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The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

synce

synce

Well-Known Member
Ooh look at all that green next to Leifang... How about adding one more? Lei vs Alpha 6-4. It's that goddamn mid k counter and all those crushes
 
Jaguar360

Jaguar360

Well-Known Member
synce said:
Ooh look at all that green next to Leifang... How about adding one more? Lei vs Alpha 6-4. It's that goddamn mid k counter and all those crushes
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I agree for the most part, but something tells me it should be 5-5 because Alpha's B.U.R.S.T and 33T and her long range OH's balance out Lei's holds, parries, and crushes.
 
synce

synce

Well-Known Member
Maybe you're right, I just remembered Punishere or someone whining about Alpha but I'm not sure if it was 1.02 or 1.03. I do know that a good Leifang is more frustrating than some others though. Alpha's best moves are mid K, which you have to be really careful using against Lei, and 6H+K abuse makes it tough to grab her at mid range. BURST I feel is overrated unless they give Alpha a decent mid P launcher
 
VirtuaKazama

VirtuaKazama

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
News Team
NightAntilli said:
On another note.. As a Leifang player, I'll list her, as I think she matches up. Just my opinion. Some of them I have not investigated, but I base them on personal experience. Not the best way, but whatever.



Leifang VS
Akira 6-4: Akira heavily relies on punches. Fang's punch parry can deal with most of them. General low punching with Akira is also not really recommended. It'll become predictable, and Leifang will simply do a low advanced hold to punish. Akira's offense must come almost exclusively from his grabs.
Alpha 4-6: Alpha can space her out easily, and Leifang being crappy at long range, she'll have a lot of trouble keeping up. She has to wait for Alpha to close the gap. Leifang has one main tool to deal with Alpha, and that's her mid kick hold, which is not that easy to land against a good Alpha player. Speed wise, Alpha has the advantage as well. Leifang's OH game is kind of nullified when Alpha has so many attacks that put her in air state.
Ayane 5-5: Kind of a toss up. Up close, Leifang can probably dominate due to her parries and crushes. Although Ayane has her fair share of evasive moves as well. At long range, Leifang is pretty much at Ayane's mercy.
Bass 6-4: Leifang can dominate with her speed, and Bass can't exactly turtle either since her grabs/OHs are pretty good. She still needs to be careful about holding though, since Bass' grabs are very damaging.
Bayman 6-4: They both have great defensive options, but Leifang has the speed advantage. Bayman's tankroll is slow enough that it can still be hit by K2K or 4KK. So main thing to watch out for are the grabs/OHs for Leifang. But she has those too.
Brad 6-4: Leifang has low OHs, she has her mid kick hold, she has the speed, she has low crushes. Brad only has space control and confusion.
Christie 5-5: Christie dominates the spacing. She also has great kicks, so Leifang's Unshu is not reliable here. Fang does have the ability to shut down JAK though, although not in the most efficient way. Also, mid kicks are dangerous for Christie. And Leifang is great on defense, so Christie's speed advantage is less great. Seems to even out pretty well.
Eliot 6-4: Unshu parry plus mid kick hold. That is all.
Gen Fu 5-5: They both kind of struggle at long range, so that even out. Gen Fu outspeeds up close, but, relies a lot on punches, which makes Leifang's unshu useful. Gen Fu's mid kick launcher is only sidestepable when held, so, Leifang's mid kick hold damage is shut down.. Both have parries... All seems pretty even to me.
Hayate 5-5: Long range nightmare for Leifang. Up close he's not really a problem for the most part. But most of his tools are long range. If Hayate gets any chance to space, Leifang will have trouble shutting him down.
Helena 5.5-4.5: Although Leifang has low OHs, chances are small that she can land one. We all know how Helena plays in this game. It's hard to get a proper hold in when she's all over you. The tide can turn easily in the match, but, Leifang has a slight advantage due to her versatility.
Hitomi 6-4: Leifang has the advantage due to her crushes. Her parries and unshu also pose a problem for Hitomi. Mid kick defense is pretty equal, since they both can get a bunch of damage from a correct advanced hold. Hitomi has better long range tools, but, Leifang's defenses seem to work well against her tools.
Jann Lee 5-5: The space king. Yeah. That's an issue. Due to his nerfs however, the matchup became pretty even.
Kasumi 5-5: Kasumi's kicks are not the best, so, that leaves her quite vulnerable to Leifang's unshu shenanigans. On the flip side, mid kick holds are unlikely to happen, except air ones, which don't give as much damage. One of Leifang's major damage tools therefore is gone. Leifang's OHs are also a risk due to Kasumi's many air states. The highest risk for Leifang are the low attacks of Kasumi. You can't get too eager with her parries, or you'll get punished.
Kokoro 6-4: Leifang's main long range weakness is kind of nullified here, since Kokoro doesn't have any kicks to close the distance gap. Other than that, Leifang pretty much has superior tools across the board, although Kokoro's stuns are superior.
Lisa 5-5: Yes, Leifang can have the advantage on close range, but, Lisa spaces so well, that Leifang is left to guess a lot more than against most of the rest of the cast. Lisa's grabs do a LOT of damage too.
Mila 5-5: I honestly have no idea, so I left it like this. Mila is another spacer. But, to close the gap, she needs to use mid kicks a lot. Up close, fast punches are fairly easy to deal with for Leifang. Mila's OH will always remain something annoying, but, it's not considered a big advantage by any means..
Pai 5-5: Pai is really underrated. She has so many mixups, and great frame advantage moves. Combined with her speed, she can easily dominate. She probably has the most sit down stuns of any character in the game. Pai can simply go toe to toe with Leifang. The one who outguesses/outreads the other player, wins.
Rig 6-4: Leifang's crushes are enough to deal with him in general. For that, Rig has to be on the offensive though. In general, when Leifang attacks a spacing Rig, she'll get hit in the face. What doesn't work is her unshu parry and OHs. What still works great is her crushes, mid parry, and her mix ups.
Ryu 5-5: Same old story regarding long range vs short range, and high dmg mid kick hold vs Izuna.
Sarah 4-6: Sarah is too good. Great spacing, great crushes, superior mixups...
Tina 4.5-5.5: Tina's grabs do too much damage. Leifang can't hold/parry like she's used to. Tina's crushes are also good enough to disrupt most of her things.
Zack 7-3: Zack doesn't have many tools to deal with Leifang's versatility. Mid kicks are risky, his stance can be low OHed, his punches can be parried, lots of his moves crushed, and his long range isn't too great either...
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting up Leifang's matchups. Really appreciate it!
 
