DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

Awesmic

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Because it can be hard to interrogate those ideas when you can't even directly address the source. Furthermore, it provides more incentive for people to make claims without fearing backlash, so people become more reckless. Essentially, it creates something close to what we see with the EH Tier List. People just spout their personal opinions without trying to back them up, and that latter part is very, very important.
I'm more concerned about those who take the backlash too far when the presenter does try to back up their points.

Silliest list I've seen yet. I could pick apart everything wrong with it, but I'm pretty sure everyone else already knows.
Speaking for myself, I don't know what's wrong with it. The top tiers seem common enough.

Beyond that, all I see are people going at each other's throats and belittling each other to prove their points on why someone's good or bad. It's no surprise that it's been quiet for a while.
 

StrikerSashi

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Honestly, I think Ayane's the only bad matchup for Leifang. I don't even mind the Gen Fu matchup, 'cause she got tools to make him play honest. Sarah is pretty free and if anything, it's in Leifang's favor. Christie's one of the problematic ones for me, but it's not even a problem of tools. I just can't focus for long enough to react fast enough to beat her bullshit.
 

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
He's got the Raijin which is pretty similar. But yeah, Hayabusa being the lowest tiered ninja is pretty laughable. He should be up there with Ayane >:D.
Hayate doesn't even need Rajin lol. He has Narikryu. Even then, he gets a lot of damage by just juggling.
 

Requiem

Active Member
Honestly, I think Ayane's the only bad matchup for Leifang. I don't even mind the Gen Fu matchup, 'cause she got tools to make him play honest. Sarah is pretty free and if anything, it's in Leifang's favor. Christie's one of the problematic ones for me, but it's not even a problem of tools. I just can't focus for long enough to react fast enough to beat her bullshit.
Ayane's not a bad match up against Lei. Most people just don't know how to fight Ayane, but Lei has so many strong options to bait her at range and then so many good ways to bulldog her up close that this is a dead even match up. I can talk about how to fight Ayane at length if desired? What do you imagine makes it bad?

Christie... yeah, that's just a thing where you have to have energy to approach it, and where a bad connection makes that one much harder. But it's very possible to fight that with Lei. She's actually a great Christie counterpick.
 

Yurlungur

Well-Known Member
Ayane's not a bad match up against Lei. Most people just don't know how to fight Ayane, but Lei has so many strong options to bait her at range and then so many good ways to bulldog her up close that this is a dead even match up. I can talk about how to fight Ayane at length if desired? What do you imagine makes it bad?

Christie... yeah, that's just a thing where you have to have energy to approach it, and where a bad connection makes that one much harder. But it's very possible to fight that with Lei. She's actually a great Christie counterpick.

Oh i know, and lei fang can also piss off any helena player
I honestly feel like my best match up of the rachel for that situation
 

Requiem

Active Member
Oh i know, and lei fang can also piss off any helena player
I honestly feel like my best match up of the rachel for that situation
Rachel at least has powerful grabs if Lei puts something out there. Still, Lei has more tools than most characters to shut down Rachel, and she can stop Rachel from hitting buttons almost as much as Rachel can stop her from hitting buttons. And Lei has a greater degree in doing that than Rachel does, so I don't consider Rachel a counterpick.

(That said, if the way you play Rachel stomps on Lei players you know, absolutely use her for that purpose)
 

Yurlungur

Well-Known Member
Rachel at least has powerful grabs if Lei puts something out there. Still, Lei has more tools than most characters to shut down Rachel, and she can stop Rachel from hitting buttons almost as much as Rachel can stop her from hitting buttons. And Lei has a greater degree in doing that than Rachel does, so I don't consider Rachel a counterpick.

(That said, if the way you play Rachel stomps on Lei players you know, absolutely use her for that purpose)

I usually don't have many problem with lei fang against my rachel tbh,
well, when i do play as rachel i usually have an "ayane" spacing game and just wait for a whiff
 

Requiem

Active Member
I usually don't have many problem with lei fang against my rachel tbh,
well, when i do play as rachel i usually have an "ayane" spacing game and just wait for a whiff
Ah, this is true! Rachel has a more intuitive spacing game. But Lei can handle it; you have to kinda space with Lei in reverse and it's a bit of an art, but she can bait Rachel's buttons in strong ways.
 

Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
"Hitomi's neutral is bad"

Well, might be a little out of context, but I kinda agree with you on the part of Hitomi's neutral (up close game) is among the worst (depending heavily on who you face I must add). Also she is greatly dependent on lagg and reaction time. Because of this I've (since the nerf to the 236ks) started using her more later into tournaments, or against people who I for different reasons know have been at it for a while. People with much lagg or excellent reaction time (/ fresh and focused mind not drained of endurance from playing long,) they will have an easier time reacting to some of Hitomi's moves.

When this is said Hitomi shines more than anyone once she gets on frame advantage. Sure getting into that frame advantage can be difficult and you can only fool them with 8pp2k => 7pp so many times before they know it is a low with +12 on hit into deep stun. However I'd still argue that you can, if playing it right, keep the frame advantage through the game, never allowing a reset and always having the odds in your favor.

