'Sup?
Hayate has two 12 frame mids, one of which leads into 6PP with has great lurch and decent stun properties. Ryu has only one 13 frame mid with zero lurch. Don't forget that strings also matter in a charatcer's speed. If Ryu wants to mix things up, he MUST free-cancel. Hayate can using string speed for mix-ups (addressed more in next quote).
Like I said, Hayabusa can clear out all but 7k with his own standing K which comes in a 12i. It'll stop everything except crushes. By doing that it levels down Hayate to only being able to us 14 frame mids, or jabs, which is when Hayabusa goes to work. 6p will cut everything else off and KP will combo on NH but the punch is holdable. 6pp is basically KP but with a mid punch start up. Did I mention 6pk and 6pp both track for Hayabusa so there's no using SS in this case.
As for 6pk itself for both of them look at the guessing game for Ryu
This calls for Hayate to guess more. For Ryu it's:
- If he does 6p will he free cancel or not?
- If he does should I punish or not?
- Should I try and block the follow ups and punish?
- Should I try and duck and interrupt him or duck to get the freedom to throw right away?
- Should I try and punish 6pk4 or will he stay safe with 6pk?
- If he does 6pk, will he attack out of disadvantage or not?
- If he attacks out of disadvantage what will he use, should I guess and hold it?
- Should I 2p to catch him after Ongyoin?
- Should I
While with Hayate it's:
- If he does 6p will he free cancel or not
- If he does 6pk or 6pp I'll punish that.
- If he free cancels and I know it's coming should I punish it or attack him?
Ryu's 6pk puts you mixup situation for Ryu on will he move or will he not move. You can spam 2p's all day but the damage you get from a hi counter advanced low punch hold is once again... higher than what Hayate gets for 2p period. After that's said and done with, Ryu's other options will cover all Hayate's other lows and all his other mids if it's a +1 situation and if it's a +6 situation... well... hahaha...
Hayate's 6pk is damn good in its own way as it will check low hitbox sidesteps in a better/safer way than Busa's 6pp will but I'd rather it actually be safe than just a risky check and once again this is Ryu who has an advantage on blocking Hayate's 6pk. 6PP is all kinds of great on hit, but I never liked the move. The stun is amazing on CH so lets hope its CH[/quote]
The situations you get with Hayate are that low trips leave you at advantage rather than disadvantage. Ryu must end with 6PK, 4PK or his stupid ongyoin or he will be punished. For example, if Ryu's 1PK string could go into a mid punch like Hayate's and initiate a stupid guessing game every single time, it would be a much more effective move.
Um, first of all... 6pk is safe on block. If you got it blocked, that's your fault as the player for incorrect read. It happens, unless you mean 6kp. Yea that one isn't every good, but I see it used still, not often but enough.
33P4 you talk about later but I say it now. We both agree it's good to go into the Ongyoin for safety and advantage. 6P+K/Ong 6P is a different story but like I said, that move is safe on block in general. Tired of 2p's to avoid Ongyoin follow ups? ong 6p (block), 61H Izuna, done. That's just options, you're not completely defenseless.
And you think Ryu is any different? I laid out his options before, and technically 6PK can be punished. He's really relying on that 4PK. PP2K isn't worth junk. As soon as someone sees that worthless toe-poke they know they can beat out most follow-ups and just intercept you.
Technically nothing. This is once again, Hayate vs Ryu. Ryu can not be punished on 6pk, only 6pk4 which you'd probably only use if you expect the opponent to press buttons, period. Hayate can be punished on both accounts of his 6pk follow ups and his 6p is way more unsafe on NH and block.
pp2kp is the change up, if you opponent loves pressing buttons you should use it, then work your spacing how you feel. -12 on block? I feel you bro. We both share moves that are garbage on hit. pp2k is bad for Hayate but he gets that same old pp2kp, or pp2kk mixup. He also has a stance from his but just like with Ryu 2p kills it no matter what the situation. I'd say that Hayate has the better mix-up off of that but, I can't because all of the options are punishable except the guard break. -Shrugs-
The move pp2k is broken (broken, like bad broken, not good) though, sometimes it gives me ong 6p, when I'm pressing 1 still from transitioning into Ongyoin. That's a weird problem I don't like for it so that should be fixed. If I want 1k~Ong 6p, I'll press 6p.
Ong6P4 is good for intimidation, but not much else. Once someone realizes that nothing from ongyoin tracks, they can just circle-strafe at range and 2P up close. Ongyoin mainly works if your opponent is scared. Once they realize it's all smoke and mirrors, it's easy to shut down.
I'll bit, 33P4 is good. But, it's an 18 frame mid. Hayate's still got 12. 12 is faster than 18.
Most Ryu players don't like to be in ongyoin up close.
With 66K you get +6 and your fastest high as 12 frames and your fastest mid being 19, neither of which track.
Which is where Ryu's Teleports come in, allowing you to get in and bait delayed reactions. 88 and 22 will put you close to them but 66 will be behind them, which they'll probably be expecting anyway... a good technique is to ongyoin 6p up from far range and then just change to a teleport.
Those track. Ongyoin 6p, Ongyoin 6p+k, and Ong 6k track free step but not sidestep, so they can hold 8/2/9/3 all they want, one of those will check them and if bad comes to worse Ong PP is there, not the best distance cutter but it tracks on both hits and is safe on block (the second punch). Realize I said it's an option, not the "best" option.
