Community The Evolution of The Karate Master

[Splendidsafe]

"4P and 8P on the other hand are moves that they both share with the exact same followups, the question is why is one character getting more options out of the exact same move? Hitomi is a mixup character obviously so that's understandable, which is why Ein only gets the most basic of the move's new mixups."

• Precisely, so why ask the question? Hitomi should always be better than Ein.

"All of his whiff punishers are unsafe except for 46P and P+K (which is never seeing use)."

• What Ein player does not use 46P or P+K? With 6+K and 4K returning to their original status, Ein would have a really strong keep out game. Anything else (outside of maybe making qcf+p safe) is still too much.

"Otherwise run up and block and Ein can't do squat."

• ...Outside of reaction-grabing into an OH or 33 grab, then K. backdashing to start zoning again. You could try that. If your opponent won't respect your space, you condition them with grabs.

"A cancel string doesn't suit Ein, he's never been that type of character."

• He's never really been much of a character after Hitomi's introduction. Ein's always been cast in the shadow of Hitomi as a "worse Hitomi". Giving him something extra ordinary would help cast him as "Ein" not "Hitomi wannabe".

"As for "already decent" tracking options, what ones are you referring to? The i13 crushable short range high punch (with all unsafe followups) that's beaten out by jabs and mids of the same speed due to it's low damage? The telegraphed i23 low kick that's never getting thrown out in neutral expecting a step because you're basically asking to be counter blown and he has no form of frame advantage to make you respect it?The 20 frame unsafe mid kick launch? LOL."

• I agree with you on how terrible his 1h+k is, which is why I vouched for the Hayate string you mentioned. I'm confused as to what 20 frame mid kick launch you mentioned. It's probably 33K but throwing that out as a means of stopping SS is ill-advised. Please clarify.
• Also, all of this could be avoided with a tracking P string cancel. It'd make your opponent respect your cqc more and not try to crush your SS options. Therefore you could use your tracking moves to their fullest potential.

"I'll agree that a lot of characters have more tracking than they need, but we'll stop pushing for Ein's reasonable tracking additions when everyone else in the game gets their easymode in string tracking taken away and has to do what he does in every single match."

• Ein isn't like everyone else. TN will not change the entire cast of LR just to please Ein fans. I hope you don't mean this. It's irrational.

"7P is worthless and shouldn't even be discussed for reasons you should already know if you play Ein.'

• Wall baiting into a 3P, 9K or HC 33 H+P??? I do it all the time against the wall. Often times people expect a low string or p string. Regardless of skill level. I won't use it against fast characters as he'll just get out mashed as usual.

"This is how Ein becomes unique compared to other characters, specializing in GB 50/50s in place of string pressure during his offensive turn."

• Correct me if i'm wrong, yet the majority of Ein's GBs are mids yes? What would stop me from just holding you every time you attempt a GB? Maybe they patched him over night while I was sleeping and gave him more k guard breaks beside 46 K, 3H+K and 6 H+k,k,4 k (though I forget if the 6 H+k,k,f k guard breaks; rarely throw it out).
• I will vouch for his k string enders gaining GB properties instead of tracking. That'd be much better pressure (and mind game) wise.

"You're actually being a bit hypocritical here. Before you said that the changes turn Ein back into DOA4 Ein (which they don't btw, there were no guarantees or real frame advantage on block in 4) and that the nerfs in 5U stressed that he was supposed to be a bare bones fundamentals character, but then you speak of adding things like parries and string cancel mixups which are completely left field out of his character when 90% of the changes in EOTKM more or less fit with the current aspect of his character and strengthen his foundation more than anything."

• As i've said before, Ein is a worse version of Hitomi. He has worse strings, worse grabs, no parry, worse mix ups etc. etc. Therefore giving him something outside of strengthing his bare-bones moveset should not be neglected. Before Hitomi recieved her parry I would have never considerd giving Hitomi such an addition. Now she has a parry which could turn the match in your favor if used right. Ein should have something unique which could turn the tide of a battle; not dozens of buffs for a lackluster, incomplete moveset. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it'll still be a pig.

