Zeo
Well-Known Member
DO NOT BE INTIMIDATED BY THE POST SIZE, YOU ARE NOT EXPECTED TO READ IT ALL AT ONCE.
Had to put that disclaimer up there, can't be scaring people off with my walls of text.
I'm just going to say it, Ein is one of the worst characters in this game. He's not rock bottom but he's definitely low on the totem pole and I wouldn't be surprised if he was bottom five. This topic gives you an invitation into my brain on how to take him out of the gutter and give us not only a complete character but one that doesn't have to struggle to contend with the rest of the cast and maybe, just maybe a character that strikes fear into the opponent when they see you pick him on the character select screen.
I originally was going to post this in the "How are you playing Ein?" thread but a post this large felt like it deserved it's own thread. Maybe we have enough Ein balance threads but there's never been one where you dip so far into my particular brain outside of my outdated frame chart thread.
What separates this from other Ein lists and threads is that I go in depth on the character and talk about moves and improvements that are well... a bit more realistic I'll say, rather than expanding on moves and things that would deviate from his character. Most of the things here are simple balance changes that wouldn't change the character's moveset but would change how he was played in a lot of ways.
This post is colossal and goes into great depth. You will NOT read it all in one setting. But if you are an Ein player, this is relevant to you and deserves a read and your thoughts. I separated it into categories. Just break them down one at a time. I didn't touch on every single move in his movelist but I touched on a lot of popular and key moves, the most relevant and the most used.
6P+K & 4K
Matchups Affected
The Answer
PPP, 3P, 236P, 66PK, 66F+P
6KK, 3K, KK 3H+K & BT Followups
7K, 1KK, 46K, 236K, 2H+K
4P2KP, 4PP, 9PK, 7P, 8P
*New Moves* 1K2K, 214H+K, Running H+K, Hitomi's 8P Series.
There's probably more for me to touch on but nothing else comes to mind, this post is 3 days in the making and when something comes up you can believe I'll post it up as well.
For those brave or patient enough to read through all of this madness I give you a gold star and salute you as a fellow Ein player or main. Don't be afraid to post your thoughts or critique on my ideas and changes. I don't need my main to be easy mode like he was in DOA2, I simply want a complete character with tools he deserves, and a few more he should have already had.
I salute you all. Good Vibrations.
Had to put that disclaimer up there, can't be scaring people off with my walls of text.
I'm just going to say it, Ein is one of the worst characters in this game. He's not rock bottom but he's definitely low on the totem pole and I wouldn't be surprised if he was bottom five. This topic gives you an invitation into my brain on how to take him out of the gutter and give us not only a complete character but one that doesn't have to struggle to contend with the rest of the cast and maybe, just maybe a character that strikes fear into the opponent when they see you pick him on the character select screen.
I originally was going to post this in the "How are you playing Ein?" thread but a post this large felt like it deserved it's own thread. Maybe we have enough Ein balance threads but there's never been one where you dip so far into my particular brain outside of my outdated frame chart thread.
What separates this from other Ein lists and threads is that I go in depth on the character and talk about moves and improvements that are well... a bit more realistic I'll say, rather than expanding on moves and things that would deviate from his character. Most of the things here are simple balance changes that wouldn't change the character's moveset but would change how he was played in a lot of ways.
This post is colossal and goes into great depth. You will NOT read it all in one setting. But if you are an Ein player, this is relevant to you and deserves a read and your thoughts. I separated it into categories. Just break them down one at a time. I didn't touch on every single move in his movelist but I touched on a lot of popular and key moves, the most relevant and the most used.
6P+K & 4K
I've been having a lot of trouble with Ein since this game came out, the character that's given me the most grief however? Ayane. Now, at first I was wondering what about her changed so much that she went from negligible to one of the biggest pains in my butt. She wasn't really a factor for me in vanilla but I used Ein in 4 and she wasn't really one there either. Then I switched to Akira, Hayate or Momiji and suddenly she's not a big problem for me. But then why was it so easy for me in 4? Then I remembered Ein's not the same as he was in 4 and he lost the 2 tools that made that matchup, and a lot more matchups, doable.
