The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

[Pokerking87]

You should try putting one together anyway, for the sake of the MU chart.

Ok, i try. Here my personal opinion about the Eliot Match-Ups:

Eliot vs. Eliot 5-5
Eliot vs. Kasumi 3-7
Eliot vs. Alpha 3-7
Eliot vs. Fang 4-6
Eliot vs. Helena 5-5
Eliot vs. Zack 5-5
Eliot vs. Bayman 4-6
Eliot vs. Jann Lee 5-5
Eliot vs. Hayate 4-6
Eliot vs. Hitomi 5-5
Eliot vs. Tina 5-5
Eliot vs. Lisa 4-6
Eliot vs. Ayane 3-7
Eliot vs. Brad Wong 5-5
Eliot vs. Gen Fu 4-6
Eliot vs. Christie 3-7
Eliot vs. Kokoro 5-5
Eliot vs. Mila 4-6
Eliot vs. Rig 4-6
Eliot vs. Akira 5-5
Eliot vs. Bass 5-5
Eliot vs. Sarah 3-7
Eliot vs. Pai 5-5
Eliot vs. Hayabusa 4-6

5x 3-7
8x 4-6

Eliot is the lowest Lowtier.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

Eliot matchups

pretty much my exact matchup chart for him except i give Eliot vs Brad 3-7 in brads favor. his mixup and evasion potential runs circles around anything eliot can do to him and he to has a command side step with 4p8 that evades every attack eliot has not to mention his lay down stance and other dozens of crushing moves that makes that matchup a complete one-sided uphill battle for eliot.

i've been saying since the beginning when i first laid hands on him that he was low-tier but people think slapping a short range easily crushable i9 strike and parries that guarantee nothing worth a shit somehow alleviates his shittyness.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I fail to see how Eliot could be a 3-7 matchup to Kasumi, Christie, Alpha, Brad, and Sarah, but a 5-5 to Pai.

Perhaps you can elaborate?

 

[DontForkWitMe]

didn't notice the other matchups i'd say kasumi, alpha, sarah and pai are all 4-6 their favor over eliot. they are all much faster and have greater pressure tools and mixups over him but aren't evasive and eliot can still mount his own offense against them and can keep them guessing without worry about being evaded to hell and back .

eliots only 3-7 matchups are against evasive characters that have high crushing SS's like christie,bayman,brad and can completely avoid his offensive pressure to the point where all eliot can rely on are low throws which aren't viable at all...

 

[Bushido]

Not that experienced but it's worth a shot.
Kokoro's matchups based on mine and more experienced player's opinion
v Akira: 5-5
Alpha: 5.5-4.5
Ayane: 4-6
Bass: 6-4
Bayman: 4-6
Brad: 3-7
Christie: 4-6
Eliot: 6-4
Gen: 4-6
Hitomi: 4.5-5.5
Jann Lee: 4-6
Kasumi: 4-6
Kokoro: 5-5
Lei: 4-6
Mila: 4-6
Rig: 6-4
Sarah:3-7
Zack: 6-4

Might be wrong on a few, and I don't know Helena, Hayate, Busa, Pai, or Tina at all.

 

[NightAntilli]

Not that experienced but it's worth a shot.
Kokoro's matchups based on mine and more experienced player's opinion

*list*

Might be wrong on a few, and I don't know Helena, Hayate, Busa, Pai, or Tina at all.

Seems ok for the most part. Only one I really don't get is Brad being a worse matchup than Christie.

 

[Matt Ponton]

Okay, can we discuss Eliot vs Kokoro? I hear from one person it's 4-6, and another says 5-5.

I'm personally leaning towards 5-5 because I think both of their advantages don't really help each other in abusing the opponent's disadvantages.

 

[synce]

Kokoro vs Eliot 5-5 sounds right to me too. Adding to bushido's list

vs Alpha 5-5
vs Pai 5-5
vs Brad 4-6

 

[FlamingMuffin]

Not that experienced but it's worth a shot.
Kokoro's matchups based on mine and more experienced player's opinion

Ayane: 4-6
Brad: 3-7
Christie: 4-6
Eliot: 6-4
Kokoro: 5-5
Mila: 4-6
Rig: 6-4
Sarah:3-7

I can't say I agree with those ones.

Ayane 5-5:

What does Ayane have that puts it into her favour? Her main advantage is her spacing tools, but Kokoro can close the gap pretty safely (33P/66P/46P/66P+K). Apart from that, I don't see anything unique.