"But for the record, with these changes, Ein is unlike anything he's ever been before. This isn't DOA2 Ein, 3 Ein, 4, 5U or even 5 Last Round Ein. This is The Karate Master."

• The "Karate Master" will always be secondary to Hitomi, as it should be. Otherwise there would be no reason to have him in the game. Take that as you will.

 

[TakedaZX]

Hitomi should not be stronger than Ein. She should have better pressure and stun game mix up. Ein should receive more damage for a successful guess seeing as he doesn't have as potent tools to cause the opponent to make a mistake.

This is the goal. That should be the goal seeing as he is a passive zoning character. Not giving him a mid punch string to promote rushdown.

 

[Zeo]

Now things are starting to make sense. I'll end things here. And I'l be shorter than usual.

"4P and 8P on the other hand are moves that they both share with the exact same followups, the question is why is one character getting more options out of the exact same move? Hitomi is a mixup character obviously so that's understandable, which is why Ein only gets the most basic of the move's new mixups."

• Precisely, so why ask the question? Hitomi should always be better than Ein.

This statement pretty much puts the nail in this convo's coffin. I thought at first it was simply the difference in character type that caused you to disagree, but If you think that one character should be undoubtedly stronger than the other as a rule, you're not advocating balance to begin with, and this argument is pointless.

"All of his whiff punishers are unsafe except for 46P and P+K (which is never seeing use)."

• What Ein player does not use 46P or P+K? With 6+K and 4K returning to their original status, Ein would have a really strong keep out game. Anything else (outside of maybe making qcf+p safe) is still too much.

I was referring solely to P+K due to it's slow speed, short range, unsafe/linear followup and abysmally slow guard break charge. It has it's uses, but it's certainly not keeping anyone out. And all he needs is those 2 added to their original status. My point was you act like Ein is this keepout monster that can force whiffs and keep the opponent out forever when a player with solid spacing themselves (Like Master) can easily turn the tide on Ein.

Otherwise run up and block and Ein can't do squat."

• ...Outside of reaction-grabing into an OH or 33 grab, then K. backdashing to start zoning again. You could try that. If your opponent won't respect your space, you condition them with grabs.

That does work, but that also depends on your reactions as well as your and your opponent's skill level. You make it sound like people are just going to run up and give Ein free grabs. Master gets plenty of run ins because you don't expect it when he does.... yeah I'm done here too, actually.

"A cancel string doesn't suit Ein, he's never been that type of character."

• He's never really been much of a character after Hitomi's introduction. Ein's always been cast in the shadow of Hitomi as a "worse Hitomi". Giving him something extra ordinary would help cast him as "Ein" not "Hitomi wannabe".

Ok. That's your point of view. So there's nothing really to argue against. Even if it's not true for the most part but I'd be wasting my breath trying to debate.

"As for "already decent" tracking options, what ones are you referring to? The i13 crushable short range high punch (with all unsafe followups) that's beaten out by jabs and mids of the same speed due to it's low damage? The telegraphed i23 low kick that's never getting thrown out in neutral expecting a step because you're basically asking to be counter blown and he has no form of frame advantage to make you respect it?The 20 frame unsafe mid kick launch? LOL."

• I agree with you on how terrible his 1h+k is, which is why I vouched for the Hayate string you mentioned. I'm confused as to what 20 frame mid kick launch you mentioned. It's probably 33K but throwing that out as a means of stopping SS is ill-advised. Please clarify.
• Also, all of this could be avoided with a tracking P string cancel. It'd make your opponent respect your cqc more and not try to crush your SS options. Therefore you could use your tracking moves to their fullest potential.

At least that's been discussed before.

"I'll agree that a lot of characters have more tracking than they need, but we'll stop pushing for Ein's reasonable tracking additions when everyone else in the game gets their easymode in string tracking taken away and has to do what he does in every single match."

• Ein isn't like everyone else. TN will not change the entire cast of LR just to please Ein fans. I hope you don't mean this. It's irrational.