6P+K & 4K.
Ein vs Ayane
Ein vs Ayane was always a fairly even matchup and some would even say that it was one in Ein's favor. Ayane is an evasive character that does well up close, has tracking on basically everything, crushes all day and has a variety of tools to snag you at a distance, a fantastic whiff punisher basically. Ein however didn't have a huge problem with her because of two specific moves, 6P+K and 4K. Ayane can crush 46P, 236P despite it being a mid, and can get out of range to a point where 3P will whiff, come back in and punish. Ein was able to handle the matchup because at that range 6P+K was a fast and true mid that came out almost instantly and completely snuffed anything Ayane was trying to do at range. 4K even more so as when it was i13 like 3P, in situations where 3P would whiff 4K would completely negate anything she was trying to do, and in close range situations, unlike 3P, 4K was a true uncrushable mid.
Without these tools, Ayane beats Ein up close in speed, beating just about every mid and low he's got as well as crushing all his highs. What was a non-issue for him has become one of his worst matchups. This mostly applies to Hayate as well who completely negates Ein both up close and at a distance.
Matchups Affected
In fact, going off my DOA4 memory and applying it to 5U in it's current state, these 2 moves would completely revamp Ein's matchups across the board imo. Going off of whiff punishing with 6P+K which admittedly is an easier input to do on reaction to a whiff (as well as being uncrushable) and using 4K to negate pressure:
Characters he would rape:
Characters he would have favorable MUs against:
Characters he could contend with:
Characters that will still give him trouble but less so:
The Answer
You don't really need to do anything with these two moves. They can stay as unsafe as they are, just return them to their original speed. i14 6P+K and i13 4K. An unholdable stun if 6P+K hits a BT opponent would be nice but it's not really necessary. Give his P+K CB status as it's already 20 frames and no more of this i20 6P+K and i16 4K nonsense. It would completely change Ein's game from that alone.
Oh, giving 4K a little more height would be nice though. CH: 3P > 6KK
PPP, 3P, 236P, 66PK, 66F+P
PPP & Charge - I have so many problems with this move it's not even funny. First no mid from high for stun game, instead we have a meh knockback, it's unsafe and it has a retardedly slow charge. I have a lot of ideas for high to mid string ideas but I'm going to be realistic here. There are a few things you need to do to improve this move.
Make it safe. -4 to -6, it has little to no payoff outside of a potential wall blowback, being punishable is too much. Also reduce the 35 frame charge on the 3rd punch by around 8 frames and reduce the advantage on the Guard break by around 3 frames. A 27 frame GB that's +5 on block is reasonable and might actually land and not be mashed out of or held on reaction. Lastly this one's a bit unrealistic as you'd have to do it for all characters: make his PP a natural combo on NH.
3P - this move is fine, the only thing that should be changed it's it's status as a high mid. It needs to be a true uncrushable mid, period.
236P - Same as 3P, I'm fairly certain Hitomi's variant of this move is a true mid. Ein's on the other hand I have seen crushed first hand (particularly by Ayane). It should not be crushable. True mid status.
66P - Advantage on normal hit, period. I don't even care how much, just SOME. Doesn't have to be a stun just for the love of God some advantage. For the 1K variant as well.
66PK - This one has always been difficult for me, on one hand it's easy damage and overpowered, on the other hand it's actually making it useful outside of combos. My ideas for this move are either to make the kick cause a bound with a potential 66KKK or WR K > 6KK followup or simply give the knockdown a guaranteed 1K force tech. Also give that kick and all strings that end with it, tracking. I have no idea why it doesn't already have that.
That would balance things out between his finishers. A mid punch finisher with stun game, a low kick with knockdown or advantage, or a mid kick finisher with a guaranteed followup or guaranteed force tech for advantage.
66F+P - I know Ein's not "that" type of character but the damage is simply too pathetic. 10 more points of damage across the board. Normal, counter, hi counter, the whole nine yards. No one cares if you land this and it gives them a free wakeup kick guessing game as well. I want a free 1K force tech if the opponent doesn't immediately wake up after it lands. No more of this wakeup kick nonsense. Your opponent is basically rewarded with a mixup if you land this.
