns were more potent in the game so Ein could be played offensively, even with his limited moveset because unlike now...
3. 4K had a much greater launch height on CH+ so counter blowing someone off of you resulted in a good amount of damage... Plus standard life was lower Now its height has been lowered, even though back then the launch was still no better than 33K.

So with that on the table . Your fears are the NH hard knockdown giving him pressure that he maybe shouldn't obtain from that speed while also getting a free launch on CH+.

My proposal is to leave 4K's NH properties as they are now. With the damage buffs to the enders of his combos, this increases his NH 4K, 6KK combo from 45 to 46 which essentially would give him a similar situation to 236P and 46P as far as whiff punishing and keep out. Now he's back at neutral.

Also he doesn't have the close hit factor.

Some people only see the damage, but I see a path that gives him another viable whiff punish option that doesn't get an amazing pay off for being thrown out there but it gets him a solid amount of damage.

This is my view on the direction the move should take, but even with the forced tech situation he doesn't have the buttons to make the forced tech as scary as say Christie or Helena's.

As for 214K being turned into 214KK and 214K2K? I don't see 214K2K. Me and Zeo discussed it awhile ago though.

Ein isn't an offensive character (unfortunately) and as such, he shouldn't receive such mix-up oriented moves and strings. I'd DEFINITELY rather see it get split into two stuns though. 214K doesn't need to be anything fancy, just something like NH Kasumi's H+K and with 214KK your stun idea isn't bad either. So I can get behind it but 214K2K has to go.

Any questions?

 

[Zeo]

Evolution of the Karate Master UPDATED!!!

​

This will not be a common thing as it's been launched to TN already and with their potential eyes hovering over it, it simply cannot be changed on a dime anymore. We will be getting our ducks in a row very quickly over the course of the next day or so but these changes were necessary and are as follows.

8P: Advantage on sit down stun decreased from +26 to +23 (+15 Fastest SE)

While we mostly believe the move is fine as is, 94 points of guaranteed damage off of the move could create potential balancing issues and as to keep a degree of consistency we have reduced the stun to guarantee the same options as 8K. This also gives 8K the most potential damage as a guaranteed option but keeps both sit down's guaranteed threshold guess for the maximum possible potential damage.

214H+K: Advantage on GB increased from +2 to +3. Unholdable property removed.

This was heavily discussed and eventually became my personal decision. I can look at this move's short comings and present them over and over but no one will ever be able to see past it's unholdable property and tech jumping frame advantage. The better decision is to relent and remove it's unique property as an unholdable jumping mid kick. It can now be hi counter blown, stepped or jump kick held.

It's damage value is kept at 40 on NH (50 on CH) and GB advantage has been increased by one point to increase effectiveness on block.

P+K: Disavantage on block increased from -7 to -9. Jailing frames now end on the 21st frame of P+KP charge.

This was mostly just added to keep consistency with other CB's which are all mostly unsafe on block and additionally gives the opponent 2 extra frames to hold, step or press a button during the P+KP charge.

4K is currently under deliberation and will most likely be the final change to this letter.

 

[JayceeChris]

Hi, I've been away from the game and the website these days but I approve the project and the idea at 100%. However even if this would be really cool to see Ein gets all these adds, I think he doesn't need all of them and just need properties changes. But the thread is called "The Evolution" so I understand...

Something that would've been good to consider is reducing the pushback from CH 2K and CH (PP)2K. It will give Ein an other solid stun option.

I'll keep an eye on this thread. good job.

 

[TakedaZX]

Hi, I've been away from the game and the website these days but I approve the project and the idea at 100%. However even if this would be really cool to see Ein gets all these adds, I think he doesn't need all of them and just need properties changes. But the thread is called "The Evolution" so I understand...

Something that would've been good to consider is reducing the pushback from CH 2K and CH (PP)2K. It will give Ein an other solid stun option.

I'll keep an eye on this thread. good job.

The issue with this is that he would get an unshakable 4k launch and a free 3p extension off of a low as well as 46p/236p/3kk off the wall making him have one of the single best stun game lows... Ever. Now of course there's Helena's 2H+K but that move is like 21 frames or something. Is that fair?