Brad 4-6:

(Repost) I don't see this matchup being as bad as Christie. Kokoro is faster than Brad and offers better damage. However, his stances are a pain and he has many ways to avoid her in-string grabs.

Chrisite 3-7:

Faster + JAK

Eliot: 5-5

He has his i9 and parries (Kokoro is heavily mid based). Kokoro has better counters and higher damage output. Again, I don't see anything overly advantageous for either.

Mila 5-5:

Once again, I don't see anything special about this. Kokoro has higher raw damage and more guaranteed throw damage. Mila has her tackle and her usual stuff.

Rig 5-5:

I don't know Rig well enough, but I don't see anything special either way. He can pressure decently enough and Kokoro has a harder time than a i9/i11/i12 character does.

Sarah 4-6:

Sarah definitely has the advantage but not 3-7 worthy. Her best tool is pressure, not evasion.

 

[Bushido]

Okay, can we discuss Eliot vs Kokoro? I hear from one person it's 4-6, and another says 5-5.

I'm personally leaning towards 5-5 because I think both of their advantages don't really help each other in abusing the opponent's disadvantages.

I was basing that on my personal experience against Eliot, but I looked into it, and I agree on 5-5

Kokoro vs Eliot 5-5 sounds right to me too. Adding to bushido's list

vs Alpha 5-5

I don't feel it should be even though. I think Kokoro has a slight advantage due to her having defense, being safer, and alpha's weakness: the wall.

 

[Bushido]

I can't say I agree with those ones.

Ayane 5-5:

What does Ayane have that puts it into her favour? Her main advantage is her spacing tools, but Kokoro can close the gap pretty safely (33P/66P/46P/66P+K). Apart from that, I don't see anything unique.

She's faster, has a lot of guaranteed setups, and her SS K is a sitdown stun which also gives her a free launcher.

 

[Belinea]

I fail to see how Eliot could be a 3-7 matchup to Kasumi, Christie, Alpha, Brad, and Sarah, but a 5-5 to Pai.

Perhaps you can elaborate?

It doesn't exactly answer your Pai question, but here's a post I made a few months back that I believe clarifies the difficultly Eliot has with these type of characters:

This is actually something I've talked about before, as dealing with rushdown characters is a problem he has always had. The problem stems from the fact that Eliot's moveset in actuality is deceptively slow. Beforehand his quickest moves were p (10i, high attack), k (13, high attack), 9k (also 13, high attack), then instant 3p (13, mid), and now his new 7p (9, another high). While it's great that he has a 9 frame attack, the only real purpose it serves is to give him yet another quick high attack - otherwise the move is actually kind of crap as it's both limited in use and range. Instant 3p has to be buffered but this becomes actually impossible to do when being pressured as you would have to come out of block first (and not only that, but if you do risk it and were holding F to block instead of , it's possible the move will glitch and 33p will come out instead. This glitch, present from doa4, makes it 100% impossible to free cancel into instant 3p). So essentially his quickest mid attack is rendered useless, leaving the only choice being high attacks. In such a situation you're going to want to avoid k and 9k as they have quite wide and predicable animations and leave you at too much disadvantage, leaving you with p or 7p. So basically Eliot is the same now as he always was, his only option beforehand being the jab, and after months of playing doa5 I don't think an attack that's 1 frame faster honestly helps him in such situations that much. In all honesty, it is probably better to jab than 7p anyway, seeing as you get the unholdable p(p), and a 3 way mix-up - with one of those options leaving Eliot safe. 7p offers very, very little to him. In my opinion a character such as Christie, with a 9 frame jab and 12 frame mid just shuts down Eliot completely, as he simply cannot match that speed, nor has the crushing capability he had in doa4 (...and I can only thank god that her pppp isn't guaranteed anymore after she breaks his neutral throw). 7p was a nice addiction to his arsenal, but honestly not what he needed. What he actually needed was for his mid attacks to be sped up. Eliot is a slow character.

I often go back and forth on who causes him the most trouble - a rushdown character, or a character with a good sidestep game. Honesty though, I don't think I've played someone good enough that knows to abuse his almost completely straight and un-tracking moveset weakness yet, but my head is telling me that characters that can do that are his biggest threats. Baymans' tank rolls for example would be a move he simply has no answer to, as it either crushes his tracking moves (ppk, h+k, kk) or beats it on sheer speed (4pk). It's not an over exaggeration to say that literally none of his attacks can hit Bayman in this instance.

