DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
To be fair, you're the only real Hayabusa I've fought, Brute.
lol

That said, can you add anything yourself?
Well, as we know, Hayabusa has trouble opening people up due to his speed, lows and mix-ups. Thus, his neutral game is largely defensive and usually involves controlling space. His long-range tools aren't incredibly tricky, but they do alter footwork on the opponents' side, and abusing these is often how Hayabusa tries to regain a degree of control in the neutral game. Momiji gives him a lot of problems here. She can cover a lot of distance very quickly, often snubbing Hayabusa's usual tools with crushes and the like. Some of her moves have deceptively long reach and excel at keep-out (such as 2H+K, 9K, certain mid Ks, etc.). This gives her comparable whiff punishment, something Hayabusa doesn't regularly deal with. Hayabusa's range options are also prone to side-steps because they are single-strike non-tracking advances. Momiji can cover great distance with multiple strikes and tracking.
Up close, Hayabusa still has the disadvantage despite comparable hit level speeds, given that Momiji is safer and has better mix-ups. They have similar moves in some regards, but Momiji's are just better at opening someone up. Take 2H+K for example. It may no longer crush mids, but that doesn't make it equivalent to Hayabusa's version. Hers has a much longer and safer reach, and her 1P2K to 1PP mix-up's advantages should be obvious, even without considering the range of her 1P compared to Ryu's. Comparing their guard breaks... well... yeah. We all know about Hayabusa's GBs in 5U...
Momiji has good stuns, like Ryu, and can play the stun game if she chooses, or go for stun-launch situations. Her Shoho is less damaging than Ryu's, but is still a good chunk of damage for a juggle at any threshold level. She can chain sit-down stuns and has some great rapid-fire stun tools. Hayabusa's stun tools are slower, and arguably more telegraphed. That said, they are still amazing. His stun game I don't consider "lacking" to Momiji's at all, especially considering his bait reward. But, they play very differently, each with their own trade-offs there. Momiji with mix-ups, stun, and speed pressure, Hayabusa with damage, huge stuns and guarantees.
Oki is hard to gauge because being perfectly honest, I've yet to see a Momiji player utilize her oki options to their full potential. So I'll leave it at this: both have good oki options, but not excellent.

So what does Hayabusa bring to the table in this match-up? Like you said: damage. He out-classes her in damage on almost every front. This is especially the case when it comes to holds and throw damage. However, Momiji can be tricky for him to pin down with these. Her safety and delays can be very difficult to throw punish (as can keeping her still long enough to tick-throw given her crushes and mobility). Additionally, she is not bound by predictable hit-level patterns, particularly regarding punches. You don't necessarily see the same openings with punches to get his trademark izuna counters. Frequently launches with high kicks, blows you up with mid kicks and trips you with low kicks. Hayabusa does have an expert mid K hold, but it's not all that scary as opposed to his normal scare factor: the izuna holds. Even some of her attacks like 1PP can be extremely hard to izuna because they sweep so much range, you can whiff an expert low hold trying to grab the 1P which whiffs a foot off, and then get snagged by the 1PP instead.
Hayabusa also get his gimmicks. Momiji also gets gimmicks, but they function differently than Ryu's. But again, they're a hard factor here. Much like the expert holds, timing his ongyoin parry against Momiji is particularly tricky since she comes at you at so many different levels at different ranges with different speeds and different follow-ups. Her frequently crushing airborne/crouching state makes some typical options very risky and unwise, such as ongyoin 8T or 6P+K.

So basically Hayabusa gets snubbed by Momiji at long-range, snubbed at short range, less mix-ups, less safety, reduced gimmick efficiency, some trade-offs in the stun department and comparable oki, and in return he gets better damage output.

When factoring how that would look in a MU, consider the power vs speed/mixup/rushdown/neutral dominating balance in the game at large. Bass and Leon have huge damage output, but rarely are they considered to have favorable match-ups to, say, Pai, who has low damage output but dominates the neutral game. Same applies to Helena, Chrisite or Sarah (though Sarah's damage... yeah, won't go into that). Ultimately, dominating the neutral game, having good mix-ups, having safety, etc. is what makes you excel in this game. In this instance, Momiji takes that over Hayabusa.
 