Now I'd definitely take it... I would LOVE that but let's be real... But I'd say it's arguably a little too powerful for a low. These options aren't slow escapable btw.

 

[JayceeChris]

Well you're right this would be too much. Something then came to my mind.
If 6P+K return as i14 then Ein won't have to deal with the pushback since it will reach with no problem even at max slow escape. Ein will get an unslow escapable stun mix-up with 6P+K/3K and could still get a quick launch with 4H+K and a knock down/wall splat with 46P. This would be great.

 

[TakedaZX]

Yea and at the wall, all aforementioned mixups will still apply. He gets all of his wall launchers plus 3p is a stun option still. Only thing he lacks is a reliable mid kick stun at the wall. Oh well though... Hayate has the same problem. He has a follow up... It just doesn't give him easy mode guesses.

As for 6p+k... Yea it's good but even then it's not too much because he only gets on stun option. This is pretty legit I will admit.

With all of these changes he definitely becomes viable. I'd like to ask for keep out (on guard) buttons. Things like:

• 46P
  • GB (-5) to create space without giving him a way offense.
• 8K/1KK/6H+KK4K/4P2KK or 4PPK (If added)
  • GB (-4) to create space. The launch properties would remain as they are currently in this version while maybe making 66KKK consistent.

That's ultimately it. Once again, neither of these really give him true offense but the tools to keep his opponents out when struggling to get breathing room.

These aren't necessary though, it's just something that would make him really [good].

 

[Splendidsafe]

Honestly if I could give Ein something it'd be a QCB+P string (Think Jin Kazama, not Jean's block string). From the second hit he'd get 4 options. First, he could finish the string consisting of P and K inputs for a total of about 70 dmg on NH. Or he could do the first two hits into a non-guranteed low launch string. His 3rd option could be 2 hits into a powerful kick strike. The final option, which would be the most powerful, would be having the ability to cancel out of the string into a low dash (again think Jin Kazama). From there he could do WS K, 3P, or 33F+P. If Ein had a stance cancel he'd be much more viable in my opinion. He might even be put up a tier because the sheer pressure he'd get from cancelling mixups would be crazy.

 

[SweetSauceBoss]

Honestly if I could give Ein something it'd be a QCB+P string (Think Jin Kazama, not Jean's block string). From the second hit he'd get 4 options. First, he could finish the string consisting of P and K inputs for a total of about 70 dmg on NH. Or he could do the first two hits into a non-guranteed low launch string. His 3rd option could be 2 hits into a powerful kick strike. The final option, which would be the most powerful, would be having the ability to cancel out of the string into a low dash (again think Jin Kazama). From there he could do WS K, 3P, or 33F+P. If Ein had a stance cancel he'd be much more viable in my opinion. He might even be put up a tier because the sheer pressure he'd get from cancelling mixups would be crazy.

I always liked that idea of using 236 as a wavedashy kind of thing. His crouch dash in particular seems to be the smoothest of all the characters IMO. Having more viable options than 236P would be amazing. 236K seems really useless as it is now. Like REALLY useless :/

 

[TakedaZX]

Honestly if I could give Ein something it'd be a QCB+P string (Think Jin Kazama, not Jean's block string). From the second hit he'd get 4 options. First, he could finish the string consisting of P and K inputs for a total of about 70 dmg on NH. Or he could do the first two hits into a non-guranteed low launch string. His 3rd option could be 2 hits into a powerful kick strike. The final option, which would be the most powerful, would be having the ability to cancel out of the string into a low dash (again think Jin Kazama). From there he could do WS K, 3P, or 33F+P. If Ein had a stance cancel he'd be much more viable in my opinion. He might even be put up a tier because the sheer pressure he'd get from cancelling mixups would be crazy.

I originally thought of an idea similar to this as well. The issue is Ein is not Jin Kazama. Ein is definitely more of a spacing and punishment character and that's what we aimed for in this list. Give the stance to him, and he'll be able to rushdown effectively and space better than most characters in the game (after our buffs). This is a bit much, and just creates another Hayate overall.

