DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[Brute]

Yeah, that was kinda me covering all bases. Neutral, then.

Alone, a move like WRK4K, 66K, etc. would be telegraphed. But I feel he's got a *lot* of moves that are like that, enough that even when, say, Hayabusa is crouching at R1F, I'm not *exactly* sure what he's going to do. (With Tina, it's H3P or maybe throw at most).

1) I do feel like WR4K is a distinct-enough move that when you see it, who know exactly what move it is and what options he can come out of it with. It's not like Kokoro or Rig where a bunch of their moves look similar. The handstand is a handstand. Pretty distinct among Hayabusa's animations. Coming out of it, he has only slow, reactable options.

2) Crouching before match start isn't too useful here. WR4K is a WR move, not a hold3 move. You can do it near instantly (enter crouch only briefly, faster than anyone could react to, right before the match starts). If he's ducking before the match begins, he's just doing it to mess around and psych you out in hopes that you don't know how meaningless that crouch is. He's more unpredictable and has all the same options, plus more, if you see him remain standing.

3) It doesn't matter if you you are "exactly" sure or not because you can beat them all the same way. The stuff that can't be beaten the same way is the stuff you can patiently wait for and react to (save tick throws). If he's crouching, he might do 1P, 2P, WR4K, WRH+K (lol) or maybe get up and 6P. If you standing guard, his first hit will not be threatening in any of these scenarios. His second will either be non-threatening or very risky/telegraphed. You might say "tick throws" but again, everyone has access to that. But wait, there's more! A 13 frame mid (which all characters save Bass and Lisa have) will directly beat all of those (save the 6P thing which you'll either beat or tie with depending on your character).

He doesn't have a ton of overwhelming tools, but in neutral he's got enough of them that are convincing that they're stronger than Tina. I haven't felt when I'm fighting Hayabusa that I'm fighting, so to speak, someone and their stupid, because he has enough tools that reasonable variation will get him a few decent methods of attack without going towards insanity.

I disagree. What are these few "overwhelming tools" he's got from neutral?

Up close, he and Tina are probably in similar positions, but I'm probably less afraid of him because he's scarier in stun than she is. He's missing that low crush, which is unique to her, but that's about it. From not immediate range, far more, because she doesn't have buttons that don't make her blatant for days where he's coming in at various ranges with a ton of different tools throughout every space up to me,

At range he has better options, but honestly, his range options aren't as godly as people make them out to be. They are easily blanketed and unless you're being reckless with stance whoring or intentional range whiffing (which he is great at punishing), his options to close in are very risky. Tina simply doesn't do better which is why range goes to Ryu, no question. But compared to say Hayate, Ryu's range options are actually fairly limited. Even when successful they rarely open the stun game (his super-scary spot). Though a few do, yes.
Still, that's not giving him some great advantage that compensates for his CQ shortcomings.

to the point where his run up and grab is far more potent than most character's on reactability

I know what you're trying to say and it is a valid point in certain regards. And to that extent, I agree with you. But even so, the idea of "You have tick throws in neutral" is just not a very compelling argument to me. The exception would maybe for characters who have a Hitomi/Mila style 6T.

 

[VirtuaKazama]

Does Ayane have any bad matchups at all?

 

[Matt Ponton]

so far, Gen Fu.

 

[SilverForte]

Who's the best character to fight against Gen Fu? Besides himself of course.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Probably Leifang. Mid parry and punch parry plus a lot of mid crushes. 1P+K actually avoids some of his string mixups too.

 

[Heikou]

v. Jacky 4-6
v. Leon 4-6
v. Lisa 4-6

Would you mind explaining these three matchups?

 

[Bushido]

Would you mind explaining these three matchups?

Here's the gist of the three, but a quick rundown of Kokoro's kit:

Kokoro: 10/12/13
- Little defense, a high sabaki that can be difficult to land and a slow mid sabaki
- Strong CQC, generally safe
- Heichu stance/throw
- Decent throw damage
- Strong stun game
- Lightweight
- Great mid range

Jacky vs Kokoro: 6-4 Jacky
Jacky: 10/12/12
- Has a sabaki for highs in Neutral, which resets them back to neutral.
- Generally more mixups than Kokoro, especially low mix-ups
- Quite safe
- The stance is a sabaki for mids, which sucks for Kokoro
- Great stun game
- Midweight
Basically, Jacky's mix-up is stronger than Kokoro's CQC with his lows and all. It's like Sarah, with more lows...and stuns (as said by Huntress). Kokoro should have the advantage mid range though.