As for his matchups, I don't what to say they're as grim as the numbers posted above would lead you to believe, but they kind of are. The only one I would change (and the only character I feel he has a positive matchup against) is Bass, which I put at 6-4, or maybe even 7-3 if I was feeling generous.

 

[FlamingMuffin]

She's faster, has a lot of guaranteed setups, and her SS K is a sitdown stun which also gives her a free launcher.

They are about the same speed (i10 jabs, Kokoro has i12 mid vs i13, Ayane has i12 low vs i13). Guaranteed setups apply to everyone, not just Kokoro (Kokoro herself has a lot of guarantees + psuedos). Ayane's SS K is not a sitdown. It stuns on NH or it launches on CH. It's fairly slow at i31 so it has a low chance of scoring that CH.

 

[synce]

Shouldn't Mila vs Kokoro be something like 6-4? I played a couple decent Koko's today with her and despite her new SST being garbage it was still wreaking havoc on Kokoro

 

[TRI Mike]

OK I've been playing quite a while since I got back and will do two of the characters I'm using right now to contribute:

Tina:
-Akira 5-5
-Alpha 5-5
-Ayane 4-6
-Bayman 6-4
-Bass 6-4
-Wong 5-5
-Christie 4-6
-Eliot 6-4
-Fu 5-5
-Busa 5-5
-Hayate 5-5
-Hele 5-5
-Hitomi -5-5
-Lee 5-5
-Kasumi 4-6
-Koko 5-5
-Lisa 5-5
-Fang 4-6
-Mila 5-5
-Pai 4-6
-Rig 5-5
-Sarah 4-6
-Zack 5-5

Basically, she's on even ground with pretty much everyone except maybe the faster characters that can make her lack of good pressure game be more noticeable. Still, her high damage output and nice mix-ups give her a solid chance against them.

Gen Fu:

-Akira 5-5
-Alpha 5-5
-Ayane 5-5
-Bayman 6-4
-Bass 6-4
-Wong 5-5
-Christie 4-6
-Eliot 7-3
-Busa 5-5
-Hayate 5-5
-Hele 5-5
-Hitomi -5-5
-Lee 5-5
-Kasumi 5-5
-Koko 5-5
-Lisa 5-5
-Fang 4-6
-Mila 5-5
-Pai 5-5
-Rig 5-5
-Sarah 4-6
-Tina 5-5
-Zack 5-5

To be honest, I think only Christie, Fang and Sarah are unfavorable match-ups for this guy. He's pretty much copy pasted from DOA2, 3 and 4 but his tools are still extremely solid and he can take on anyone on equal ground.

 

[J.D.E.]

I'm still waiting to hear what puts Eliot at 3-7/7-3 with some of his matches from the people that posted from Eliot players

Kasumi vs Eliot I have at 6-4 at best for Kasumi (maybe 5-5) because Eliot cannot successfully pressure like she can as except for the 9i 7P, everything else beats his. Eliot has a throw along with a few parries that'll help pin point his attacks against her. He also have to give himself some space against her to keep her off balanced.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

I'm still waiting to hear what puts Eliot at 3-7/7-3 with some of his matches from the people that posted from Eliot players

I already said why. evasive characters that can sidestep and high crush simultaneously completely shut down all his offensive options against them. he lacks any mid/low tracking moves that can deal with them and can't rely on anything other than to try to guess a low throw. mix that in with his already mediocrity of having one of the worst neutral games of the roster with attacks that leave him at disadvantage on normal hit, predictable slow strings, sub-par mixups, no guaranteed setups, no decent force tech setups etc.

 

[J.D.E.]

I already said why. evasive characters that can sidestep and high crush simultaneously completely shut down all his offensive options against them. he lacks any mid/low tracking moves that can deal with them and can't rely on anything other than to try to guess a low throw. mix that in with his already mediocrity of having one of the worst neutral games of the roster with attacks that leave him at disadvantage on normal hit, predictable slow strings, sub-par mixups, no guaranteed setups, no decent force tech setups etc.

Oh nevermind. I thought that you stated this for Kasumi. I seen your post. My bad.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Tina:

-Bayman 6-4

Gen Fu:

-Bayman 6-4

Okay. Glad to see some more Bayman input. What was it that made you come to these conclusions?

 

[TRI Mike]

I think that while Bayman is excellent, he might have a harder chance against Tina who has a similar profile but is faster. Tina's single-part grabs like and WR64 could be a serious problem for Bayman is he attempts parries against her in vain.

In Fu's case, he's also faster, has an insance damage input and I see the old man being able to put up with Bayman's tools in the right hands.