I'll have to pass on that idea but I will say it'd have a sensible stories. This Ein could be a failed clone that was kept alive because his defective genes caused him to gain a more offensive personality with aggressive tendancies. Now his rushdown makes sense.

 

[Splendidsafe]

I originally thought of an idea similar to this as well. The issue is Ein is not Jin Kazama. Ein is definitely more of a spacing and punishment character and that's what we aimed for in this list. Give the stance to him, and he'll be able to rushdown effectively and space better than most characters in the game (after our buffs). This is a bit much, and just creates another Hayate overall.

I'll have to pass on that idea but I will say it'd have a sensible stories. This Ein could be a failed clone that was kept alive because his defective genes caused him to gain a more offensive personality with aggressive tendancies. Now his rushdown makes sense.

Hmm I understand where you are coming from. However, Ein's up close game is pure trash. Sure he has H+K, 3P, and the normal strings, yet he has to have distance to be truly viable. Now you could make the 2 hits -13 or something on block, and make it so he could get hit out of it (outside of CH, HC). A move like this would really improve his neutral game though. Hayate has way more tools than Ein ever will, so I disagree with that comparison. While it's good to buff Ein's current moves, giving him something to make the opponent respect his up-close game should be considered as paramount. It'd still differentiate him from Hitomi and give him a much needed buff as well.

 

[TakedaZX]

Hmm I understand where you are coming from. However, Ein's up close game is pure trash. Sure he has H+K, 3P, and the normal strings, yet he has to have distance to be truly viable. Now you could make the 2 hits -13 or something on block, and make it so he could get hit out of it (outside of CH, HC). A move like this would really improve his neutral game though. Hayate has way more tools than Ein ever will, so I disagree with that comparison. While it's good to buff Ein's current moves, giving him something to make the opponent respect his up-close game should be considered as paramount. It'd still differentiate him from Hitomi and give him a much needed buff as well.

It's not a bad comparison at all. Give him a stance out of 3K, 6K, and maybe 1K (even that new 3H+K that I would suggest) and then you've got the same mid to low mixups that Hayate has basically. Now he has Hayate's offense. Then on top of that he gets baller ass whiff punishment with 46P, 236P, 4K, and 6P+K? Then he has frame traps off of 236K, 214K, the charged guard break on the mid to mid string with his stance and then on top of that he's got the damage buffs? And then now that these players have to block, they have to worry about 33T free damage? AND his wall game?

The only difference between him and Hayate at that point is that he'll lack in offensive spacing but excel in defensive spacing. But he won't lose at close up anymore. He'll simply be able to rushdown and when he feels like it, space.

This is the monster we are creating. It's too strong.

 

[Splendidsafe]

It's not a bad comparison at all. Give him a stance out of 3K, 6K, and maybe 1K (even that new 3H+K that I would suggest) and then you've got the same mid to low mixups that Hayate has basically. Now he has Hayate's offense. Then on top of that he gets baller ass whiff punishment with 46P, 236P, 4K, and 6P+K? Then he has frame traps off of 236K, 214K, the charged guard break on the mid to mid string with his stance and then on top of that he's got the damage buffs? And then now that these players have to block, they have to worry about 33T free damage? AND his wall game?

The only difference between him and Hayate at that point is that he'll lack in offensive spacing but excel in defensive spacing. But he won't lose at close up anymore. He'll simply be able to rushdown and when he feels like it, space.

This is the monster we are creating. It's too strong.

Here's my problem with the Ein write up. Although I have no problem with Ein recieving any of these proposed buffs, they essentially turn him back into DOA 4 Ein. Ein is supposed to be a really basic, it's your fault if you lose, type character. This was stressed more so in 5U with his new nerfs. His keep away game only needs 6 P+K out of the proposed changes. And 8K would definitely be a nice addition a long with 4K being able to force wake up again. Outside of those additions, It looks (to me) like Ein would be given unecessary tracking, Hitomi, and Hayate moves to compensate for lack of cqc. Ein does not need moves from these two characters to progress further as a character. Giving him a 1 string cancel from QCB+P (not the 3K, 6K, 1K you talked about) would easily push his cqc potential up. In addition, it'd still leave him with most of the things Ein is known for now. If Ein is supposed to evolve as a character, he needs things which are unique to only him. Not copy and paste from better CQC characters.