Leon vs Kokoro: 4-6 Kokoro
Leon: 11/14/16
- Little defense
- Decent CQC
- OHs
- Good stuns
- Pretty unsafe
- Weak mid range
- Not a lot of tracking
- Super Heavyweight
So, Kokoro is safer close range, is faster, and can beat him out midrange. She has to work for combos because of the weight, but it's still in favor of Kokoro.

Lisa vs Kokoro: 6-4 Lisa
Lisa: 11/14/16 (wow...)
- Little defense
- Superb mid range
- OH mid range
- Pokes are quite safe
- Tracks a bit
- Midweight
Kokoro can get spaced out forever against Lisa. It's very obvious when you face a good Lisa why this is a bad matchup.

If anybody would like to add, please do. I have quite a limited knowledge of these characters.

 

[Heikou]

I feel like she should be 5 - 5 against Jacky because she's able to outspace him fairly easily, but I don't have much experience with this matchup, so if you say it's 4 - 6 in Jacky's favor, that's probably closer to the mark.

As for Leon's matchup, I was confused because the numbers are backwards and it led me to believe that you meant it was in Leon's favor.

I agree with Lisa's matchup, though, was just curious what made it go in her favor.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Leon: 11/14/16

Leon has two i13 mids. 3P and 6K.

 

[Brute]

Leon has two i13 mids. 3P and 6K.

This. Honestly, I don't feel like this match-up is that bad for Leon. Compared to what you guys are typically considering 6-4, Kokoro v Leon does not feel like that. If the match-up is in Kokoro's favor, I don't feel it's by much. Maybe 5.5-4.5.

But if we're going by the idea that Kokoro v Ryu is 6-4, there's no way Kokoro v Leon is also 6-4, as the latter is not close to being as lopsided as the former.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

kokoro does not have the advantage over leon at all and if anything i'd put it in Leons favor . The only thing Leon really has to fear from her is her stun mixups which is where a majority of her damage comes from while Leon can bypass the stun game altogether and still output higher damage than her, her throws aren't anything special, her juggle damage is a non-factor since she doesn't get much off of super heavies where as Leon can wreck her after any launch since he gives no fucks about weight class since all his launchers give him air throws on every weight class.

even though shes faster she still lacks i9's/i11's, good lows, zoning ,parries, and evasiveness to overwhelm him like the likes of genfu,alpha, ayane, leifang,,kasumi,christie vf cast etc(who are all true 4-6 matchups for him) so he can easily manage against her and even put pressure on her himself a variety of ways. his crushes like 33p which gives him guaranteed unstaggerable stun setups and his 2p which gives him +1 on hit ultimately giving him i10 jab and i12mids equal to hers. He can also utilize his large array of guardbreaks to keep pressure on her, his chargeable strings that keeps opponents guessing whether he'll do a charge or non charge follow ups to his mix ups. his variety of 2in1's which all have to abilty to launch, and 2 hit cb setups off any stuns without relying on risky telegraphed sabaki setups like her and eliot have to. Unless im missing something she has nothing on him to make the matchup 6-4 in her favor

 

[Requiem]

Probably Leifang. Mid parry and punch parry plus a lot of mid crushes. 1P+K actually avoids some of his string mixups too.

Even this, he wins. She avoids more things and gets around him in neutral, but he's disproportionately rewarded for the reads he gets right. At best, it's even. At worse, he's still rolling her like everyone else.

That said, I want to say that EH feature is actually pretty neat, all in all. I mean, I don't actually agree with the rankings and I don't think most tourney players will, but it's an interesting community barometer. (For example, a lot of the tournament set don't think that highly of Sarah, yet on FSD I see more hate for her than Gen Fu, who is significantly underrated even at #5) Good stuff!

 

[StrikerSashi]

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying Leifang's a counter pick or something. I just think she's his worst matchup. It just happens that his worst matchup is still in his favor.

 

[Requiem]

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying Leifang's a counter pick or something. I just think she's his worst matchup. It just happens that his worst matchup is still in his favor.

