DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[Edmund]

I hope I'm not too bold in saying this, but I do hope the top players and those who play competitively post more in this topic (and post more in general in FSD).

Over at Tekkenzaibatsu, they are already on their 8th thread discussing about the tier list. Yeah sometimes, the disagreements escalate into flame wars, but at least there's a discussion.

We also have tier lists by the top Korean players. And also the top Japanese players.

It's abit desserted at FSD sometimes. Please don't get mad at me for pointing this out.

 

[Crext]

I wonder why Momiji is so low?

Is was during a discussion somewhere. Momiji was apparently generally faster and her ranged game and mids into instant launchers, etc. did counter Hitomi's movement rather well. Also she relies more on kicks making parry a worse choice. Personally I'd put it at 5-5, but since I really didn't have extensive knowledge about the setup I didn't feel I could challenge it as much. I don't remember where the source was, but it is probably at the Momiji discussion somewhere.

That said there is no reason to not discuss it further, especially since we are at a new patch.

Why is Bayman vs Hitomi 6-4 for Bayman? Just wondering

As for Bayman this too would be input from a secondary party from before. This one I don't really disagree with though, as Bayman isn't harmed that much by being on frame disadvantage, which is Hitomi's strong suite against most characters. It is basically him holding more for more damage and throwing for more damage, while still staying on relative par with Hitomi otherwise.

I hope I'm not too bold in saying this, but I do hope the top players and those who play competitively post more in this topic...

... We also have tier lists by the top Korean players. And also the top Japanese players.

I somewhat agree with that feeling, one needs to work more on social trolling to make the community feel more alive (guess we are in a limbo until Marie gets around though). There also is the issue of the community being split up, as there are contribution from DoAW as well. Personally I feel this is a big weakness as not all the resources are gathered up at the same place. Even though "people in general" feel FSD is for "the pros" and DoAW is more casual, that is hardly the norm (for example Master is much more active on DoAW than here). But ye, agree with the sentiment, creds up for pointing it out!

As for the Japanese and Korean tier lists I'd be more than happy to see someone posts them from time to time, as I'd have a hard time translating them myself. (I might do the Japanese one though, if you got a link?)
They might be good for reflection.

 

[StrikerSashi]

The Japanese one is very close to our own at this point. Korean, I don't know much about.

EDIT: They still don't understand Gen Fu though. :v

EDIT: The reason, though, is that they've discovered our tier lists (meaning this thread). In general, they think our tiers are jokes but meanwhile, their idea of a tier list is "I think this character is too good" and they know this so more than a few people are influenced by our tier list.

Anyways, here's some Japlists (a few weeks old).

厨：Sarah、Akira, Kokoro、Hitomi、Christie、Kasumi、Jann Lee、Momiji、Rig
強：Hayate、Jacky、Ayane、Zack、Leifang、Leon、Rachel
並：Helena、Hayabusa、Pai、Gen Fu、Mila、Lisa、Marie、Bayman
弱：Brad、Tina、Ein、Eliot、Bass、Alpha

S：Helena、Christie、Hitomi、Kasumi、Sarah、Kokoro、Momiji、Hayate
A：Rig、Hayabusa、Mila、Lisa、Zack、Brad、Ayane、Bayman
B：、Jann Lee、Leifang、Gen Fu、Akira、Rachel、Pai、Jacky、Leon、Alpha
C：Eliot、Bass、Tina、Ein

Again, not representative of Japanese views and just random opinions. Don't take them too seriously.

 

[Xernuht]

Is was during a discussion somewhere. Momiji was apparently generally faster and her ranged game and mids into instant launchers, etc. did counter Hitomi's movement rather well. Also she relies more on kicks making parry a worse choice. Personally I'd put it at 5-5, but since I really didn't have extensive knowledge about the setup I didn't feel I could challenge it as much. I don't remember where the source was, but it is probably at the Momiji discussion somewhere.

That said there is no reason to not discuss it further, especially since we are at a new patch.

I'd say it's still 5-5.

 

[Crext]

Ye, I can see those from Japan. Especially I agree with Kokoro being way higher tiered than we put her as. I mean from the Tournaments I've seen from JPN she did win, and many of the top players used her (Bronze, etc).