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Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
lol


Well, as we know, Hayabusa has trouble opening people up due to his speed, lows and mix-ups. Thus, his neutral game is largely defensive and usually involves controlling space. His long-range tools aren't incredibly tricky, but they do alter footwork on the opponents' side, and abusing these is often how Hayabusa tries to regain a degree of control in the neutral game. Momiji gives him a lot of problems here. She can cover a lot of distance very quickly, often snubbing Hayabusa's usual tools with crushes and the like. Some of her moves have deceptively long reach and excel at keep-out (such as 2H+K, 9K, certain mid Ks, etc.). This gives her comparable whiff punishment, something Hayabusa doesn't regularly deal with. Hayabusa's range options are also prone to side-steps because they are single-strike non-tracking advances. Momiji can cover great distance with multiple strikes and tracking.
Up close, Hayabusa still has the disadvantage despite comparable hit level speeds, given that Momiji is safer and has better mix-ups. They have similar moves in some regards, but Momiji's are just better at opening someone up. Take 2H+K for example. It may no longer crush mids, but that doesn't make it equivalent to Hayabusa's version. Hers has a much longer and safer reach, and her 1P2K to 1PP mix-up's advantages should be obvious, even without considering the range of her 1P compared to Ryu's. Comparing their guard breaks... well... yeah. We all know about Hayabusa's GBs in 5U...
Momiji has good stuns, like Ryu, and can play the stun game if she chooses, or go for stun-launch situations. Her Shoho is less damaging than Ryu's, but is still a good chunk of damage for a juggle at any threshold level. She can chain sit-down stuns and has some great rapid-fire stun tools. Hayabusa's stun tools are slower, and arguably more telegraphed. That said, they are still amazing. His stun game I don't consider "lacking" to Momiji's at all, especially considering his bait reward. But, they play very differently, each with their own trade-offs there. Momiji with mix-ups, stun, and speed pressure, Hayabusa with damage, huge stuns and guarantees.
Oki is hard to gauge because being perfectly honest, I've yet to see a Momiji player utilize her oki options to their full potential. So I'll leave it at this: both have good oki options, but not excellent.

So what does Hayabusa bring to the table in this match-up? Like you said: damage. He out-classes her in damage on almost every front. This is especially the case when it comes to holds and throw damage. However, Momiji can be tricky for him to pin down with these. Her safety and delays can be very difficult to throw punish (as can keeping her still long enough to tick-throw given her crushes and mobility). Additionally, she is not bound by predictable hit-level patterns, particularly regarding punches. You don't necessarily see the same openings with punches to get his trademark izuna counters. Frequently launches with high kicks, blows you up with mid kicks and trips you with low kicks. Hayabusa does have an expert mid K hold, but it's not all that scary as opposed to his normal scare factor: the izuna holds. Even some of her attacks like 1PP can be extremely hard to izuna because they sweep so much range, you can whiff an expert low hold trying to grab the 1P which whiffs a foot off, and then get snagged by the 1PP instead.
Hayabusa also get his gimmicks. Momiji also gets gimmicks, but they function differently than Ryu's. But again, they're a hard factor here. Much like the expert holds, timing his ongyoin parry against Momiji is particularly tricky since she comes at you at so many different levels at different ranges with different speeds and different follow-ups. Her frequently crushing airborne/crouching state makes some typical options very risky and unwise, such as ongyoin 8T or 6P+K.

So basically Hayabusa gets snubbed by Momiji at long-range, snubbed at short range, less mix-ups, less safety, reduced gimmick efficiency, some trade-offs in the stun department and comparable oki, and in return he gets better damage output.

When factoring how that would look in a MU, consider the power vs speed/mixup/rushdown/neutral dominating balance in the game at large. Bass and Leon have huge damage output, but rarely are they considered to have favorable match-ups to, say, Pai, who has low damage output but dominates the neutral game. Same applies to Helena, Chrisite or Sarah (though Sarah's damage... yeah, won't go into that). Ultimately, dominating the neutral game, having good mix-ups, having safety, etc. is what makes you excel in this game. In this instance, Momiji takes that over Hayabusa.

Pending Match-up rating from massive wall of text.
 

