The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[Jefffcore]

I wrote some numbers up earlier, but they were a little drastic for DOA.
Mila vs Bass: 7-3 for Mila
Mila vs. Hitomi: 6.5-3.5 for Mila

Helena was the same 6-4 for Mila

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

Didn't know Mila was so bad. Why is that so ?

 

[Jefffcore]

She's not, those are in her favor

 

[Zeo]

How about Tina Vs Mila?

 

[Matt Ponton]

She's not, those are in her favor

I think he was just getting confused because typically you give the #-# in the order you place the vs. So Bass vs Mila being 7-3 would mean Bass would win 7 matches and Mila 3. I understood what you meant, but just try to be clearer in the future.

As for Mila vs Bass, I also agree on the advantage towards Mila, but I'm hesitant to say it's 7-3 advantage. For now I could agree to 6-4 Mila.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I'm curious to see how Helena's match ups play out. When you compare her overall tools to other characters her match ups look bad but she has got her force tech mind games.

Pros:
Force tech mid games
Good Launchers
Solid Mix ups
Good side steps

Cons:
Low damage
Slowest non grappler
No safe options
Poor range

Do those pros make her match ups good despite her cons? I'm not sure.

 

[DR2K]

I'm curious to see how Helena's match ups play out. When you compare her overall tools to other characters her match ups look bad but she has got her force tech mind games.

Pros:
Force tech mid games
Good Launchers
Solid Mix ups
Good side steps

Cons:
Low damage
Slowest non grappler
No safe options
Poor range

Do those pros make her match ups good despite her cons? I'm not sure.

A good Helena player will make sure to never play the netueral game.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

A good Helena player will make sure to never play the netueral game.

That relies on her guessing right constantly, she can't be right all the time. Plus she has to get them into her "loop" to stay out of neutral. You start away from your opponent, and will often find yourself being spaced before you can get into the right position. Regardless of how good her force tech is I don't see it compensating for all of her short comings.

 

[DR2K]

That relies on her guessing right constantly, she can't be right all the time. Plus she has to get them into her "loop" to stay out of neutral. You start away from your opponent, and will often find yourself being spaced before you can get into the right position. Regardless of how good her force tech is I don't see it compensating for all of her short comings.

She only needs to score one knockdown and she'll retain frame advantage for the rest of the match.

 

[Jefffcore]

I think he was just getting confused because typically you give the #-# in the order you place the vs. So Bass vs Mila being 7-3 would mean Bass would win 7 matches and Mila 3. I understood what you meant, but just try to be clearer in the future.

Whoops. Changed it.

As for Mila vs Bass, I also agree on the advantage towards Mila, but I'm hesitant to say it's 7-3 advantage. For now I could agree to 6-4 Mila.

Bass just has to work really hard wherever he is. Up close Mila is fast enough to stop his jab with 6p, and from range he has 9k and 3k that are going to threaten her, but they aren't really a threat because she's still faster and has more range. Bass's weight effects a couple set ups, but she's still got the same damage from CB and her tackle is more effective that any of Bass's.

If Bass's fasted mid is less than 14i (I can't remember if his 6k is 14 or 15) her 2p shuts down everything he does AND gives her +1 on top of it.

I see it as almost unwinnable to be honest.

How about Tina Vs Mila?

Right now I'd give it to Mila just because. I don't have numbers 'cause I haven't played it enough, though. Not sure what damage Tina is doing, or what her set ups from throws, etc are.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

She only needs to score one knockdown and she'll retain frame advantage for the rest of the match.

Okay so say they tech she does 6P, they block that. She can continue each variant of the string, neither hit low and both are unsafe. Then what? She can free cancel after the first punch but she is still at heavy negative frames. They may not try and throw her for free cancelling but ANY GOOD player will notice her free cancel and begin applying string pressure.

Unless Helena guesses correctly that frame advantage is gone and it will not be coming back until she can either launch them or BKO grab them.

This idea that nothing else about her matters because one knockdown decides the match is bullshit.

 

[Jefffcore]

Helena only has 1 option that loops instantly and 9k sorta does. If she sweeps or does something else, they other player has at least 2 chances to guess out on top of that. It's not just an instant win.

I've said this before, too. If you let her tech you and you're not on a wall you can back away and avoid all but her sweep and 66k. The sweep is hitting at tip range and doesn't give her anything.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Helena only has 1 option that loops instantly and 9k sorta does. If she sweeps or does something else, they other player has at least 2 chances to guess out on top of that. It's not just an instant win.

I've said this before, too. If you let her tech you and you're not on a wall you can back away and avoid all but her sweep and 66k. The sweep is hitting at tip range and doesn't give her anything.

Well people heard Rikuto call her "broken" for it and what do you know, suddenly one launch or grab ends the match. It's that "broken"!

 

[Jefffcore]

He's also playing Bayman.

In comparison to Mila:

Math stuffs:
All on NH

Most Damaging Combos
Heavyweight
CB > 6H+K (33P is too high/recovers too fast) > 3PP > KP > Mount = 152 without last hit 132

Lightweight and Midweights
A full CB > 33P > P6PP > P+K > Mount is 144 (They can wake up kick from this).
The last hit on the mount is 20, so not doing it leaves you with 124 and advantage.