For some reason people around here has "agreed" that she is bad, and there is no good champion that uses her to her potential. However the main basis for this in the discussions I've had is that she lacks tracking moves. I feel this is based on a misunderstood interpretation of how sidesteps and tracking works in this game. The mechanics are not as fine cut as in other games, and you can easily tracks with several other techniques than tracking moves. Just moving forward and don't stand block to directly go on counterattack are just some of many weaknesses I see among even tournament winning people, and I don't understand why this is. This is perhaps the biggest Achilles heel for the US and maybe EU communities compared to JPN or Asia in general.


I'll throw a fire torch right in there and put Christie and Kokoro at 5-5, as the recent tournament Mr. Wah and Emperor Cow was in had several examples of people deliberately picking Kokoro into Christie, and pulling it off quite confidently 2 times with 4 different players.

Let us just throw the complete list up there again for some overview and re-evaluation.

Kokoro vs
Akira - 5 --> 6 (Kokoro's Favour)
Alpha152 - 5
Ayane - 4 --> 5
Bass - 6 --> 5
Bayman - 5
Brad - 4 --> 5
Christie - 3 --> 5
Eliot - 4 --> 5
Gen Fu - 4 (Kokoro's Disfavour)
Hayate - 5
Helena - 4
Hitomi - 5 --> 6
Jann - 4
Kasumi - 5
Leifang - 4
Lisa - 5
Mila - 6
Pai - 5
Rig - 5
Ryu - 5 --> 6
Sarah - 5
Tina - 6 --> 5
Zack - 5
New crew:
Rachel - 4 --> 5
Ein - 5
Momiji - 5
Leon - 4 --> 5
Jacky - 5

I'd say it's still 5-5.

Setting it to 5-5. As mentioned, I agree with you, and if you second voice it it can't be that silly.

 

[jjinkou2]

I'll throw a fire torch right in there and put Christie and Kokoro at 5-5, as the recent tournament Mr. Wah and Emperor Cow was in had several examples of people deliberately picking Kokoro into Christie, and pulling it off quite confidently 2 times with 4 different players.

...

Christie - 3 --> 5

small typo error here as you mentionned a 5-5.

But i really need an explanation here as all the sub forum of kokoro is full of threads "how can i deal against christie." The mere basic move Jak has no effective answer provided by this community. It would be also interesting to analyse a JP match between christie / kokoro.

 

[Tenryuga]

Crext the 236K nerf is not game breaking to Hitomi it's game breaking to YOU since it was a huge part of YOUR game. Since it's not -1 anymore you can't frame trap people that try to retalitate with mids with jab anymore or beat 14i+ lows with your mids. That and the fact that it is now grappler punishable are the what has changed about the move. You can still parry after it, you can still crush after it you can still SS really the only thing you can't do after it right now is jab. Do you understand how ridiculous it sounds for you to be saying that this change is a devestating nerf? Especially since occasionally the players respond to strings with 236K by fuzzy guarding or ducking anyway so the move hardly lands? I mean yes she lost 2- 3 points of damage on her standard grabs does that really make a difference? Her 33T on electric walls is still doing 91 damage on NH and 129 on hi counter with the damage nerf. Her strike damage output remains unchanged and is still high as hell. She probably has the highest wall damage in the game right now coupled with great footsies and whiff punishment capabilities. 4P+Ks speed buff actually makes it a viable move on a stunned opponent on the opponents wakeup and during footsies / spacing. This character is fine go into the lab and learn to lay off 236K; You'll see she has many stronger tools than that kick I assure you.

As for Ein his damage buffs and 4P+K buff are exceptionally helpful to him but they do not address any of the problems he has. They just take a little bit of the workload off our back so he is pretty much in the same spot as before which is near the bottom of mid tier.

Also the community has an answer to Jak: mid or low tracking. It's just some of the characters in the game don't have those tools and lack the string-retrackability to hit Jak.

 

[samuraihachi]

Wait a minute…. according to this list, Akira is the worst VF character? I understand Sarah being S tier but I'm confused why Akira is placed at C or why Jacky is at B.

 

[StrikerSashi]

But i really need an explanation here as all the sub forum of kokoro is full of threads "how can i deal against christie." The mere basic move Jak has no effective answer provided by this community. It would be also interesting to analyse a JP match between christie / kokoro.

Well, in theory, you just 6P6P. It doesn't track, but it'll still realign and hit. Christie can just double JAK, though. You can low throw, but that's committing pretty hard. But that shit isn't 5-5.