Saber

Saber

Well-Known Member
Pokerking87 said:
It seems Sarah is in advantage against nearly the complete roster! Have she any worse Matchup?
Click to expand...
Akira, Christie, Jann Lee and Leifang, according to the match-up chart.

Ayane has more match-up advantages than Sarah, though (her only bad match-up being Gen Fu) while Leifang and Kasumi both have zero match-ups in disadvantage.
 
Sly Bass

Sly Bass

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Pokerking87 said:
It seems Sarah is in advantage against nearly the complete roster! Have she any worse Matchup?
Click to expand...

Akira is pretty strong against her. She has a lot of strings that contain high punches or kicks, which Akira can parry. And his 2P gives a lot of options to open her up.

Bayman as well has a pretty good match up against her with his Tank Roll. Once you shut down her rush, she has a hard time regaining momentum.

If you have a hard time with her, review her move list. You'll see 3 common poke moves that are used to open you up. Know what they are and know the frames of her follow up attacks. It makes for better decision making.
 
Kurt

Kurt

New Member
Whats the general opinion on Akira? Some people say his biggest strenght from VF, vast arsenal of Mid Punches, is his biggest weakness, because all you need is Mid-Punch Hold.

He is linear, midpunch heavy, no strings, almost no lows, however isnt it just like VF, even if he has only 1~2 lows, people WILL block low because they fear his Guard Breaks, MidPunch/Throw Mixup?

Saying that Akira is predictable and easy to counter because of his Mid Punches is also not true, his move list is small, but he has plenty of awesome High/Mid/Low Kick and High Punches too, plenty of different moves to choose from, and on top of that he hits like a truck.

So IMO VF Characters are better than the Rest, they got stuff the other cast is lacking, Launchers etc, on top of that Sarah got her + Frames on block and many of her moves are cancelable, making her unpredictable, Akira has his Guard Breaks, strong and fast Launchers, a high risk/extreme reward Shoulder Ram that deals absurd damage and strong throw game, and lastly Pai is the Rushdown Queen

Agree?
 
Crext

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Mr. Wah said:
You can locate the latest update here as a Google Spreadsheet.
Click to expand...

May I ask how one conclude with these? Is it based of some statistics?

I would like to argue:

Hitomi vs Alpha-152:
It currently is 5, perhaps it should be 6 or even 7?
Defend: Hitomi's fear of getting countered in the 50/50 loops are less serious, and even escape able. Also there are plenty of opportunities to use high damage counters that wouldn't work on other characters.

Hitomi vs Christie:
It is currently 5, perhaps it should be 3?
Defend: Hitomi's backbone moves are mostly sidestep able, which is Christie's strong point. Also Christie got low stuns, better stun mix ups with 33/25 loops (Hitomi got mostly 50/50 loops), more speed, better range and most importantly counter high strikes (high crushes). As Hitomi generally got very weak lows, this makes Christie a particular difficult opponent as she is crouched for most if not all of her loops or ranged pokes. This does again reduce the guessing game as Christie knows Hitomi must use a lot more mid strikes than usually.