 

[Zeo]

Here's my problem with the Ein write up. Although I have no problem with Ein recieving any of these proposed buffs, they essentially turn him back into DOA 4 Ein. Ein is supposed to be a really basic, it's your fault if you lose, type character. This was stressed more so in 5U with his new nerfs. His keep away game only needs 6 P+K out of the proposed changes. And 8K would definitely be a nice addition a long with 4K being able to force wake up again. Outside of those additions, It looks (to me) like Ein would be given unecessary tracking, Hitomi, and Hayate moves to compensate for lack of cqc. Ein does not need moves from these two characters to progress further as a character. Giving him a 1 string cancel from QCB+P (not the 3K, 6K, 1K you talked about) would easily push his cqc potential up. In addition, it'd still leave him with most of the things Ein is known for now. If Ein is supposed to evolve as a character, he needs things which are unique to only him. Not copy and paste from better CQC characters.

First off, if you're referring to Takeda's write ups and not EOTKM, then I retract everything I'm about to say.

Red: DOA4 Ein (As well as DOA2 and 3 Ein) was fine the way he was. Being a basic entry point character is about strengthening your fundamentals and playing solid for the win. Not about having to rely solely on fundamentals because your character has virtually no tools to work with. Hayate is the perfect example of a strong character with tools that is rewarded for good overall fundamentals Taking the best things Ein had away in 5U I'm pretty sure wasn't intentional to make him a better fundamental character (because it's not necessary) but rather, they weren't sure the direction they want to go with him or they just didn't care that much.

Blue: 4K and 6P+K are at the top of this list for a reason. They are his core tools and take the top priority to return to him. I'd take them before anything else. But now let's talk about other things.

- Unecessary tracking. Ok, adding tracking to moves that move him in a circular motion (like every other character in the game can already do) is not unecessary tracking. Tracking was added to the end of 66PK and PKK strings, other characters already have tracking on their PKK, Ein's just being normalized in this regard. In the case of 66PK, he already spins in a motion that should give tracking, in the case it hit, he'd still only be getting a knockdown. It makes sense and it's something he should already have, that's not unecessary. If every other character in the game (sans' a few) has tracking out of their ears, Ein can at least get it where he should.

Green: Let's touch on the 4 moves you're talking about.

1P: Literally everyone except Zack and Ein have this, it's not a copy paste. It's a tracking low crush that Ein sorely needs and it will evolve him.

1K2K: Technically it's from Hayate but considering he doesn't have it stand alone anymore (only in the form of PP2KK) it makes sense to give it to Ein and it's more of a hand-me-down rather than a copy pase He is the original practitioner of 1K, he's entitled to it's evolutions. He would be the only character in the game with this string, that makes him unique weather or not anyone ever had the move in the past. It's an evolution of 1K which originally belonged to him, ergo it's an evolution of him, and it's legit.

4PPK and 4P2KK: These are more of a stretch than anything but I do think Ein being the original owner of 4P, he's entitled to the most basic of this move's evolutions. While technically belonging to Hitomi, what makes the move different between the two is the NH properties. Hitomi need to catch step or land 8P on counter hit in order to get the stun but Ein gets his meat and potatoes on NH for all variants of his 4P string making it much scarier as a tool and gives a new degree of utility. Hitomi's lack of this is offset by her other options within 8P.

Simply put, he's not getting random Hitomi and Hayate moves to evolve, he's getting the things he already should have, and the things that make sense.

You say Ein needs things unique to him to evolve as a character, well in actuality everything added here with the exception of 1P is "unique" to him. Let's bullet point what's been added to him in EOTKM to evolve his character.

- Return of primary whiff punishers and strengthening of existing range tools.

- Stun > Launch juggle damage increase.