That's fair. She's got some unique tools around him, I think Christie does too, and you can say that certain ranged-emphasized characters can do a range of things he doesn't. I've heard of some other interesting counterpicks, too. In the end, though, it doesn't take much to get tossed into the vortex that favors him so much on reward, so he's still got advantage on all of them. Even then, you can definitely fight it.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Even this, he wins. She avoids more things and gets around him in neutral, but he's disproportionately rewarded for the reads he gets right. At best, it's even. At worse, he's still rolling her like everyone else.

That said, I want to say that EH feature is actually pretty neat, all in all. I mean, I don't actually agree with the rankings and I don't think most tourney players will, but it's an interesting community barometer. (For example, a lot of the tournament set don't think that highly of Sarah, yet on FSD I see more hate for her than Gen Fu, who is significantly underrated even at #5) Good stuff!

I think that pretty much sums up my beef with GenFu. And 3P, fuck 3P.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I'd be okay with Gen Fu as a character if he wasn't so well rounded. Remove his 214P entirely and reduce the range of all his attacks so that they need him point blank to hit. Make him have to work to start his ridiculous offense.

The joke is that he'd still be good if this happened. That's how I gauge whether a character is too strong. "How ridiculous do the nerfs have to be to make this character bad?" Frankly, I think you can remove his parries and his launch throw and he'd still be decent.

 

[Requiem]

I think that pretty much sums up my beef with GenFu. And 3P, fuck 3P.

Yeah, 3PP is an insanely good reward for the amount of guessing it requires, and worse because getting someone on the opposite read is probably even worse. Fun stuff. He's not broken per se, but ridiculously strong.

 

[Bushido]

This. Honestly, I don't feel like this match-up is that bad for Leon. Compared to what you guys are typically considering 6-4, Kokoro v Leon does not feel like that. If the match-up is in Kokoro's favor, I don't feel it's by much. Maybe 5.5-4.5.

But if we're going by the idea that Kokoro v Ryu is 6-4, there's no way Kokoro v Leon is also 6-4, as the latter is not close to being as lopsided as the former.

It's the same way with Bayman being by decimals, but decimals are invalid...

Leon has two i13 mids. 3P and 6K.

Thanks, I was just going by 6P. I

 

[Brute]

That said, I want to say that EH feature is actually pretty neat, all in all. I mean, I don't actually agree with the rankings and I don't think most tourney players will, but it's an interesting community barometer. (For example, a lot of the tournament set don't think that highly of Sarah, yet on FSD I see more hate for her than Gen Fu, who is significantly underrated even at #5) Good stuff!

Well a lot of my frustrations come from the perspective of the MUs that I personally get to deal with (Ryu v Sarah & Ryu v Gen Fu).
I can see the objection creeping up on the horizon: "Brute," it tells me. "Gen Fu is still a worse match-up for Ryu than Sarah is." I tell the counter-point no, that he is wrong, and that he probably hasn't played the match-ups in question hundreds and hundreds of times.
So I can't say for Sarah v Gen Fu at large who the stronger character is when pitted up against the full roster at large (I actually am inclined to think it's Gen Fu), but for Hayabusa, it's Sarah.

Also, God whispers to me in my sleep, and He informed me that Sarah was the Antichrist. I'm just trying to do my best to spread the gospel and save as many souls as I can before she initiates the apocalypse.

 

[Requiem]

Well a lot of my frustrations come from the perspective of the MUs that I personally get to deal with (Ryu v Sarah & Ryu v Gen Fu).
I can see the objection creeping up on the horizon: "Brute," it tells me. "Gen Fu is still a worse match-up for Ryu than Sarah is." I tell the counter-point no, that he is wrong, and that he probably hasn't played the match-ups in question hundreds and hundreds of times.
So I can't say for Sarah v Gen Fu at large who the stronger character is when pitted up against the full roster at large (I actually am inclined to think it's Gen Fu), but for Hayabusa, it's Sarah.

Also, God whispers to me in my sleep, and He informed me that Sarah was the Antichrist. I'm just trying to do my best to spread the gospel and save as many souls as I can before she initiates the apocalypse.

Man, the Sarah hate is so real! Seriously, I'm going to sit down with Hayabusa sometime and just work out his anti-Sarah tech. I swear it must exist. It's true that he doesn't have one of those obvious tools against her that makes the reads pretty easy, even though he can Izuna drop her out of her high punches, I think? (Never underestimate that)