6KK, 3K, KK 3H+K & BT Followups
12 FRAME MID KICK
Now that that's gotten your attention, my ideas.
6K - i12, yes, i12. I've given this a lot of thought and before you say anything. It's balanced. 6K currently gives +5 on NH and a very weak and shakable +17 on CH (and that's without SEing) lastly with it's speed it would have the same knockdown and not the ideas I have for it that I'll get to in a bit. Now, here we have this i12 mid kick, all it gives is a knock down and it has a terrible CH stun, but it gives +5 on NH. It's not a move to use in stun, what this gives Ein, is an answer.
With 6K being i12, Ein has a reliable fast mid to throw out when being pressured, and on top of that, he has an i11 mid to rely on after things like 2P. They hold high expecting PKK? You get +5 of 6K on NH, they press buttons or try to crush? you get a 17 frame stun that is NOT getting slow escaped on reaction so you are getting P or 3P off of it for stun game. It completely changes his gameplan up close and does so without making him overpowered. If 6KK was kept the same as it was, shave a frame off the startup and you have a completely different Ein.
6KK - These followup ideas are more commonly discussed, having 6K being i12 would make either of these things a bit too strong, so these followups are being considered with 6K being i13 still in mind. The first being instead of a useless knockdown, A landed 6KK in stun or on NH/CH gives the +27 frame sit down stun you get if only the 2nd kick lands on NH. This forces respect, guarantees damage and will scare people into holding, as well as opening up a lot of other possibilities for mixups without making him a "mix-up heavy" character.
The 2nd idea is more commonly pitched, it gives the same bound stun as KK with a potential 6KKK or WR K > 6KK followup. Now some people may think this is easy damage but my idea is that NH 6KK would give the old knock down but CH/Stun 6KK would give the bound. Last idea would be to simply make it a natural combo and give him a guaranteed 1K force tech. Any of these would work, but if he didn't get either of these followup changes and we still get the same useless knockdown, I want i12. Period.
3K - A deeper stun on NH and a bit more on CH. That's really all I want. Not lift stun deep but around +17 for NH and +26 or so for CH would be nice.
KK - Sidestep tracking, that is all.
3H+K - I have issues with this move. First, why is this 32 frame mid kick which he can be hit out of at any time for Hi counter, holdable? It didn't used to be holdable in 2 and 3. It gives a useless knockdown on NH, and on CH it can only be followed up with an unreliable BT 5P or 5K for around 57-63 damage. Finally it only gives +2 on block. Now, an 11 frame low is wonderful, but why is it that the only thing I'm getting out of the deal is a quick low punch that's -1 on NH unless I want to use a 12 frame high kick launcher or a bunch of unreliable slow mid followups? There's not enough reward to landing this move. So what do I want?
1st, return it's unholdable status. 2nd, change it's properties on hit. NH I want guaranteed BT P. On CH I want a high enough launch for BT 1K6PK after the bounce. Now on block? I'm thinking +4 would be fair. It actually commands a bit of respect from Ein's followups that way.
BT 1P - 17 frame stun on CH is fine as it's only a BT low punch. But why is it -1 on NH? There's literally no point to press a button when Ein is BT because you can just let him throw out whatever and he'll either push you back or be at disadvantage. That or hold low and eat a few points of damage from his mid followups. Point being? This should be the same as 2P, +1 on NH. That way he can keep applying legit pressure. He spins his body a bit as well so I'd also like some tracking for those who'd try to get cute and sidestep him.
BT 7K - This move is Godlike. 17 frames, +6 GB on block, unholdable and it's a tech jump on top of it. I have no real way to improve it. I just needed to address how epic it was. It needs to be a standalone move as well, and I will be addressing that later.
BT 4P - So you have BT 7K, This unholdable 17 frame mid kick that tech jumps and is a +6 GB on block. Then you have... this... 22 frame no tracking holdable mid punch from backturn that gives a +4 GB on block. So... why are you using this ever? First point of advantage, it's useless as a 22 frame mid from BT, you're never using this so giving it more advantage is pointless. Shave about... 6 or so frames off of it and combined with 3H+K's +4 you've got a 12 frame mid punch that's +4 on block, perfectly reasonable.