 

[Crext]

Crext the 236K nerf is not game breaking to Hitomi it's game breaking to YOU since it was a huge part of YOUR game. Since it's not -1 anymore you can't frame trap people that try to retalitate with mids with jab anymore or beat 14i+ lows with your mids. That and the fact that it is now grappler punishable are the what has changed about the move. You can still parry after it, you can still crush after it you can still SS really the only thing you can't do after it right now is jab. Do you understand how ridiculous it sounds for you to be saying that this change is a devestating nerf? Especially since occasionally the players respond to strings with 236K by fuzzy guarding or ducking anyway so the move hardly lands? I mean yes she lost 2- 3 points of damage on her standard grabs does that really make a difference? Her 33T on electric walls is still doing 91 damage on NH and 129 on hi counter with the damage nerf. Her strike damage output remains unchanged and is still high as hell. She probably has the highest wall damage in the game right now coupled with great footsies and whiff punishment capabilities. 4P+Ks speed buff actually makes it a viable move on a stunned opponent on the opponents wakeup and during footsies / spacing. This character is fine go into the lab and learn to lay off 236K; You'll see she has many stronger tools than that kick I assure you.

As for Ein his damage buffs and 4P+K buff are exceptionally helpful to him but they do not address any of the problems he has. They just take a little bit of the workload off our back so he is pretty much in the same spot as before which is near the bottom of mid tier.

Also the community has an answer to Jak: mid or low tracking. It's just some of the characters in the game don't have those tools and lack the string-retrackability to hit Jak.

Aye, I did mention this, that it probably has been more of a nerf against me than most people. I won't try and hide it either, as it probably is the case. However I do not say that it is devastating, and if it comes off like that then just recalibrate. That said it doesn't mean it goes out as totally meaningless either. This is why I only touch characters like Bass and Tina in regards to rating. I only has recommended to switch Tina and Bass in regards to these new changes, no other characters. The recommended change to Zack and Gen Fu is basically because I viewed them as rated too low from before. If you want to challenge it, then I got no issues with that, knock yourself out, and I won't take up the 236k nerf as an argument at all. When it comes to Bass and Tina, Bass as an example now has more options to counter with, which makes punch parry less effective as an option. I know you still can punch parry, but now Bass can kick me mid, high, low, he can punch me mid, high, low, he can basically counter with anything, as he could not do so before. That effectively takes this option off the table as you know the odds will be in your disfavor, and I can tell you that Bass pulls the strongest punch of everyone given the opportunity.

Well, in theory, you just 6P6P. It doesn't track, but it'll still realign and hit. Christie can just double JAK, though. You can low throw, but that's committing pretty hard. But that shit isn't 5-5.

I guess I can answer this with what has already been said.

Ye, I can see those from Japan. Especially I agree with Kokoro being way higher tiered than we put her as. I mean from the Tournaments I've seen from JPN she did win, and many of the top players used her (Bronze, etc).

For some reason people around here has "agreed" that she is bad, and there is no good champion that uses her to her potential. However the main basis for this in the discussions I've had is that she lacks tracking moves. I feel this is based on a misunderstood interpretation of how sidesteps and tracking works in this game. The mechanics are not as fine cut as in other games, and you can easily tracks with several other techniques than tracking moves. Just moving forward and don't stand block to directly go on counterattack are just some of many weaknesses I see among even tournament winning people, and I don't understand why this is. This is perhaps the biggest Achilles heel for the US and maybe EU communities compared to JPN or Asia in general.

I'll throw a fire torch right in there and put Christie and Kokoro at 5-5, as the recent tournament Mr. Wah and Emperor Cow was in had several examples of people deliberately picking Kokoro into Christie, and pulling it off quite confidently 2 times with 4 different players.

I'll try find the video, just give me a sec.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I watched the matches but it was just the Kokoros being really on point. Fuwachan has really good game sense. You can't base matchups off of stuff like that.

 

[Tenryuga]

Kokoro vs Christie is 6-4 Christie IMO. I always thought 7-3 was way too far fetched and lopsided a number for that MU. These Japanese players make 6-4 believable as a 6-4 MU is just uphill but winnable whereas in a 7-3 the character just has no solid answers to anything and is struggling hardbody.

 

[Brute]

There are some weird anomalies, sure. But in general, I'm seeing some similarities, actually. Sarah, Christie and the like tend to be at the top with Tina, Bass and that crew at the bottom.