I never said just charge in Ongyoin-a-blasting everytime, it's just another way to pressure.
If 33p4 is used correctly, not only is it a nice stun but it's a safe launcher with follow ups. High kick reset, low kick stun, Ongyoin mix-up factor.
66K should launch on threshold break... just throwing that out there again, post CB it'd be nice to see. Anyway the fastest mid from ongyoin is actually 15 frames (6P+K). In a game of playing at major disadvantage on "every move we make", Hayate and Ryu must utilize everything, the block stun on this move? weak. Recovery? Quick enough. Punishable... hell yes... good pay off? I see it that way. It's the most damaging single hit move from his Ongyoin, anyway if your opponent doesn't respect your shit and goes for a jab or low punch you can shut them down with 6p+k, easy.
Only problem is it's -15 on block BUT it has to be low throw punished. The block stun is very weak. I say this about Hayate's P+K as well. Punishment on it is missed a lot simply because of the block stun being too shallow so by the time you react to press a button, it's missed. If there's a catalyst like a sidestep or 3h+kk(p) to let you know it might be coming you can mentally prepare yourself to punish it but more often than not... that won't always happen if they Hayate is doing his job.
Ryu is a fucking damage power-house. Ong6P on HiC is ridiculous.
Ryu does deal more damage, true, but he has to work harder for it in my experience. He is playing defensively with Izuna holds; there's no doubt about that in my mind.
Does he? 3 guesses to CB. CB best post CB combo gives him an unscaled air throw to finish it off and can usually be topped with the old 236p, pp4p, pp4p6p if you really want that damage that bad.
I see where you're coming from, but I still say it favors Hayate. Ryu really has to be making perfect reads all day, whereas Hayate gets a bit more wiggle-room and freedom in approaches.
Maybe, but from the looks of it it doesn't seem that way. If Hayate had a teleport and his old wind dash still I might agree a bit more... just a bit, not to say his new wind dash is bad, but I think his current wind dash is... misplaced as a primary dash. If you played Tekken and played as Lars I'd be able to explain better.
Parry is stupid. 2P it. Or if telegraphed just go for a HiC throw. Hayate can get good damage off that.
Bullshit. The parry saves lives. Yea go ahead and 2P Ryu when he's at +1 and watch while that headbutt checks you everytime. That's his bail out in most situations since it coves all highs and mids and even if I choose to parry and you 2p, it's a hold. Resets us to neutral, I throw a jab? We trade jabs or I cover 6p and 7k. Standing K covers 6p and gives you advantage to work with for stun game. Everything else is covered by 6p. Ryu has answers to everything lol, that's my point and some of those answers are really good. Couple that with the powerhouse damage output... Christ... speed is not enough.
Gap-closing, Hayate is better. Ryu's 3H+K is fucking stupid with it's 2 frame advantage (esp. mixed with his snail speed). Literally everything Ryu's got can be safely negated by standing there like a tard and blocking (except ong8T but agai, ong->circle strafe to safety). +2 is really not that scary (same for 214P) and all his others leave him at disadvantage or ong at close range (again, a situation we don't want to be in).
Is Hayate similarly limited? No. 214PP and 3H+K have almost identical start-up animations making it very difficult to tell what to do on reaction. Further more, the 3H+K can be free-canceled like madness into throw baits, and has a tracking follow-up. He also has that running aerial kick combo which can be free-canceled to bait a throw on hit.
They're not safe, but let's be honest, neither Ryu or Hayate are safe on block. Hayate makes the opponent guess more than Ryu does.
The only things that is faster for HAYATE is 6p and 7k.
3k for both of them is 14 frames. Their secondary mid kick stun (6K Ryu, and 1K Hay) is 15 frames. Their high punch stun is 14 frames (8p Ryu, 9p Hayate). Raw Tracking mid punch? 15i Ryu, 18i Hayate. This is crucial.
3P's are both 15 frames and Hayabusa has 3 hits on his and it can be delayed more and have deep stuns. Hayate's is mid mid but guarantees a launcher. Still unsafe and it's not even a 50/50 because it doesn't check SS.
Hayabusa has 66p (14i) and 666p (Devils Palm, 16i). Both will check Hayate's 66p at neutral by out damaging and out speeding it and 666p will be safe on block, while 66p will extend the stun if needed. Hayabusa usually measures up to Hayate on speed of moves so don't be so ignorant as to call him a snail without looking to call HAYATE a snail. They aren't much different...
Only launcher speeds are the difference. In exchange Ryu gets better stuns to mess around with, but that doesn't make it even since he's getting more bang for his buck. If Hayate was safer as a striker than Hayate I could see this 5-5 or 6-4 Hayate but at the moment, I see Ryu up top.
If Master played Hayate, I'm sure he would have.
If you know a bunch of Ryus aside from arguably one of, if not the, best DOA player that are winning tournaments, go ahead and let me know.
Again, not trying to be rude or anything, but I stand by my opinion. It's a fairly even match-up. If anyone has a slight advantage, it's Hayate.
I don't speak Japanese so I'll just have to get you the videos with the names, dw they'll be here. I'd love to see a great player behind Hayate at a extremely high level and there have been some but there's just much more powerful characters... like Ryu, Helena, Ayane, that just play the game itself better. I'd love to see Ryu stepped up a few notches. The guy is amazing and fun but I won't fall over and say he's not better in a match up against Hayate.
6-4 Ryu.
Now you can all be f*cking happy.