DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
- Start date
Zeo
Well-Known Member
...Hm. I'll give you Eliot, probably Lisa too, people just need to get better at fighting her I think.
Tina and Brad though? In a bit more detail why do you think he is superior to those two. Tina has an i12 high crushing mid punch and one of the highest damage hi counter throws in the entire game. She's honestly really underrated and I don't understand why. Low tier even MAYBE, but bottom 3? Not buying it, not lower than Bass.
As for Brad, I believe he's low tier, but I never believed he was worse than Ein.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I don't think Tina is low tier. I think Lisa, Brad Wong and Eliot are the low tier characters of this game. I think Ein overall has better match-ups than these characters and has alot more solid traits going for him. Really Ein's flaws are lack of tracking, lack of an ability to open his opponent up and lack of good stun game initiators aside from 3P, 3K, and 6P. Everything else about him ranges from solid to exceptional such as his stun to launch game, his bounds, his spacing and his pokes. He arguably has the best counter pokes in the game in PKK and 3P. He is also the best whiff punisher in the game IMO because his whiff punishment allows him to reap the rewards of the environment without any extra guessing involved and he is more effective than most characters at it. This is a strong trait to have in DOA.
Ein also does not have the speed deficit that some characters suffer from because of his 2P. This forces 12i mid characters to respect him more than they have to respect other characters in Ein's speed tier.
Ein also does not have the speed deficit that some characters suffer from because of his 2P. This forces 12i mid characters to respect him more than they have to respect other characters in Ein's speed tier.
Because she has serious issues in neutral, has a pretty mediocre mix up, and relies on hold punishment to really tie her game together. (Or just random throw stuff, which can be done by anyone and almost as well) Most people come around to her approaching her with that mindset and leave her thinking that she's just not all that great. Mind you, I don't think she's worse than Ein (who, au contraire to Ten, I think is worse than every character he listed), but seems more fitting to be down there than Lisa (who *is* straight up underrated) or Brad (who, for all his faults, is still a very good character and better than everyone else mentioned)
She has legit string mix-ups that go between mids and +on NH lows. She has an i12 high-crushing mid (not to mention an i11 mid K when BT). She has OHs (including crouching) out the wa-zoo. She has "grappler-speed" throws. She has some nice safety when used properly. She has numerous string-delays. She has admirable crushes. She also doesn't get stuck in the "pure" neutral game all the time due to her oki pressure options.
Honestly, I'd kill for her neutral game.
Hayabusa is one of the silliest, lol
UpSideDownGRUNT
Well-Known Member
For a Super Ninja he's not expressing himself very well in 5U. when HAYATE is better than you, canonically the worst Ninja out of the group you know something's wrong lol.
The "worst canonical ninja" award is a toss-up between Hayate and Momiji, tbh
You two sleep with one eye open tonight k
Honestly, I find most of that stuff pretty telegraphed. Especially H3P, which is made problematic by the existence of both 33P and 3P. The OHs are fine, the throw punishment is good, the safety is alright. But she gets outpoked badly and rushed pretty hard for the most part, and her mix up... it's not bad per se, but lower half of the cast. I also don't see her crushing a ton of key reads that freak people out too badly aside from that nifty little 4K.
Well some people are still really telegraphed but also don't have any of that other stuff (
save throw speed). And if you do mess up she punishes you harder than average. I'm not saying she's a godly character or anything, but aside from the "telegraphed" issue (and she still not as telegraphed as others), she's not running into any obstacles that I feel warrant her being considered low tier.I dunno, I don't think of Busa as being that telegraphed. If we're talking characters who are telegraphed but who don't have any of that other stuff, I think of Leon. Who is, well, not as good as she is.Well some people are still really telegraphed but also don't have any of that other stuff (
Anything useful is. For example, 214P/WR4KP, 6KP, 1KchargeP, 2H+K/1PK, 3K2K, 33K, 4P+K, 66K, ongyoinPPP/BTP+KPP and his ongyoin teleport moves. Those are his only only options to beat a standing guard (ie: attain neutral or plus frames) aside from tick throws, and all of them are very slow and very telegraphed and don't have mix-ups to keep you guessing. Most can also be simply jab intercepted.
214P is really slow and can be jab intercepted, held or sidestepped on reaction. Furthermore, even landing it only gives him +2, meaning basically everyone can still jab after it and still beat his fastest mid. Coming out of WR4K it's even more telegraphed, and the only mix-up can be beaten in the same ways. You really only can trip someone up with the new hop cancel. But a smart player will know that neither the P or K follow-up is that scary if simply guarded, and a standing guard gives plenty of time to punish him for using the hop cancel.
6KP you should already be familiar with. It's silliness.