 

[Crext]

I watched the matches but it was just the Kokoros being really on point. Fuwachan has really good game sense. You can't base matchups off of stuff like that.

1:15:00 into the video. You can see one example. It was not the best one, I tried to find another one which illustrated it better but I just can't find it no matter how much I look. I think it is in the same video.

Anyways, here you can see Kokoro just brawling the JAKs.

Sunsui () has a high tracking second .

She uses it to hit twice. Once she hit her during the JAK with the last , because the high will track so you'll whiff that sure, but your movement is faster than Christie's follow up attack and the last mid hits. Also, you don't need that good timing. As shown earlier she actually hit a high , again during the attack animation as Christie goes out of crouching during that stage. Further on she uses directly to counter JAK (No it does not track). These are just examples, and you can do it in many more ways. I don't think she hit a single JAK.

The clue is that the fastest attack from JAK is 39 frames (zomg)! This is an extremely long time to react, or to have attack patterns (resets, chains with partial tracking, etc). Also, none of these have SS into the final form, and most not crouching state. All of them can be countered in the final stage. So there you have it folks, the solution to beating JAK. Is it simple? No, you have to research the different combined chains with delays and all to understand when you got the upper hand. Some chains will not work well against Christie. If you have not mastered delay and free cancel to a decent level with quick subsection, then you will get facesplashed.

Sure, you can say that this Kokoro player is way better than the opponent, and it might be true as he made it to Nr. 2 playing only as Kokoro. But this stuff is not that hard to do, really. I do it all the time, and my Kokoro is not great at all. Sure, you have to read your opponent a little, but that is part of the game. If she opens up with JAK you often do have time to reset first miss, free cancel, (press forward), and poke again or worst case block. She can't hold during that phase so you can (12 frames) and either force her into a block after the first JAK animation, get a counter hit, or into another JAK where you'll beat her out with the complete Sunsui. If you know she got JAK on her brain use chains like Sunsui and when you see the JAK finish it as quickly as you can. By chance you'd either hit the second high or the last mid .

You can also hit with low strikes during the end of the JAK animation if you suspect either block or attack (90% of the JAK follow ups, as few do JAK --> JAK).

As an end note, I agree that Kokoro vs Christie is in Christie's favor (Prob. 6-4). I'm just putting on the face of one extreme to get a discussion going. I really don't feel JAK is a "Kokoro has no answer to this"-move. You just have to implement brains rather than muscle memory.

 

[AkaShocka]

The fastest move from jak is not 39 frames.... I dont know what the fastest move from jak is but jak H+K is 27 frames and that move even seems to come out fast but it is actually slow. Every move from jak is fast except jak 4p. That is the only move from jak that you can actually see coming.

 

[Crext]

The fastest move from jak is not 39 frames.... I dont know what the fastest move from jak is but jak H+K is 27 frames and that move even seems to come out fast but it is actually slow. Every move from jak is fast except jak 4p. That is the only move from jak that you can actually see coming.

I think it is counting the initial JAK which is a none damage move. I don't know the exact frames for JAK alone, but according to Christie's Frame data here on FSD, the fastest potential is stated to be 39 (that actually surprised even me, I've mostly done it on the feel. I knew I had good time, but not that good), and I am assuming that is including the JAK. You react to the JAK, not the move following the JAK.

 

[jjinkou2]

Just my comprehension about Frame data: I can see that Jak is 17 frames so why do you consider that is slower than Jak ? Is that because we need to add 39 to 17 ?

 

[Crext]

Just my comprehension about Frame data: I can see that Jak is 17 frames so why do you consider that is slower than Jak ? Is that because we need to add 39 to 17 ?

You are correct.

 

[synce]

It's hard to take this list seriously when the current Alpha is not in her own tier at the bottom. I haven't played in months though so maybe I missed something new. That 1.04 changelog is a joke though. 99% nerfs across the board to a cast of already weak characters

 

[QueenJakheiho]

The fastest move from jak is not 39 frames.... I dont know what the fastest move from jak is but jak H+K is 27 frames and that move even seems to come out fast but it is actually slow. Every move from jak is fast except jak 4p. That is the only move from jak that you can actually see coming.

Jakheiho Stance Transition - 12 Frames
Jak P - 39 Frames maximize delayable into 56 Frames
Jak H+K - 39 Frames not 27

Where are her throws in the frame data?