The fact that you really thought I meant that everyone else should be nerfed to make things fair is nonsensical in an of it'self. I was making a point. I'm pushing things that make Ein like everyone else in an area he should be in, your rebuttle is simple. "He shouldn't be like everyone else, he should be worse" that's not being unique, that's being gimped.

"7P is worthless and shouldn't even be discussed for reasons you should already know if you play Ein.'

• Wall baiting into a 3P, 9K or HC 33 H+P??? I do it all the time against the wall. Often times people expect a low string or p string. Regardless of skill level. I won't use it against fast characters as he'll just get out mashed as usual.

That kills a lot of your arguement considering most of the top and commonly used characters are fast. But despite that, it's an alright tool at the wall considering it guarantees P there, but throwing something like that out is assuming Ein is getting the respect to do it, which 90% of the time is not, or at least should not be happening. It's 30 frames and telegraphed, your opponent is letting you do it in most cases. It has a use every now and again if you're feeling lucky, otherwise, nothing to see here.

"This is how Ein becomes unique compared to other characters, specializing in GB 50/50s in place of string pressure during his offensive turn."

• Correct me if i'm wrong, yet the majority of Ein's GBs are mids yes? What would stop me from just holding you every time you attempt a GB? Maybe they patched him over night while I was sleeping and gave him more k guard breaks beside 46 K, 3H+K and 6 H+k,k,4 k (though I forget if the 6 H+k,k,f k guard breaks; rarely throw it out).
• I will vouch for his k string enders gaining GB properties instead of tracking. That'd be much better pressure (and mind game) wise.

Nothing in 6H+K guard break. As of now, 46K is an unholdable high and 7P is a high punch and 2KK is a high kick, outside of that he has guard break mid punches, no mid kicks. The guard breaks in EOTKM give him a reasonable GB on every hit level except low, so if you're getting held throwing out the same GB out of the half a dozen he has, it's your own fault.

K string finishers getting GB would be overpowered assuming they had any form of advantage (and advantage is the only way you're pressuring as Ein.). Anything past -1 and your opponent is free to press a button, so I fail to see where pressure comes into play. I guess being a neutral GB on block would be an interesting idea, but it wouldn't replace tracking, as it needs to happen regardless.

"You're actually being a bit hypocritical here. Before you said that the changes turn Ein back into DOA4 Ein (which they don't btw, there were no guarantees or real frame advantage on block in 4) and that the nerfs in 5U stressed that he was supposed to be a bare bones fundamentals character, but then you speak of adding things like parries and string cancel mixups which are completely left field out of his character when 90% of the changes in EOTKM more or less fit with the current aspect of his character and strengthen his foundation more than anything."

• As i've said before, Ein is a worse version of Hitomi. He has worse strings, worse grabs, no parry, worse mix ups etc. etc. Therefore giving him something outside of strengthing his bare-bones moveset should not be neglected. Before Hitomi recieved her parry I would have never considerd giving Hitomi such an addition. Now she has a parry which could turn the match in your favor if used right. Ein should have something unique which could turn the tide of a battle; not dozens of buffs for a lackluster, incomplete moveset. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it'll still be a pig.

You need to find a better term to use. This pig was the best character in the game he debuted in, a contender in DOA3 and still a strong opponent in DOA4. The problem wasn't just every other character evolving and growing, but him consistently growing weaker in each game. Frankly speaking, say what you want about his "lackluster, incomplete moveset" but he already had everything he needed to win. He lost that in 5U which is the entire point of this letter. He's no pig, he's always been a wolf with incredible potential who's had his claws clipped off in this last installment.

8P/8K... P+KP, a well placed 6P+K, if these things can't turn the tide of a battle... actually, my patience has run out again.

"But for the record, with these changes, Ein is unlike anything he's ever been before. This isn't DOA2 Ein, 3 Ein, 4, 5U or even 5 Last Round Ein. This is The Karate Master."

• The "Karate Master" will always be secondary to Hitomi, as it should be. Otherwise there would be no reason to have him in the game. Take that as you will.

