HiguraShiki
Active Member
Bass has really bad matchups with Kasumi and Christie. It also doesn't help that Christie has many evasive moves that she can throw out after Bass picks her up from the ground.
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
Hayabusa vs Bass: favors Busa. Busa has more evasiveness. He a little bit quicker & can get off a launcher for guaranteed dmg. Bass has grabbing moves to his disposal, but as far as jabs, being on the move, etc. Busa has him. Busa also got him in the range. This is my personal match-up with both of them as I used them both (Fought Bass with Busa, Busa with Bass) 7-3.
Hayabusa vs Hayate: Favors Hayate. Hayate just doesn't care for Busa in range & his jabs beat out Busas. Hayate beats him to the punch everytime. Busa's teleports are very predictable, but as far that goes, that's not really his range. Hayabusa is working harder for his wins in this ninja rivalry. Hayate is punishing every false move he makes. 6-4
Post more later.
Hayabusa vs Hayate: Favors Hayate. Hayate just doesn't care for Busa in range & his jabs beat out Busas. Hayate beats him to the punch everytime. Busa's teleports are very predictable, but as far that goes, that's not really his range. Hayabusa is working harder for his wins in this ninja rivalry. Hayate is punishing every false move he makes. 6-4
Post more later.
I'd be good if he could have his 6KP juggle pick up back. That would actually help improving his game. Shimbori's excuse for removing it was very flimsy.
How does he hold up against Lei Fang and Gen Fu? (Maybe I should've taken this to the Bass match up thread)
How does he hold up against Lei Fang and Gen Fu? (Maybe I should've taken this to the Bass match up thread)
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
I just can't wrap my head around this Hayabusa is absolute garbage thing that I keep hearing. So he isn't great at everything like he used to be. His crushes are still solid, he has a variety of safe strings, lots of guard crushes that track, high damage output. So Hayate does "everything" better than Busa outside of punishing? I guess I forgot all those tracking guard crushes Hayate has.
I get that he is not top tier any more but I honestly think people were simply spoiled by 7 years of having a character who excelled at every single aspect of the game with no weaknesses to be exploited. He's still good at a lot of things and not so good at others. Saying they "killed" Hayabusa is completely ignoring all his strengths and only focusing on what he lacks.
Well, that's kinda relative as in: "How much of the cast must you find less efficient" to the considered "bad."
His gaurd crushes are not all they're made out to be, as due to his sluggish speed he can't take advantage of the raw frame advantage he generates from them.
Also, note that his mix-up game is pretty bad here. After beginning a combo, very very times can he opt to go low. And in a lot of cases (such as PP2K) the "trip" is really just a useless poke,
His crushes are decent in theory, but 1) DOA has a funny way of ensuring that crushes are inconsistent. 2) They're actually not very efficient due to their speed. If your opponent knows to just go mid, their mids will always be fast enough to intercept Ryu's slow crushes.
You say we're spoiled because he had no weaknesses in past DOA games. I'll agree to that extent in 4. But that's no reason to literally give him no strengths aside from the ceiling game. All of his "strengths" can be found much more effective in other characters who are accompanied by other tools to boot. His only notable place to shine really lies in the Izunas (particularly the Shoho, as it's one of the few set-ups which garuntees 80 damage after a single strike connects).
I do agree at the disadvantage, but I think 7-3 is a bit harsh. I would say that the Kasumi, Christie, and Jann Lee match up could be a 7-3 to Bass, and Hayabusa could be a 6-4. Hayabusa's best "anti-Bass" strat is WR 4K due to it crushing many of his attacks, giving Busa a launch into juggle that pushes Bass away to be put in range of Busa's ninpo games, and if bass does manage to counter hit it then Bass doesn't get anything since Busa' is considered air state and low to the ground to tech.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
His crushes aren't solid, he doesn't have many safe strings at all, and his guard crushes are also slow. All he has going for him is the high damage output when he does get a hit. He's a joke. +2? (that's what he gets from 3H+K) So, he's still only tide with the faster characters in every way but his jab.
KwonJigglypuff
Well-Known Member
So, do you guys still think Helena is like the worst character in the game ?
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
I really don't think any character is absolutely terrible.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
When Busa players say things like "no strengths" that's when I begin to turn off somewhat. It simply isn't true, he has "the best pressure game against blocking opponents". those guard crushes are soooo good and it's not like he can't change his strings if people start countering them. Saying he is too slow to take advantage of +9 is retarded. Are you seriously telling that if you attack after land a +9 guard crush you will be beaten out? Of course not! So that is when play mind games between a grab, another guard crush, a low, whatever the hell you like. Helena gets +4 or something from force tech's and it's enough to keep pressure easily but +9 for Busa is useless? They are almost the same speed.