7K, 1KK, 46K, 236K, 2H+K
7K - Useless. That's generally the word anyone who started in DOA4 or 5U will use to address this move. It was quite literally his worst move in DOA4 and while it's a launcher again now it's still probably one of his least useful moves and currently his 2nd worst launcher. Little did you know however, that in DOA2 and 3, this was his best launcher. It had better launch height and was *gasp* unholdable. We need to get back to that. As it stands it does the same damage and has a lower launch height than 33K (which is 5 frames faster), is ridiculous unsafe and so much recovery that you can barely combo off of it.
Now people today will probably look at this being unholdable again as cheap or broken, but my idea of balancing this move is simply to keep it's launch height. Right now all you can really get off of it is PPP, 6KK and 3P > 6KK or PP6PK higher in the threshold. This keeps the damage fair and gives you a safe launch option that is not only reliable but will scare people into holding mid kick more often, giving you more 33T opportunities. If it's not going to be unholdable it needs either more points of damage as a launcher, given more height or have the recovery reduced. As it is it's literally worse than Hayate's 8K and his 2nd most useless launcher. There is literally NO reason to use this over 33K at any point. We need to get back to our roots and give Ein back one of his best launchers.
1K - I'd really like to say give this +1 or +2 on NH but a frame advantage low that strings into a high, mid kick or mid punch? It's just a little too good in my opinion, do take it down to around -2 to 0 though, that'd be nice.
1KK - They did this move up right this time around, Gives a nice bounce in stun and you can chain 236P on lvl 1 threshold, 66KKK for lvl 2 and 4H+K > 1K6PK for lvl 3. What I don't agree with however is it still being unsafe on block. I'd like a 0 or -2 GB on block but that's asking for a bit too much. I think it should be safe however, around -4 to 6, buy no more or less than that.
46K - *Sigh*... this move. What was once slow and worthless in DOA2 and 3 was made one of his best and only blocking pressure tools in DOA4. It had crappy range that was inferior to Hayate's variant, but it was a whopping +5 on block allowing Ein to do basically anything he wanted. In DOA5U, both his and Hayate's variant of this move was toned down to a measly +1 on block. This effects Ein moreso however because his still has crappy range and he's slower than Hayate and can't pressure as well. Unlike Hayate you don't really have to respect Ein after he does this move. It needs more advantage, period. I really want it to have it's +5 from DOA4, but I would settle for... +3. I want this to be a +3 GB on block.
236K - Another move that was actually improved. It was negative on block in all DOAs except this one. It's actually the best it's ever been. It's always been holdable though it might have been unholdable in vanilla DOA2 but don't quote me on that. Here it's +1 on block but the problem is it's a 32 frame non tracking holdable mid kick that's only +1 on block. Even Hayate, the faster character's variant is +2. It should be +5. Honestly a move this slow should be +10 or more, but I'm being generous. +5 on block, it can stay holdable though.
2H+K - A true opener that he lost from DOA4. I want this to be a move to be feared again. Doesn't have to be a deep stun but something to scare the opponent if it lands. I want around a +15 trip stun on NH, something that you know, actually opens the opponent up. Same goes for all strings that end with this kick of course.
4P2KP, 4PP, 9PK, 7P, 8P
4P - It's been said before, buff the damage up to 23 so he's not getting beat out.
4PP - I'd actually like a deeper stun from this on NH and CH. Call me greedy but around +30 or so. Gives him a quick and meaty answer to steppers. They're highs anyway, those generally give the most stun.
4P2KP - This move is fine as is, NH, CH, the whole nine yards. What needs to be changed? The relaunch properties, especially in tag. When Ein had you at the wall in DOA3.1, you know what he could do? 4P2KP > 4K. Devastating. Point being this needs a higher relaunch. Not to the point of being overpowered but a legit wall combo or tag relaunch using this would definitely be nice. Yes, this also means no more of this flipping the opponent over in singles killing the combo.