That told me everything I needed to know. Clearly our views on this character are very different and in your eyes he doesn't to be on par with Hitomi or really need to be a good character at all because there would be no reason to have him in the game if that was the case for whatever reason. But as odd as your opinion and view on this character may be, I'll leave it be. It's nice to know that if nothing on this list were to be implemented and he ends up the same pushover that he is now in Last Round, at least someone will be content because he's apparently supposed to be like that in your eyes. While I have to respect your opinion, I'm done entertaining it.

Cheers.

 

[TakedaZX]

In other news. As an alternative to 8k's sitdown stun, I'm opening a new claim as a back up if TN won't go for it.

8K. Currently this move is and interesting mix-up and move to look at. 23i raw, sit down on NH that is a bit difficult to follow up on at some ranges but on CH+, It gets an exceptional reward and in combos it carries a specific unique juggle that he's always carried with him. (4h+k, 1k6pk).

In this new edition, I've been very excited to use it... But with Ein's lacking move set and properties, I came to the conclusion that the move could create one more situation for himself.

As a mix up, to get a truly good reward, he has to drive threshold. In critical lvl 1, his 66kkk is stance dependent making it a liability making his only true options 46p and 236p which don't do much damage at all.

My vote is to make this a safe launcher. At -4 (at the most -6), this move could work as keep out for him when trying counter pressure his opponent so that he can create space and possibly get back in his comfort zone.

Any objections or concerns? Let me know here.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

How about this everyone, what if Ein's moveset is evolved around one of the Philosophies of Karate?

Bare with me while I say and explain this. Each Martial Art and Fighting Form has always been built, developed, and evolved based on the Philosophy of the practitioner. Throughout history, fighters and combatants that practice Martial Arts had always a core reason that guided their path to mastery.

If you think about it, each character has their own reason and Philosophy on practicing their Martial Art.

*Jann Lee studied Jeet Kune Do in order to be The Greatest Fighter in History

*Bass uses Wrestling to Ensure Tina's Safety

*Brad Wong uses Zui Quan(Drunken Fist) to Find The Wine named Genra

*Zack studied Muay Thai so that he can Be Rich and Famous

What I'm saying is, Ein doesn't need to do the same Karate style as Hitomi or have to copy any of her movesets. Ein can be given a entirely different style of Karate based on his Personality and Confident Attitude.

There are many Karate Styles that have many aggressive and pacifistic philosophies

Shitoryu's Five-way spirit

One- Determination. Never forget the spirit of first beginning.
One- Morality. Never neglect courtesy and etiquette.
One- Development. Never neglect effort.
One- Common sense. Never lose common sense.
One- Peace. Never disturb harmony.

Dojo Kun

One- Seek perfection of character.
One- Be faithful.
One- Endeavor to excel.
One- Respect others.
One- Refrain from violent behavior.

Yo Riu Bi


Technique should be useful (Yo),
Have flowing rhythm of movement (Riu),
From the combination should come (Bi) or Gale

Karate spirit is arranged by body action and moved by hand.


And there are many others, which philosophy do you guys think is best suited for Ein?

 

[Number 13]

If anything Hitomi should be given the new Karate style considering Ein was the one that originally had the old fighting style.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

That is true.

But remember, Ein ceased being a Story Character after Hayate was introduced. Semantically, Hitomi's place and evolution in DOA has no consequence then and now.

What we want to achieve is not to Make Ein better or more superior to any other DOA, But rather have Ein evolved up to speed in his own original way.

In that regard, Ein wouldn't be stealing techniques from Hitomi because of some "upstart inheritance". It would be like Ein have an advanced moves of his own originality

 

[Brute]

Well this thread got really funny all of a sudden.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

Just trying to help Brute

 

[TakedaZX]

That is true.

But remember, Ein ceased being a Story Character after Hayate was introduced. Semantically, Hitomi's place and evolution in DOA has no consequence then and now.

What we want to achieve is not to Make Ein better or more superior to any other DOA, But rather have Ein evolved up to speed in his own original way.