Hitomi vs Helena:
It is currently 5, perhaps it should be 4?
Defend: It is basically somewhat the same arguments as against Christie. Helena utilize low stances and can dodge even mid strikes. As Hitomi's weak game is low strikes this makes her a particular weak character against Helena up close where the exchange of loops is in Helena's favour.

Hitomi vs Bayman:
It is currently 5, perhaps it should be 4?
Defend: Again the somewhat same argument as against Christie applies, only not for low stances but sidesteps, or sidestep throws. Hitomi depends a lot on forwards strikes, thus this becomes a games of the minds, only that Bayman got more damage on the correct guesses.

Hitomi vs Brad Wong:
It is currently 5, perhaps it should be 6?
Defend: Hitomi's forwards roll counters Brad's ground stance, without any particular fear for retaliation. Standing Brad has generally no good counters against Hitomi's strong high- and midstrike game.

Would more than be up for discussion on the subjects though.

Guess I'm just making my own personal list for the rest aswell, though these 5 are the ones I'd argue the most:

Hitomi vs
Akira - 5
Alpha152 - 6,33
Ayane - 4
Bass - 5
Bayman - 4
Brad - 6
Christie - 2,67
Eliot - 5
Gen Fu - 5
Hayate - 5
Helena - 3,67
Hitomi - 5
Jann - 5
Kasumi - 5
Kokoro - 5
Leifang - 4
Lisa - 6
Mila - 3
Pai - 5
Rig - 5
Ryu - 5
Sarah - 4
Tina - 5
Zack - 6
 
Saber

Saber

Well-Known Member
Crext said:
Hitomi vs Christie:
It is currently 5, perhaps it should be 3?
Defend: Hitomi's backbone moves are mostly sidestep able, which is Christie's strong point. Also Christie got low stuns, better stun mix ups with 33/25 loops (Hitomi got mostly 50/50 loops), more speed, better range and most importantly counter high strikes (high crushes). As Hitomi generally got very weak lows, this makes Christie a particular difficult opponent as she is crouched for most if not all of her loops or ranged pokes. This does again reduce the guessing game as Christie knows Hitomi must use a lot more mid strikes than usually.
Click to expand...
I'd say she's even with Christie. Hitomi isn't linear, if at all, with a huge abundance of mid and low single-hit tracking moves (2KK, 2H+K, 2P+K, 4P, 1P, etc.) as well as in-string, thus shutting down JAK. And while yes, Hitomi does have generally weak lows, her 1K mixups are more than enough. If Hitomi lands a 2P or her punch parry, Christie doesn't have the advantage of a 9-frame jab. Hitomi wins the spacing game though, since her 46P and 236P pokes are superior to Christie's pokes.

In no way is this a 3-7 matchup for Hitomi because it's nowhere near as one-sided as Kokoro/Eliot vs Christie. I'd say it's definitely 5-5.

Crext said:
Hitomi vs Helena:
It is currently 5, perhaps it should be 4?
Defend: It is basically somewhat the same arguments as against Christie. Helena utilize low stances and can dodge even mid strikes. As Hitomi's weak game is low strikes this makes her a particular weak character against Helena up close where the exchange of loops is in Helena's favour.
Click to expand...
Hitomi can shut down BKH stance with 3H+K (true mid), 2P (which gives +1 on hit), 1P (15-frame tracking low), 1K (mixups) and her high-low string game. Helena has excellent mixups, but Hitomi's punch parry and advanced mid-kick hold should be able to deal with them, reducing the guessing game Helena's so good at. Hitomi also outspeeds Helena in everything, as well as being much safer than she is. Helena has a superior stun and mixup game and much better crushes, but Hitomi can has the tools to stop her even before she initiates stun.

It's 5-5, or 5.5-4.5 in Hitomi's favor on a good day.
 
Jaguar360

Jaguar360

Well-Known Member
Crext said:
May I ask how one conclude with these? Is it based of some statistics?

I would like to argue:

Hitomi vs Alpha-152:
It currently is 5, perhaps it should be 6 or even 7?
Defend: Hitomi's fear of getting countered in the 50/50 loops are less serious, and even escape able. Also there are plenty of opportunities to use high damage counters that wouldn't work on other characters.
Click to expand...

I would say it's five because of Alpha's long range offensive holds and her speed, not just because of B.U.R.S.T and her other throws. Alpha is just range and has more range. Maybe it could be 6-4 Hitomi, but I'm sticking with 5-5 for now. Any opinions from top Alpha and Hitomi players? synce
 
Omegan Eckhart

Omegan Eckhart

Well-Known Member
Alpha's speed is overrated. She doesn't even have an i11 mid punch, or an i12 mid, she's stuck with an i13 mid for some bizarre reason.
 
Jaguar360

Jaguar360

Well-Known Member
Her K string is pretty fast as well as her 6K string. It's mainly her kicks I guess, but Alpha is still a little faster than Hitomi.
 
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