In regards to crushes speed means nothing at all. Helena's P+K takes 18 frames to come out but it crushes by frame 4 or so, it's the same with Busa's crushes. His 46K from crouching is incredible and it has a safe follow up unlike other crushes.
Be serious, Bass could take advantage of +9 and Busa is much faster. His pokes are 1 frame slower, 10 frame jab > 11 frame jab, 12 frame mid > 13 frame mid. If pokes like that are too slow to take advantage of +9 then all frame advantage in the game is utterly useless.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
On paper, absolutely. But in the end guessing is king.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Helena's 66KPP when fully charged is +2, so what? Not every guard crush in the game is great.
66K +5
4PK +9
PP4PK +9
6KP +14
The last one is slow I'll give you that but saying his guard crushes are useless is such crap. Almost every guard crush in the game is slow>ish. Might as well disregard all of them then. It's not like his are slower than everyone else's.
His 46K from crouching is incredible, that thing cuts under so much shit. His 2F+K is still really good too, still crushes high's straight away unlike Helena's P+K.
+2 Ain't great but all his other frame advantage is plenty to do whatever he likes.
I went and added, based on the discussions so far, what I currently think Bass' match ups are to the sheet. I'll try and spend some time to look over the past pages to see if there's any other match ups that can be entered.
The match ups aren't final but are a way for someone to come into the conversation by saying "Hey, I think Mila vs Helena should be 8-2 instead of 7-3 because...".
The match ups aren't final but are a way for someone to come into the conversation by saying "Hey, I think Mila vs Helena should be 8-2 instead of 7-3 because...".
No he doesn't. As I already described, he has horrible low trips and blocking opponents will cause you to be at ridiculous disadvantage given his speed once your combo is finished. The 4PK/PP4PK only works until your opponent realizes it's what your relying on and begins to counter it, not to mention that 4P being a mid makes it frequently countered on-reaction both to start an offense and as the third hit in a PP chain.
Oh? And what are we changing to, here? He's got 1PK, which is good so long as you don't always follow through with the K (counter). And then 236P and 236P+K, both of which are decently slow mids and can be rather easily intercepted with other, faster mids. Then he has the 6KP and 9K low crushes which are some of the most funky, unreliable BS in the game, with lows often pulling you out of them even at the peak height of the animation (though that's largely inconsistent).
I never said they're useless. I'm just saying they're not as potent as the "on paper" effect may indicate.
He has no move with that input. I think you mean crouching 4K (34K).
HiguraShiki
Active Member
Personally, I feel even Brad is better than Busa. Actually, Brad is a much more legit character in DOA5 compared to his former self.
MajesticBlue
Active Member
Ryu isn't too slow to take advantage of the plus nine, the issue is what does he have that is scary at plus 9? Nothing. It is pretty easy to never give him the damage he needs. Going for a normal throw Izuna (Your only real mixup tool other then 6pk, and that knocks down giving you nothing.) and eating a hi counter launch going for your best option just doesn't work out. The rest of the cast are doing mixups with high counter throws while he has to settle for normal throws. There are also no real lows to fear. He is stuck playing a neutral game for no real damage. If people just eat the chip damage he can't do much.
As far as the Hayate vs Ryu matchup, I had mine posted in a different thread that got deleted so I can't copy and paste it lol. The only tool Ryu has in the matchup is his Izuna hold. Hayate is faster and does everything about the same or better other then holds and guard breaks. Hayate even has a better puhish throw and safe ways to start up a stun game.
He doesn't need to be the best in the game. In my eyes he isn't very functional though, It's like he is only half finished. They gave him tools he has no way to capitalize on. Tools with no real mixup. Risk vs reward just isn't there.
As far as the Hayate vs Ryu matchup, I had mine posted in a different thread that got deleted so I can't copy and paste it lol. The only tool Ryu has in the matchup is his Izuna hold. Hayate is faster and does everything about the same or better other then holds and guard breaks. Hayate even has a better puhish throw and safe ways to start up a stun game.
He doesn't need to be the best in the game. In my eyes he isn't very functional though, It's like he is only half finished. They gave him tools he has no way to capitalize on. Tools with no real mixup. Risk vs reward just isn't there.
In my personal opinion Kokoro loses to:
Brad Wong 7-3
Jann Lee 6.5-4.5
Mila 6-4
Lei Fang 6-4
Bayman 6-4
It is pretty late so I will elaborate when I have time to express why i think these are bad match ups.
Brad Wong 7-3
Jann Lee 6.5-4.5
Mila 6-4
Lei Fang 6-4
Bayman 6-4
It is pretty late so I will elaborate when I have time to express why i think these are bad match ups.