In that regard, Ein wouldn't be stealing techniques from Hitomi because of some "upstart inheritance". It would be like Ein have an advanced moves of his own originality

Well they ARE tought under the same master, why is this a huge issue? No one trips about Hayate having both Kasumi and Ayane's 7k's.

As for advancing him, I'll still say having him reappear in the cast as a clone is something I could see: Assuming that there was a failure behind project epsilon (which I believe was cloning Hayate), the failed clone could be this Ein. I imagine a slightly more cocky and aggressive Hayate with other suddle defects (Maybe glitchy studdered speech, maybe lack of control). In turn, this could create a link for him and Rig. Karate and Tae Kwon Do have always been back to back as a competiting style but in this case, they would both just be puppets of Donovan.

In that regard, this could be the reason to change up Ein. He could still be pretty calm and collected but seem irritable while being cocky.

That being said I only consider this idea for DOA6. So we should save these other ideas for later. I understand you guys would like to advance his move set but overall we do have to keep it to a minimum and help his focus.

His focus is patience and zone control. We've made changes to strengthen that while also increasing the pay off ge receives for guessing correctly. This is what we hope to achieve.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

Well they ARE tought under the same master, why is this a huge issue? No one trips about Hayate having both Kasumi and Ayane's 7k's.

As for advancing him, I'll still say having him reappear in the cast as a clone is something I could see: Assuming that there was a failure behind project epsilon (which I believe was cloning Hayate), the failed clone could be this Ein. I imagine a slightly more cocky and aggressive Hayate with other suddle defects (Maybe glitchy studdered speech, maybe lack of control). In turn, this could create a link for him and Rig. Karate and Tae Kwon Do have always been back to back as a competiting style but in this case, they would both just be puppets of Donovan.

In that regard, this could be the reason to change up Ein. He could still be pretty calm and collected but seem irritable while being cocky.

That being said I only consider this idea for DOA6. So we should save these other ideas for later. I understand you guys would like to advance his move set but overall we do have to keep it to a minimum and help his focus.

His focus is patience and zone control. We've made changes to strengthen that while also increasing the pay off ge receives for guessing correctly. This is what we hope to achieve.

"That is also True"
(Rocket Raccoon - 2014)

Well they ARE tought under the same master, why is this a huge issue? No one trips about Hayate having both Kasumi and Ayane's 7k's.

As for advancing him, I'll still say having him reappear in the cast as a clone is something I could see: Assuming that there was a failure behind project epsilon (which I believe was cloning Hayate), the failed clone could be this Ein. I imagine a slightly more cocky and aggressive Hayate with other suddle defects (Maybe glitchy studdered speech, maybe lack of control). In turn, this could create a link for him and Rig. Karate and Tae Kwon Do have always been back to back as a competiting style but in this case, they would both just be puppets of Donovan.

In that regard, this could be the reason to change up Ein. He could still be pretty calm and collected but seem irritable while being cocky.

That being said I only consider this idea for DOA6. So we should save these other ideas for later. I understand you guys would like to advance his move set but overall we do have to keep it to a minimum and help his focus.

His focus is patience and zone control. We've made changes to strengthen that while also increasing the pay off ge receives for guessing correctly. This is what we hope to achieve.

Then what about Techniques that come from the

Koketsu Dachi

and/or

Zenkutsu Dachi

 

[Shinko Li]

I'm no ein player , but GOOD STUFF =) Ya have my support !

 

[Splendidsafe]

"Like I said, if TN follows through and accepts your changes that'd be fantastic."-Splendidsafe

Anyway...

That told me everything I needed to know. Clearly our views on this character are very different and in your eyes he doesn't to be on par with Hitomi or really need to be a good character at all because there would be no reason to have him in the game if that was the case for whatever reason. But as odd as your opinion and view on this character may be, I'll leave it be. It's nice to know that if nothing on this list were to be implemented and he ends up the same pushover that he is now in Last Round, at least someone will be content because he's apparently supposed to be like that in your eyes. While I have to respect your opinion, I'm done entertaining it.