- Increased potential of stun launch and overall damage through guaranteed situations (8P/8K) allowing for stun launch (4K) or potential max damage (3P) through player choice and discretion.

- Necessary tracking added for consistency purposes with other characters.

- A legit high crushing low to increase step killing and defensive purposes.

- Safety on mid kick pokes for added viability without increasing stun game.

- Added new forms of semi pressure through guard breaks with light advantage instead of free canceling/string mixups.

So tell me, how is Ein not evolving?

 

[MajesticBlue]

As soon as I have some time I will be back to add my 2 cents. Ohhhh what a whole Lotta text *pick slide* unfortunately we all do know Ein needs some help. I am an advocate making small and few changes as possible to make him logical but effective.

 

[Splendidsafe]

First off, if you're referring to Takeda's write ups and not EOTKM, then I retract everything I'm about to say.

Red: DOA4 Ein (As well as DOA2 and 3 Ein) was fine the way he was. Being a basic entry point character is about strengthening your fundamentals and playing solid for the win. Not about having to rely solely on fundamentals because your character has virtually no tools to work with. Hayate is the perfect example of a strong character with tools that is rewarded for good overall fundamentals Taking the best things Ein had away in 5U I'm pretty sure wasn't intentional to make him a better fundamental character (because it's not necessary) but rather, they weren't sure the direction they want to go with him or they just didn't care that much.
-I agree

Blue: 4K and 6P+K are at the top of this list for a reason. They are his core tools and take the top priority to return to him. I'd take them before anything else. But now let's talk about other things.

- Unecessary tracking. Ok, adding tracking to moves that move him in a circular motion (like every other character in the game can already do) is not unecessary tracking. Tracking was added to the end of 66PK and PKK strings, other characters already have tracking on their PKK, Ein's just being normalized in this regard. In the case of 66PK, he already spins in a motion that should give tracking, in the case it hit, he'd still only be getting a knockdown. It makes sense and it's something he should already have, that's not unecessary. If every other character in the game (sans' a few) has tracking out of their ears, Ein can at least get it where he should.

Green: Let's touch on the 4 moves you're talking about.

1P: Literally everyone except Zack and Ein have this, it's not a copy paste. It's a tracking low crush that Ein sorely needs and it will evolve him.

1K2K: Technically it's from Hayate but considering he doesn't have it stand alone anymore (only in the form of PP2KK) it makes sense to give it to Ein and it's more of a hand-me-down rather than a copy pase He is the original practitioner of 1K, he's entitled to it's evolutions. He would be the only character in the game with this string, that makes him unique weather or not anyone ever had the move in the past. It's an evolution of 1K which originally belonged to him, ergo it's an evolution of him, and it's legit.
-I'll retract on my opinion of Hayate's 1K2K. It would be a great way to condition the opponent into receiving a low grab or 4P.

4PPK and 4P2KK: These are more of a stretch than anything but I do think Ein being the original owner of 4P, he's entitled to the most basic of this move's evolutions. While technically belonging to Hitomi, what makes the move different between the two is the NH properties. Hitomi need to catch step or land 8P on counter hit in order to get the stun but Ein gets his meat and potatoes on NH for all variants of his 4P string making it much scarier as a tool and gives a new degree of utility. Hitomi's lack of this is offset by her other options within 8P.
-This is essentially copying from Hitomi. The properties may have been reworked to fit Ein's playstyle, however these are the exact same strings Hitomi has. Might as well give him a variant of her 3KP4PP too...


Simply put, he's not getting random Hitomi and Hayate moves to evolve, he's getting the things he already should have, and the things that make sense.

You say Ein needs things unique to him to evolve as a character, well in actuality everything added here with the exception of 1P is "unique" to him. Let's bullet point what's been added to him in EOTKM to evolve his character.

- Return of primary whiff punishers and strengthening of existing range tools.
-Outside of 6P+K his whiff punishers are solid. Ein is one of the best keep out characters in the game. He does not need anything besides 4P+K and 4K. What he lacks is not solid punishers but cqc moves. Remember, if it's not broke don't fix it.