**Neither combo for guaranteed mount work on Gen Fu

Pseudo
The combo I was doing with CB > 33P > P6PP was getting me 88.

6T is 48 with the kick, and +11
Tackle on NH is 75, on Counter it's 90. Also keep in mind that a tackle does 30 initially, a mount does nothing.

From a tech:
Lightweights + 8
Mid +6
Heavy +4

88 (original combo) + 48 = 136 with +11
88 + 75 (full tackle) = 163 (they can wake up kick after this) -20 from not doing last hit = 143 and advantage
88 + 90 (full tackle on Counter) = 178 (they can wake up kick) -20 = 158 and advantage

** You don't have enough advantage to tackle a heavyweight if they press a button

If 3H+K hits:
It does 95 damage and gives you +20

If 9P hits you get 3H+K again, that gives 35 then +20 again.

95 + 35 = 130
95 + 75 = 170 (they can wake up kick) -20 = 150 and advantage

9P is mid, hold resistant, wont be beat by anything and only -3. After a hold you're still -3.

And that's only if I wanna play safely.

After Mila's 3pp she gets a guaranteed launch from 3p that offers a pseudo on mid and light for around +4. It removes the option for a tackle if they attack though. Of course if they do block you can 4k into tackle

 

[DR2K]

Okay so say they tech she does 6P, they block that. She can continue each variant of the string, neither hit low and both are unsafe. Then what? She can free cancel after the first punch but she is still at heavy negative frames. They may not try and throw her for free cancelling but ANY GOOD player will notice her free cancel and begin applying string pressure.

Unless Helena guesses correctly that frame advantage is gone and it will not be coming back until she can either launch them or BKO grab them.

This idea that nothing else about her matters because one knockdown decides the match is bullshit.

Like I said before all this theory fighting doesn't work out in practice in a game like DOA5. The better guesser is going to win regardless of the match up(thank you triangle system) and Helena has the ability to override any match up in the game if she can score the knockdown, because she can guess better every time. At this point it doesn't really matter if you have an OH that nets you 50% at a wall, if you can hit a CB in 2 hits, if you have the safest moves, a 9 frame jab, it's a 10-0 match up or the biggest E-penis.

Matchups become irrelevant as soon as the stun system is in play, every character is equally viable because of this.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

Like I said before all this theory fighting doesn't work out in practice in a game like DOA5. The better guesser is going to win regardless of the match up(thank you triangle system) and Helena has the ability to override any match up in the game if she can score the knockdown, because she can guess better every time. At this point it doesn't really matter if you have an OH that nets you 50% at a wall, if you can hit a CB in 2 hits, if you have the safest moves, a 9 frame jab, it's a 10-0 match up or the biggest E-penis.

Matchups become irrelevant as soon as the stun system is in play, every character is equally viable because of this.

So I'm asking about how her match up's are and your answer is that Helena wins all her match up's cause she can guess better every time? Am I understanding this right

Edit:
I wouldn't say the better guesser will win every time, I would say that the first person to land stun has a better chance of winning seeing as the person in stun is at a huge disadvantage. Seeing as she is the slowest striker in the game with poor range I'd say that goes heavily against her.

Match starts in neutral > Helena sucks here.
She gets loop going > 50/50 here > Helena has advantage.
They guess wrong 50/50 again > Helena is still at advantage.
They guess right she eats a HC combo and enters neutral game again > Sucks for Helena.

No matter how well she guesses it's still a 50/50 guess and she can't be right all the time. And when she guesses wrong it costs her fairly badly. I'm just interested in how this trade of of advantage/disadvantage works in her match ups.

 

[DR2K]

So I'm asking about how her match up's are and your answer is that Helena wins all her match up's cause she can guess better every time? Am I understanding this right?

I'm saying match ups become irrelevant once the stun game comes into play and Helena can access it and kill the come back wake up kick mechanic at the same time. So not only is she continuing her stun game, she completely removes any chance the opponent can comeback with theirs.

 

[Omegan Eckhart]

I'm saying match ups become irrelevant once the stun game comes into play and Helena can access it and kill the come back wake up kick mechanic at the same time. So not only is she continuing her stun game, she completely removes any chance the opponent can comeback with theirs.

So would you say every match up is in her favour seeing how no other character can do this kind of looping as well as she can?

 

[J.D.E.]

I do agree at the disadvantage, but I think 7-3 is a bit harsh. I would say that the Kasumi, Christie, and Jann Lee match up could be a 7-3 to Bass, and Hayabusa could be a 6-4. Hayabusa's best "anti-Bass" strat is WR 4K due to it crushing many of his attacks, giving Busa a launch into juggle that pushes Bass away to be put in range of Busa's ninpo games, and if bass does manage to counter hit it then Bass doesn't get anything since Busa' is considered air state and low to the ground to tech.

Good point. I didn't think about that.

 

[DR2K]

So would you say every match up is in her favour seeing how no other character can do this kind of looping as well as she can?

More like ignores the concept completely.