Xernuht

Well-Known Member
lol


Well, as we know, Hayabusa has trouble opening people up due to his speed, lows and mix-ups. Thus, his neutral game is largely defensive and usually involves controlling space. His long-range tools aren't incredibly tricky, but they do alter footwork on the opponents' side, and abusing these is often how Hayabusa tries to regain a degree of control in the neutral game. Momiji gives him a lot of problems here. She can cover a lot of distance very quickly, often snubbing Hayabusa's usual tools with crushes and the like. Some of her moves have deceptively long reach and excel at keep-out (such as 2H+K, 9K, certain mid Ks, etc.). This gives her comparable whiff punishment, something Hayabusa doesn't regularly deal with. Hayabusa's range options are also prone to side-steps because they are single-strike non-tracking advances. Momiji can cover great distance with multiple strikes and tracking.
Up close, Hayabusa still has the disadvantage despite comparable hit level speeds, given that Momiji is safer and has better mix-ups. They have similar moves in some regards, but Momiji's are just better at opening someone up. Take 2H+K for example. It may no longer crush mids, but that doesn't make it equivalent to Hayabusa's version. Hers has a much longer and safer reach, and her 1P2K to 1PP mix-up's advantages should be obvious, even without considering the range of her 1P compared to Ryu's. Comparing their guard breaks... well... yeah. We all know about Hayabusa's GBs in 5U...
Momiji has good stuns, like Ryu, and can play the stun game if she chooses, or go for stun-launch situations. Her Shoho is less damaging than Ryu's, but is still a good chunk of damage for a juggle at any threshold level. She can chain sit-down stuns and has some great rapid-fire stun tools. Hayabusa's stun tools are slower, and arguably more telegraphed. That said, they are still amazing. His stun game I don't consider "lacking" to Momiji's at all, especially considering his bait reward. But, they play very differently, each with their own trade-offs there. Momiji with mix-ups, stun, and speed pressure, Hayabusa with damage, huge stuns and guarantees.
Oki is hard to gauge because being perfectly honest, I've yet to see a Momiji player utilize her oki options to their full potential. So I'll leave it at this: both have good oki options, but not excellent.

So what does Hayabusa bring to the table in this match-up? Like you said: damage. He out-classes her in damage on almost every front. This is especially the case when it comes to holds and throw damage. However, Momiji can be tricky for him to pin down with these. Her safety and delays can be very difficult to throw punish (as can keeping her still long enough to tick-throw given her crushes and mobility). Additionally, she is not bound by predictable hit-level patterns, particularly regarding punches. You don't necessarily see the same openings with punches to get his trademark izuna counters. Frequently launches with high kicks, blows you up with mid kicks and trips you with low kicks. Hayabusa does have an expert mid K hold, but it's not all that scary as opposed to his normal scare factor: the izuna holds. Even some of her attacks like 1PP can be extremely hard to izuna because they sweep so much range, you can whiff an expert low hold trying to grab the 1P which whiffs a foot off, and then get snagged by the 1PP instead.
Hayabusa also get his gimmicks. Momiji also gets gimmicks, but they function differently than Ryu's. But again, they're a hard factor here. Much like the expert holds, timing his ongyoin parry against Momiji is particularly tricky since she comes at you at so many different levels at different ranges with different speeds and different follow-ups. Her frequently crushing airborne/crouching state makes some typical options very risky and unwise, such as ongyoin 8T or 6P+K.

So basically Hayabusa gets snubbed by Momiji at long-range, snubbed at short range, less mix-ups, less safety, reduced gimmick efficiency, some trade-offs in the stun department and comparable oki, and in return he gets better damage output.

When factoring how that would look in a MU, consider the power vs speed/mixup/rushdown/neutral dominating balance in the game at large. Bass and Leon have huge damage output, but rarely are they considered to have favorable match-ups to, say, Pai, who has low damage output but dominates the neutral game. Same applies to Helena, Chrisite or Sarah (though Sarah's damage... yeah, won't go into that). Ultimately, dominating the neutral game, having good mix-ups, having safety, etc. is what makes you excel in this game. In this instance, Momiji takes that over Hayabusa.

Wonderful. I couldn't say it any better. Seriously, I couldn't.

Almost sounds like a 6-4 for Momiji.
 

Pictured Mind

Well-Known Member
I guess that scared him away. People are so afraid of numbers these days.

I think it's because people don't know how to do it, me included.
I think in DOA the numbers are mostly 5-5, 6-5 or maybe 7-3 in weird cases. Just because of the triangle system. If Rachel counters all of Christies fast strikes, Rachel can win. Even tho' Rachel sucks against Christie in most cases.