PP1KchargeP I've tried to integrate into my game a lot, and usually not with much success. People always poke out of it (or occasionally just hold it). It's obviously easily reactable. I have more success using it without the charge, which y'know, back to standing block. 1KchargeP can be used to circumvent hold timing on the mid P, but rarely ever does it land on gaurd, so you're kinda counting on the 1K to connect on CH.
3K2K technically has the 3KK mixup coming out of it, but the 3K2K variant is so slow that it can easily be reacted to. Sometimes you catch people with it simply because they're not used to seeing it, but if we're talking high-level play here, it's not taking him far.
33K is one of the dumbest moves in the whole game. I shouldn't have to describe how silly and telegraphed this is.
4P+K can be used every now and again as a surprise mix-up. He can be struck out of it fairly easily as it doesn't have the insane hitbox properties of, say, LF's 1P+K, but used sparingly it can get you some advantage.
66K is not super-telegraphed, but it is fairly slow and you do get hit out of it fairly regularly. Not to mention that the advantage it gives you on block is basically worthless considering the mandatory ongyoin transition and how limited your following options are.
2H+K/1PK is really your only one that can't be easily poked out of. But, 1PK is easily, easily reactable especially condescending it's lack of mix-ups. Hayate and Momiji, for example, have the 1PP follow-up for a mid that keeps you attentive. If Ryu moves at all after 1P, you know it's that kick that's coming.
ongyoin PPP/BTP+KPP better than most, but lack of mix-ups and frequent use make it easy to see coming.
The teleport moves are obviously telegraphed in that even if you can't react to the individual variants, all are beaten in the same manner so if you see him swirling his arms, you know you can beat whatever's coming with a free-step.
His not-super-telegraphed options are the stuff that's beaten with a standing guard. So you can try that stuff all day and not get anywhere. If you want to try to apply pressure, you must commit to something telegraphed and hope that your mind games are been sufficient in making the opponent intimidated and off-their game in terms of reaction times.
That or tick throws, which everyone has access to. Tina's tick throws are better than Ryu's, btw (actually all of her throw power is).
Last edited:
I really can't respond to this line to line. I agree regarding the teleport moves in general (you have to set those up to make them worth your while in a particular way), but I think that a lot of those moves are more potent in stun than anything Tina has; they free cancel well and have set ups that work into and unto themselves rather than being reliant on ending a string or adding specific stuns. Whereas Tina is often in a weird thing where she's either finishing a string or trying to grab you, and it's Door #1 or Door #2. I've never had that experience with even mediocre Hayabusa play, but you definitely see it in most Tina play.
And in neutral, there are enough "telegraphed" options like 66K to make none of them telegraphed enough to be that painful. Tina... it's often silly GBs that are rarely + frames or 6H+K, which is unsafe. Generally, I'm more afraid of what he's going to do to me than that.
I'm not referring to how they function in stun. Ryu has an amazing stun game once he gets it started, and quite honestly, there are very few characters I feel who can even hold a candle to his stun capacity. AFAIK he is the only character who can transition between 3 different lift stuns all on different hit levels.
What I'm referring to is the exact opposite: the neutral game. That's where Ryu has a lot of trouble. It's hard for him to initiate that stun game. That's why his neutral is far weaker, imo, than say Tina. Tina can open you up easier, and she's dishing out more damage when she does so (unless you have oddities like certain environmental set-ups and whatnot, but when you consider those, everyone has ridiculous stuff).
Could you re-phrase that by any chance. I'm sorta lost.
What exactly are you afraid of that Hayabusa can do to you in neutral (excluding HiC izuna holds)?
Yeah, that was kinda me covering all bases. Neutral, then.
Alone, a move like WRK4K, 66K, etc. would be telegraphed. But I feel he's got a *lot* of moves that are like that, enough that even when, say, Hayabusa is crouching at R1F, I'm not *exactly* sure what he's going to do. (With Tina, it's H3P or maybe throw at most). He doesn't have a ton of overwhelming tools, but in neutral he's got enough of them that are convincing that they're stronger than Tina. I haven't felt when I'm fighting Hayabusa that I'm fighting, so to speak, someone and their stupid, because he has enough tools that reasonable variation will get him a few decent methods of attack without going towards insanity. (Though he might have a legit issue with at whole 12 frame 2P issue?)
Up close, he and Tina are probably in similar positions, but I'm probably less afraid of him because he's scarier in stun than she is. He's missing that low crush, which is unique to her, but that's about it. From not immediate range, far more, because she doesn't have buttons that don't make her blatant for days where he's coming in at various ranges with a ton of different tools throughout every space up to me, to the point where his run up and grab is far more potent than most character's on reactability.