- Stun > Launch juggle damage increase.
-I disagree. Ein already hits like a truck. Two well placed lvl. 2 or lvl. 3 thresh-hold launch stuns could easily take off half a life bar.

- Increased potential of stun launch and overall damage through guaranteed situations (8P/8K) allowing for stun launch (4K) or potential max damage (3P) through player choice and discretion.
-You're referring to his 8K so I agree there.

- Necessary tracking added for consistency purposes with other characters.
-Unecessary if he has a proper cancel string used to strengthen his already decent tracking options. More is less, especially for Ein.

- A legit high crushing low to increase step killing and defensive purposes.
-Honestly on i'm on the fence about this, so I won't comment.

- Safety on mid kick pokes for added viability without increasing stun game.
-I agree.

- Added new forms of semi pressure through guard breaks with light advantage instead of free canceling/string mixups.
-Although I like your idea of cancelling P+k P into H, higher guard break advantages on top of that would be overkill. It'd go like this. I feint=you counter=HC 33 grab. I follow through=you block=I can OH grab you if you aren't a strike character or don't have a crushing move.

So tell me, how is Ein not evolving?

I am not saying through your requested list of changes that Ein is not evolving. I am saying, however, that Ein needs his own set of moves exclusive only to him. Imagine a reworked parry system only usable by Ein. He would keep his normal counters, and like Akira, have his own brand of parries (minus crumple stun). The catch would be that he could have the options I proposed earlier (minus the dash cancel as it would be useless). Or a combo throw into a stun. Things like this stray away from how Ein used to be in DOA 3 and 4, and allow him to become something new. I understand a lot of Ein players are salty he got nuke-nerfed in 5U (me especially), but that's in the past. The question should not be "how do we make him like he was in 3/4" rather "what moves can he get to help utilize his other properties?" Like I said, if TN follows through and accepts your changes that'd be fantastic. Logically, however, Ein only needs a few new moves along with the stuff I specified.

 

[HoodsXx]

I am not saying through your requested list of changes that Ein is not evolving. I am saying, however, that Ein needs his own set of moves exclusive only to him. Imagine a reworked parry system only usable by Ein. He would keep his normal counters, and like Akira, have his own brand of parries (minus crumple stun). The catch would be that he could have the options I proposed earlier (minus the dash cancel as it would be useless). Or a combo throw into a stun. Things like this stray away from how Ein used to be in DOA 3 and 4, and allow him to become something new. I understand a lot of Ein players are salty he got nuke-nerfed in 5U (me especially), but that's in the past. The question should not be "how do we make him like he was in 3/4" rather "what moves can he get to help utilize his other properties?" Like I said, if TN follows through and accepts your changes that'd be fantastic. Logically, however, Ein only needs a few new moves along with the stuff I specified.

The moves you suggested just don't fit Ein's style, the thing with TN is that they want their characters to play and feel like their respective martial art they are using in DOA. The moves you suggested have no such relevance, so frankly TN wouldn't bat an eye at it. It's the sad truth... But it's how TN does their shit from what it looks like. Hence why none of the characters have anything "out of the ordinary" in their movesets for the most part, same goes for Ein. Now, of course, they probably could've delved into his martial art more thoroughly and picked out some moves to give him and incorporate that into his moveset but so far they've done no such thing. Here's hoping EOTKM gets some recognition though.

 

[JAG THE GEMINI]

Damn, i really admire this "open letter" to Tecmo Koei.

I wasn´t around here for some time because, let´s face it, Ein still kinda sucks in DOA5U and since HE IS THE ONLY CHARACTER I REALLY STILL CARE FOR made me quite the game.

In short... DOA4 Ein(even if he was unsafe as "shit")>>DOA5U Ein.

There are many obvious reasons why that is so that where already posted that i won´t have to write anything else about this topic. I might add to all those change ideas that if 6KK stays as unsafe as it is, it should get a mix up variation, like Hitomis 6K2K. That would be a wonderful way for Ein to force mix up on the opponents now that he has lost so many good moves that ´caused a stun on normal hit(6P+K, 2H+K, 1K6P2K).