Triangle system. <3
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna toss out my numbers for Ein as of now:

Rapes (6-4): Brad Wong.

Get's raped by (4-6): Christie, Helena, Kasumi, Ayane, VF characters except Jacky.

May the better player win (5-5): Everybody else.
 
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Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
So... what is it that makes Ein bad/average?

Ein isn't bad in this game but he is average. What holds him back is his lack of good stun initiatiors (most of his stun initiators and some stuns in general can be SE to not allow followups), lack of tracking and lack of ability to open his opponent up and fuction in close range outside of using 2P. Let's take a look at his P strings:

PPP - Unsafe mid knockback. Can be charged for + frames. This string would be alright if Ein could actually keep somebody blocking in close quarters.

PKK - This is an EXCEPTIONAL CH tool for Ein. PK is a natural combo on counter hit and PKK might as well be a 3 in 1 because of how quickly the opponent must hold to catch it. I have had very few players hold this when I use it. It leads to 80+ damage juggles and 145 damage if they hold after PK.

PP2K - Low poke with tracking followups that are dealt with by ducking. This stun allows for a limited stun game if he follows with 3K (This is the only move that can connect after it that allows stun game, otherwise he must use 46P or 236P). This is because due to the pushback, 3KK will whiff.

PP6P - Arguably his best pressure string because the followups are a semi-safe wall splatting mid kick, a unsafe mid punch crumple stun and a low sweep that tracks. The stun on the 6P isn't very deep; you can SE and he won't be able to extend stun at all unless he commits to the mid punch crumple.

The problem lies in the fact that after PP (which is -7 on block), he has no reliable mid, tracking or delays to keep the opponent blocking. PPP is just an knockback; This is good at a wall but midscreen the unsafety isn't worth that knockback. PP6P is high, and PP2K is low, meaning if you duck after blocking PP you evade two of his options with relatively small risk because of what I stated earlier.

Since his strings are not that good this makes his offense poke based more often than not. This would not be bad at all if he had VF character frames on his pokes but he does not. He only has them on his 2P which is his best tool in close combat alongside 3P and 4P.

3P is arguably the best mid punch in the game. It is safe and gives a stun of +40 meaning I have enough time to react to your holds or SE appropriately. Getting caught by this move is a VERY shitty situation for the opponent because Ein can work his stun - launch game which is very strong and what he was built to do.

4P is a great tracking move even though it is a high, it is 13 frames, stuns on NH and puts opponents into a shitty situation as well because 4PPP is a launcher, and 4P2KP is a laucher. When they get stunned by this move they have to deal with the possibility of taking around 60+ on NH and 72+ on CH. If they try to hold the launcher Ein profits because he can then use a deep a stun to set up a more rewarding critical level 2 launch or they take a 33T (105 damage on Hi counter).

2P is 13 frames and is +1. This allows him to abuse it against people with 13i mids when it hits as along as they don't sidestep. It sets up alot for him and is his saving grace in close combat.

Since Ein is terrible in close range he must play a strong footsies / spacing game which he is well equipped to do. 46P and 236P are fast whiff punishers that allow him to reap the benefits of the enviornment and dangerzones. 4P can be used as a whiff punisher in close range due to the NH stun. 6P+K while slow has massive range. This strong range game of his is pretty much his lifeline because if he didnt have this he would indeed suck ass in this game. Players only say he is bad because most don't have the patience to play him this way or don't have the skill to do it because pretty much Ein being forced to play this way means he is entirely dependent on the opponent making mistakes, or the players ability to MAKE opponents make mistakes.

All it would take to improve Ein is to increase the duration of some of his lighter stuns, give him some tracking in his strings, give him a good MID (with some nice delay) in his strings and his 14i 6P+K so that in both close range and during spacing he has a reliable move that will cause a stun that he can reap the benefits of.
 
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J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I guess I'll post what type of character that she is since no one really knows. Kasumi is still very good in Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate. She got nerfed in terms of damage & the increase of the health bar. However, she also received some decent buffs in a few tools that helps her deal with opponents a little bit better than before now.

Yes, she lost H+K 6K as a guaranteed launcher, but has 9K in place of it. Even 66P works from it. She gets a force tech (+8) from H+K 66PP P+K if the opponent likes to slow escape. PPK & 44PPK works the same way, still leading to decent damage despite the decrease in her damage. This move is also supposed to be holdable in the next patch which is never a good thing, but it will still be one of her best tools, just now the opponent gets a reward now for guessing right.