9PK - This move is impractical and always has been, but at the very least I don't think players should be punished if it actually does hit the opponent. I could never see something like this giving advantage, but what it can be is deceptive. I want it to be a guard break that's neutral on block. Straight cold 0. Chances are most would think it's unsafe and for those that know it's neutral, Ein's got PKK for a good CH.
9P - Personally never liked this launcher. It's still better than 8P but this was always my least used launcher. Regardless it has it's place but it could still be improved as something is missing. Where's the relaunch properties? Hayate's 8P relaunches opponents, Ein's doesn't. Why's that? For one thing, after an explosion on scramble or a hit from a tiger on the show, he should be able to 9P > 1K6PK anything but heavyweights. Fix this.
7P - ...*Sigh*.. this move. After playing Akira seeing how amazing his guard breaks are, this move pisses me off. 30 frame HIGH PUNCH that gives +13 on NH, but wait! If it lands at TIP distance you get a free non close hit 46P which does nothing but bring your opponent closer to a wall, and on the off chance it sends them to a wall, you were better of just 33T'ing if your opponent was standing at the wall for 30 frames. Guess what? Gen Fu and Akira have faster guard breaks that guarantee damage. I want +22 from this move on block. I want guaranteed launch or stun game, period. No excuse. This move is unacceptable as it is now.
8P - This one people might disagree with but I don't like it as a bound as all. I would prefer the sit down stun it grants on NH to apply to CH. Now people might think I don't know what I'm talking about but I labbed this crap.
CH 3P > 8P > 66KKK does 74 Damage. CH 3P > 9P > 1K6PK does 68. Now, for those that think we would be losing out on damage, 8P does damage on it's own and is a +27 SDS which is +19 on fastest stagger escape. So he could go 9P, 33K or 4K for free if he landed this, I shouldn't even need to explain why this would give him so much more damage than it does as a bound. Scrap the bound and give this the sit down it always should have had. It would make you AFRAID of Ein if he landed a hit. Particularly of his mid punches even more so.
CH 3P > 6P > 8P > 33K > 3P > PP6PK.
Think about that combo, the fact that those last 3 parts are guaranteed after 8P, and the fact that if he swapped PP6PK out with 6KK he wouldn't even need to be at max threshold to do it.
*New Moves* 1K2K, 214H+K, Running H+K, Hitomi's 8P Series.
1K2K - I debated about this with Takeda a long time ago, It was taken from Hayate (Which he had in DOA4 as 1KK) but Ein still has his 1K unlike him. He lacks a good quick low to open his opponent up, I think this should be given to him. It may not have to be +10 but even +5 would be nice as it gives Ein some good breathing room and it would force you to respect 1K a bit more, opening opponents up to the mid followups.
214H+K - I've been talking about this one for the longest. It's what I feel 214K should have been. What we got was ok but this is what I truly wanted. I talked about BT 7K earlier which was essentially a variant of Hitomi's 236K except slower and a guard break with advantage. This is that same move stand alone.
This is Ein's spinning dragon kick. I was overzealous with it when I first pitched the idea and I've since toned it down. So this is my idea. 23 Frames, No Tracking, Unholdable, Tech Jumping, Mid Kick, +2 Guard Break on block. Sound fair? Good, brings me to my next idea.
Running H+K - A running variant of 214H+K and yet another get in tool for Ein. Same +2 GB as the original but 21 frames instead of 23.
Hitomi's 8P Series - For those that don't know Hitomi's 8P is the same as Ein's 4P. She's got the exact same strings as him except she gained the following in DOA5.
8P1KK
9P1K6PP
8P1K6PK
8P2K6P2K
Give these to Ein, that is all.
There's probably more for me to touch on but nothing else comes to mind, this post is 3 days in the making and when something comes up you can believe I'll post it up as well.
For those brave or patient enough to read through all of this madness I give you a gold star and salute you as a fellow Ein player or main. Don't be afraid to post your thoughts or critique on my ideas and changes. I don't need my main to be easy mode like he was in DOA2, I simply want a complete character with tools he deserves, and a few more he should have already had.
I salute you all. Good Vibrations.
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