• 
  Looking past your unecessarly emotional rebuttal, i'll touch on my Hitomi>Ein point. As DOA 5 U stands now (not DOA 3 or DOA 4), Hitomi is leagues better than Ein. If Ein and Hitomi were in the same tier, it would essentially be like playing the same character. Sure certain things like mixups and frames would be different, yet if there is no cost of switiching from Hitomi to Ein, then there is no reason to keep Ein. The reason I main Ein is because I like the challenge of playing a very bare-bones type character. When I play Hitomi I think much less because I know my mixups, priority,tracking moves and parry can carry me (sadly). With Ein I have to think a lot more because any slip up or wrong read could cost me the match. Ein should remain a thinking man's character, Not Hitomi Alt. (or Wolf Ein lol). If Ein is to progress in LR he needs buffs that still keep him below Hitomi. Otherwise, there will be no need for him because there would be 0 cost in choosing him. Cost=/=Benefit. No cost (in this case)=redundancy. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that's why he wasn't in Vanilla (and got nerfed in 5U), yet don't quote me on that i'm pulling at straws.

tl;dr Like I said, if TN follows through and accepts your changes that'd be fantastic. Honestly it's a win-win situation for me regardless of what happens to Ein. Assuming he doesn't become Eliot tier.

Also:
"Hitomi should not be stronger than Ein. She should have better pressure and stun game mix up. Ein should receive more damage for a successful guess seeing as he doesn't have as potent tools to cause the opponent to make a mistake."-TakedaZX

• For me, a character with a strong mixup game is greater than a character with great damage output (outside throws). This is my play style though so i'm being subjective.

 

[TakedaZX]

@Splendidsafe Yes. It's quite subjective but so are we. I just think your opinion of how he should be improved goes to far off of his playing style.

Hitomi can play a patient spacing and whiff punishment game just as well as Ein but after these changes, she wouldn't match up completely.

Likewise, even with our cqc changes (4pkk/4ppp/1p/4k/3k stun/1k2k), he's still not playing as heavy of an offensive game as Hitomi. He doesn't have the Oki opportunities to keep his pressure going and he doesn't have the 6t reset to keep up pressure with an unseeable +10 throw. These characters will be leagues different on playstyle, but until DOA6, nothing extreme needs to happen beyond putting him on par with Hitomi in his own way.

Regardless, we appreciate the support and feedback. I wouldn't want to give you the impression that we have bad blood because you don't completely agree with us. I like to argue especially when I feel strongly about my point.

I'd definitely love to look into a stance for Ein in DOA6 as well as developing some options that set him far apart from Hitomi. But we'll get there when we get there.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

Then why not give Ein Karate move Hitomi doesn't have?

 

[TakedaZX]

@Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion I think you guys are missing the point that we keep trying to make. In this edition we don't want to completely change him. His strengths and weaknesses are very sensible but the risk vs reward is skewed as of right now.

That being said, his changes really should revolve around defense. He doesn't need an onslaught of new tools to do that, just improvements to his own and utilization of some of the evolutions of his movesets that are rightfully his.

There's a reason 4p2k6p~ wasn't included in the list. There's a reason he doesn't have a stunning mid from his jab strings on the list, there's a reason his 3p doesn't have a follow up listed on it. There's a reason 3k/6k don't have offensive mid strings listed on there.

They change his focus to rushdown when it should be passive aggressive punishment. To play offensively, you must be feeling yourself and ready to gamble hard.

The only other things I'd consider adding to this list are:

1. 3k's CH stun locking out SE at +16 instead of +15 so that 4h+k becomes an option against instant holders.

2. 4K maintain NH launch after speed increase

3. In the case that his 8K variants don't receive the SD stun, keep the launch properties as they are but make all variants a safe -4 guard break that creates space up close so that he can continue to lame it out.

4. 214K. Split this move in two and give it respectable properties. The first hit at least needs to stun. Idc if the second hit knocksdown or sits down on crouching. As it is now, it's a waste of space.

5. 46p gb for -6 at the MOST. This is simply to give him space. At the wall it's neutral throw punishable so he can't be ridiculous. Pushback on the current version would be viable too but the purpose is to create space. So whichever works.