4H+K has to be one of her best tools. It's safe at -6. She has 2 2-in-1's guaranteed (3PP, 6KK), 4P, & 3P (small launcher) all guaranteed that works extending the stun game. 4PK is good quick launcher after it since the 4P is guaranteed, causes a sit-down stun (still from vanilla), bounds giving her a small juggle follow-up, wall hits, & causes guessing of course.

3PK/4K at 1st I thought were dumb, but they're actually very good wall game tools edited on with the wall game that she already has. Both of them give her a 2P just like the 33P wall hitters & is universal meaning that they work on all weight classes. Yes, they are holdable, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't still have 4H+K, 9K, 3KK, 66P, 6KK, 2KK, PP6P6K, 6P6K, or even 6PKK to look out for. On the plus side, in the recent patch, 3PKP, 4KP both received a launch height buff. After 1st stun from a poke like 6P or 4P, they shoot up to a max of 115 pts of damage on CH (The 1.05 patch made them stance dependant).

For CB, this is one that I don't get from other people who play her. While she really doesn't need a CB, she really only needs 2 follows, 3 at the most for each class, but you'll see them go out of their way to use a ton. Same thing for her PL, 236T, 46H, 1T, & 1H (only need 1, has universal juggle) follow ups for each class. She has one that does a ton of damage for all weights which is Freestep around to their backs then 4H+K KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK. That follow up alone is doing 130+ lol. Then of course, you have your wall juggles. The extra follow up that could be used is for smaller stages like The Sweat & such.

Sometimes 6P (11i mid) in match ups is bothersome because of the hitbox issue. Certain characters have moves that will beat it out like Helena's 33P, Lei Fang's 1PP, & then Kokoro BT P+K, but other characters have this issue too. However, she has 4P (12i mid) in it's place that will work.

P+K/P6P does her wonders in certain match ups now. These also had a hitbox issue that received a buff. The fact that the moves track speaks volumes.

Also, she doesn't have to worry about dealing with wakeups with 9P+K & 7P. 9P & 9K are risk vs reward options with 9P jumping over for BT 4P launcher, footsweep & 9K having to time the low wakeup & score a CH.

She also has good oki options with some hard knockdowns to her disposals like 4P2K etc. Overall, she's still a character with great tools but took a slight nerf in terms of damage. This was just a post for people who didn't really know what was going on with her. She can be anything but bad in the game.
 
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Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'm gonna toss out my numbers for Ein as of now:

Rapes (6-4): Brad Wong.

Get's raped by (4-6): Christie, Helena, Kasumi, Ayane, Hayate, VF characters except Jacky.

May the better player win (5-5): Everybody else.

Ye, I actually saw you post this in the Ein thread and edited it in then. I am observant you see! *nods*~yes, yes
 

Prince Adon

Best in the World!!!
Premium Donor
I don't even think people even understand DOA5U triangle system. It's not really a uniquely "balanced" one anymore. I doubt people realizes how many characters have unholdable/hold resisting frames in their strings, and the block stuns. Because of this the hold system doesn't make things "5-5", or "6-4", like it did before. The hold system isn't the same for every character. Just putting this out there.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
I don't even think people even understand DOA5U triangle system. It's not really a uniquely "balanced" one anymore. I doubt people realizes how many characters have unholdable/hold resisting frames in their strings, and the block stuns. Because of this the hold system doesn't make things "5-5", or "6-4", like it did before. The hold system isn't the same for every character. Just putting this out there.


To add on to this you guys that are saying holds makes a 7-3 MU a 6-4 are only considering the disadvantaged party. You don't consider how the character with the advantage can also use those same holds which in turn negates the "edge" holds may have given a character.
 

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
On that note, any "qualified guesses" for Marie's match-ups yet? I bet people has been hard at work with her lately.
 

Xernuht

Well-Known Member
6-4 Marie's favor.
:marierose:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think she's got a 5-5 with Momiji. Marie has OHs, advanced holds, stance evasion, Rondo parries, and a terrifying stun game if she gets any momentum. Momiji has real safety, better range, a greater ability to work the stage, and a faster stun-launch set-up.
 
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