Damn i wish i could hope for a better and DEFINITIVE DOA5 version of Ein in Last Round, but my hopes are actually almost gone.

 

[Zeo]

-This is essentially copying from Hitomi. The properties may have been reworked to fit Ein's playstyle, however these are the exact same strings Hitomi has. Might as well give him a variant of her 3KP4PP too...

Not even remotely the same thing. Hitomi and Ein have two completely different 3Ks with completely different uses both in neutral or in stun.

4P and 8P on the other hand are moves that they both share with the exact same followups, the question is why is one character getting more options out of the exact same move? Hitomi is a mixup character obviously so that's understandable, which is why Ein only gets the most basic of the move's new mixups. You can complain that it's copying, but in that case, take away Hitomi's 236P, 46P, PP6PK and a whole lot more as she's "copying" just about half of Ein's moveset with improvements to boot. When all those things are removed, I'll change my notion on Ein's 4P additions.

Plenty of characters share the same moves already, I don't think this in particular is that big an issue. Especially when the string was originally his to begin with, and I will continue to stress, he is entitled to the improvements, he is the original DOA Karate character.

-Outside of 6P+K his whiff punishers are solid. Ein is one of the best keep out characters in the game. He does not need anything besides 4P+K and 4K. What he lacks is not solid punishers but cqc moves. Remember, if it's not broke don't fix it.

All I really meant by that was making 4H+K -8 on block as that's his only other whiff punisher that was changed. Ein is only one of the best keepout characters with 6P+K and 4K returning to as they are. Otherwise run up and block and Ein can't do squat. All of his whiff punishers are unsafe except for 46P and P+K (which is never seeing use). He can get a hit in if he makes a good read, but a good player is getting in, and they're not going to take very long doing it, especially if they have range and whiff punishing tools like him.

-I disagree. Ein already hits like a truck. Two well placed lvl. 2 or lvl. 3 thresh-hold launch stuns could easily take off half a life bar.

Just no. At level 1 threshold he's getting 73/80/78/89 for each respective stun launch at max potential, that's slightly above average if not dead average. Any threshold above that and he's losing out to a fair group of other characters. If "Ein is hitting like a truck", he's playing the stun game which he's not good at and your opponent just sucks at making reads. The fact that you mentioned level 3 is almost comedic, unfortunately. He's never getting there vs a good opponent aside from the occasional CB.

And for the record, a two level 2 or 3 combos from most of the cast is half a life bar or more (Akira is taking 2/3rds of your health from 2 level 1 threshold combos actually...) only difference, about 70% of the cast is better getting there than Ein and have better ways of getting that initial stun.

-Unecessary if he has a proper cancel string used to strengthen his already decent tracking options. More is less, especially for Ein.

A cancel string doesn't suit Ein, he's never been that type of character. Giving him unique tools to him is a good idea but that's not the way to go. He's always been a whiff punishing and stun > launch character and everything in EOTKM strengthens that primarily.

As for "already decent" tracking options, what ones are you referring to? The i13 crushable short range high punch (with all unsafe followups) that's beaten out by jabs and mids of the same speed due to it's low damage? The telegraphed i23 low kick that's never getting thrown out in neutral expecting a step because you're basically asking to be counter blown and he has no form of frame advantage to make you respect it?The 20 frame unsafe mid kick launch? LOL.

All he has here is H+K, which while decent, is i18 so it's not that great of a tool in neutral or CQC unless spacing and both followups are negated by crouch blocking. Additionally considering it's his only form of legitimate tracking aside from the unreliable 4P, it's prone to mid kick holds from opponents that have a read on you.

More is less in this case though. Which is why we only wanted tracking on PKK (Which nearly every other character with a PKK or KK already has) and his 66PK finishers which finish in a circular motion and should already track. They grant a knockdown at best so it's not easy mode tracking, but it is something he should have.

I'll agree that a lot of characters have more tracking than they need, but we'll stop pushing for Ein's reasonable tracking additions when everyone else in the game gets their easymode in string tracking taken away and has to do what he does in every single match.