That's about it. The last change is a stretch but it's just ideas. This character doesn't require a genius to be picked up but he requires a certain skill level to become a problem. That's how easy characters should be.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

Also True

 

[TakedaZX]

Also True

It's really just that this isn't [that] topic. I don't mind discussing new direction at all but the focus is all I'm concerned with. I'll happily start the DOA6 Wishful Thinking topic for the hell of it though.

 

[Zeo]

• Looking past your unecessarly emotional rebuttal, i'll touch on my Hitomi>Ein point. As DOA 5 U stands now (not DOA 3 or DOA 4), Hitomi is leagues better than Ein. If Ein and Hitomi were in the same tier, it would essentially be like playing the same character. Sure certain things like mixups and frames would be different, yet if there is no cost of switiching from Hitomi to Ein, then there is no reason to keep Ein. The reason I main Ein is because I like the challenge of playing a very bare-bones type character. When I play Hitomi I think much less because I know my mixups, priority,tracking moves and parry can carry me (sadly). With Ein I have to think a lot more because any slip up or wrong read could cost me the match. Ein should remain a thinking man's character, Not Hitomi Alt. (or Wolf Ein lol). If Ein is to progress in LR he needs buffs that still keep him below Hitomi. Otherwise, there will be no need for him because there would be 0 cost in choosing him. Cost=/=Benefit. No cost (in this case)=redundancy. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that's why he wasn't in Vanilla (and got nerfed in 5U), yet don't quote me on that i'm pulling at straws.

He wasn't in vanilla because of time constraints, that is all.

Just going to drop this here, I remained as cordial and agreeable as possible, but strictly speaking, your post was irritating and devoid of a strong degree of logic boiling down to fighting games and their balancing in general. No character is supposed to be weaker or a worse version of the other in any fighting game. This happens unavoidably in fighters but is never a goal or intention nor should it be. By that logic, since Ryu continued to train in SF and Ken settled down with a family, Ken should always be a worse Ryu otherwise he's redundant. And yet he has been superior on more than one occasianly with an entirely different playstyle despite them sharing nearly the same moveset. I'll attribute this simply to your personal logic, but it is flawed plain and simple.

Now, the logic that if Ein and Hitomi were on the same tier Ein would be redundant. If that's the case, Hayate is redundant. He is eual with Hitomi, whiff punishes just as well as Hitomi and can mix up close in different ways. Momiji is also redundant because she shares many moves and playstyle traits with Hayate. More flawed logic, Ein on par with Hitomi doesn't = Hitomi #2, Ein on par with Hitomi = stronger Ein. Ein still posses his own unique style of play and must play intelligently in order to win. He's simply rewarded more for smart play than he is now.

Redundancy is 2 things that are exactly the same when only 1 is needed. If Ein played exactly like Hitomi, I would agree with you. Your real issue is that you want to have to think when playing as Ein, as if Hitomi is braindead and implying that Ein with improvements would be the same thing. That could be true with certain buffs, that's why we picked what we picked carefully to keep Ein's unique style intact. If you can't mash, he's not Hitomi, period.

Going to end it with this. Akira is a "thinking man's character" and he's one of the top 10 best characters in the game, think about that. Criticize, but don't generalize.

Also:
"Hitomi should not be stronger than Ein. She should have better pressure and stun game mix up. Ein should receive more damage for a successful guess seeing as he doesn't have as potent tools to cause the opponent to make a mistake."-TakedaZX

• For me, a character with a strong mixup game is greater than a character with great damage output (outside throws). This is my play style though so i'm being subjective.

Generally this is probably true... but it's a tough call.

 

[Splendidsafe]

Zeo, this is like the 5th time you've said "i'm done" and "going to end it" in the span of a week. If you have a problem with me PM and we'll discuss it there. Both Takeda and Hakkyoku are still trying to honestly discuss in this thread. At this point, you're essentially shit posting with you're passive aggressive responses. So either discuss something new, send me a PM, or leave. Don't need derailment. Thank you.