-Although I like your idea of cancelling P+k P into H, higher guard break advantages on top of that would be overkill. It'd go like this. I feint=you counter=HC 33 grab. I follow through=you block=I can OH grab you if you aren't a strike character or don't have a crushing move.

I'm assuming you read through all of EOTKM. Rather I hope so because you'd know the advantage ends there at +5. Let's look at everything he has, I'm doing this only because you said "higher guard break advantages on top of that would be overkill" which P+KP is actually being reduced by 4 points from what it is now. Now let's see.

236K - i30 Jumping Mid Kick = +1
46K - i20 High Kick = +2
Running H+K - i23 Jumping Mid Kick = +2
4P+K - i33 Mid Punch = +3
214H+K - i23 Jumping Mid Kick = +3
PPP Charge - i27 Mid Punch = +5
P+KP Charge - i27 Mid Punch = +5
7P - i30 High Punch = +13

It looks like he's peppered with advantage, but every single one of these strikes has over 20 frames of startup, can be sidestepped, held (exceptions = 46K, 214H+K, Run H+K) and only add up to 5 points of advantage on to a character with few options for mixups, pressure and 0 options for string canceling. 7P is worthless and shouldn't even be discussed for reasons you should already know if you play Ein.

The reason why this advantage is ok for Ein is because it's his only genuine source of pressure outside of 1K2K. Any other buttons are disrespectful as you know now. This is how Ein becomes unique compared to other characters, specializing in GB 50/50s in place of string pressure during his offensive turn. That combined with his whiff punishing and stun launching capabilities makes him a complete and strong character but also with his own unique playstyle not mimicked by anyone except possibly Hayate (which.. in hindsight, should make sense.)

Now to touch on P+KP. Your concerns on this move are understandable which is why it was carefully balanced. The opponent is able to strike, step, hold or grab on the 21st frame of the charge and the feint carries 15 frames of recovery. The Ein player must commit to the grab or the strike which turns this pressure into a 50/50 guess. Eating a NH button or a grab by an opponent expecting the feint, getting the CH blow on them if you went for the punch. There are tons of possibilities and it opens a door for a lot of shenanigans. I'll admit this move deviates from Ein's character more than any other just from the amount of yomi and mind games involved, but I'd like to think it gets a pass because the pressure is primarily in the mind and it acts as a GB from first glance.

I am not saying through your requested list of changes that Ein is not evolving. I am saying, however, that Ein needs his own set of moves exclusive only to him. Imagine a reworked parry system only usable by Ein. He would keep his normal counters, and like Akira, have his own brand of parries (minus crumple stun). The catch would be that he could have the options I proposed earlier (minus the dash cancel as it would be useless). Or a combo throw into a stun. Things like this stray away from how Ein used to be in DOA 3 and 4, and allow him to become something new. I understand a lot of Ein players are salty he got nuke-nerfed in 5U (me especially), but that's in the past. The question should not be "how do we make him like he was in 3/4" rather "what moves can he get to help utilize his other properties?" Like I said, if TN follows through and accepts your changes that'd be fantastic. Logically, however, Ein only needs a few new moves along with the stuff I specified.

You're actually being a bit hypocritical here. Before you said that the changes turn Ein back into DOA4 Ein (which they don't btw, there were no guarantees or real frame advantage on block in 4) and that the nerfs in 5U stressed that he was supposed to be a bare bones fundamentals character, but then you speak of adding things like parries and string cancel mixups which are completely left field out of his character when 90% of the changes in EOTKM more or less fit with the current aspect of his character and strengthen his foundation more than anything.

Now, there's nothing wrong with having your own view on what he needs. The idea for a parry is cool, string canceling is certainly different for him but... it isn't the "logical" choice. At least, not for DOA5 *hint hint*. Evolution of the Karate Master is about optimizing his current tools and playstyle for suitability in a high level environment as well as adding a few changes that allow him to compete in foreign areas with a degree of comfort-ability without them becoming his forte.

But for the record, with these changes, Ein is unlike anything he's ever been before. This isn't DOA2 Ein, 3 Ein, 4, 5U or even 5 Last Round Ein. This is The Karate Master.