It is kinda ironic, but Hitomi is easy to begin with and presented as such, but becomes very difficult to use at higher levels. Not in executing, but more in the mind games. You need to know not only the frames of yourself, but also your opponent. What works against Hayate, doesn't work against Christie, the fine line of 1 frame will very often determine if you get the hit or get hit (or forced back into neutral). 6T and 9H are very deadly tools that put Hitomi on frame advantage, and even if they do not do much damage on their own they force a continued barrage of never ending hits putting the opponent on their heels. From experience (and math) every resetpoint and none guarantee will have 66% chance of you coming out on top or more, and if they guess wrong the damage of that string will turn into a counter hit or high-counter throw.

But enough of that, I don't want to give a massive text of death here, but in general I agree that her neutral game is bad and you can't play it as most other characters.

Quick pointers.
- Hitomi is good all around, so you can use spacing against CQC opponents and CQC against spacing opponents.
- Overall Hitomi's best approach would be to use (mid) range to get frame advantage / deep stun, and then continue in CQC.
- Most close range characters use p and mid p a lot and can force CQC (Christie, Kasumi, Pai, Kokoro, etc). This is when punch parry becomes important. This is because if they use anything else your own p and mids will beat them out in speed (or damage at equal frames). The nature of the setup just makes it so. If you get frame advantage you are better in CQC than any other character on the board.
-You must be able to time delay and back to block timers. This way your free cancels into 6T will catch both a fall back to block and a hold, at the same time not denying yourself the possibility to continue p or ks. If you throw too early you'll miss the throw all together. If you don't do it on the right moves/scenarios then the opponent will know the odds are in his/hers favor when counter attacking.
-There is a lot of mind games with this character. If you are smart you'd win a lot just on rock paper scissors lizard spock.
 

StrikerSashi

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
It's just really hard to get in against her. Once she has a life lead, she can just play keep away and she has the tools to do so really well. My usual anti-spacing strategy with Leifang is reactive whiff punishing. I can't do it well against Ayane, though, 'cause her legs are hella long and I can't reach her if I'm out of her range. I end up having to do proactive whiff punishment like how Dudley would in 3S, where I have to predict what they do and then throw something out to match the timing and catch it right after their active frames before their limbs go back during recovery. That's hella risky, so I end up doing dash up and block most of the time, which is hella annoying and even when I block something, I'm not really in any position to catch up 'cause she just rolls away.

EDIT: THAT'S NOT WHAT NEUTRAL MEANS.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I'm more concerned about those who take the backlash too far when the presenter does try to back up their points.
I'm more concerned with inaccurate information being passed around uncontested and accepted as fact.

It is kinda ironic, but Hitomi is easy to begin with and presented as such, but becomes very difficult to use at higher levels.
I hear this said about every single character by those who main them.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
Well, might be a little out of context, but I kinda agree with you on the part of Hitomi's neutral (up close game) is among the worst (depending heavily on who you face I must add).

Hitomi's CQC

-10 frame jab that is neutral on NH, +3 on CH and has a Natural Combo in PK.
-13 frame mid that is +20 on Fastest SE. Better stun than the average striker 6P.
-14 frame low that is +1 on NH. Turns her 6K into a mid that will beat other 12 frame mids.
-11 frame high that leads to Natural Combos on 2 hit levels on CH.
-Safe 15 frame tech crouching tracking 1P.
-Strings that essentially negate SS with decent delays on all hit levels.
-6T. Mixups. 50/50s for days.
-33T which gets additional damage from walls AND triggers dangerzones!
-Punch Parry
-Damaging Advanced Mid Punch Hold
-Damaging Advanced Mid Kick Hold for players that are trying too hard to get around parry with mid kick.

Don't even get me started on her stun game. You guys all talk about her lacking guaranteed damage and what not when she doesn't even need it. Your character has strings and mix-ups to blitz through the stun game on ALL HIT LEVELS and get massive damage. You want to talk about guaranteed damage use the universal source of guaranteed damage: the walls and dangerzones, which is what she is built to do. Stun somebody once and do ANY wall splat they are losing 100+ life.

I'm sorry but in what way does this translate into a terrible CQC no matter who she is facing?
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
-6T. Mixups. 50/50s for days.
And "50/50" is really being generous, considering she has a lot more than two options coming out of that and you cannot cover all of them with only two responses.

-33T which gets additional damage from walls AND triggers dangerzones!
This crap on HiC with explosive dangerzones makes Ryu/Leon's best throws look like child's play. Hitomi's wall game is great for a variety of reasons, but fear of this bastard puts it into overdrive.

I think there's another character like that, hmm... oh yeah Ein ;).
According to the people who main them, every character is "like that."
 

iHajinShinobi

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Ayane's not a bad match up against Lei. Most people just don't know how to fight Ayane, but Lei has so many strong options to bait her at range and then so many good ways to bulldog her up close that this is a dead even match up. I can talk about how to fight Ayane at length if desired? What do you imagine makes it bad?

Christie... yeah, that's just a thing where you have to have energy to approach it, and where a bad connection makes that one much harder. But it's very possible to fight that with Lei. She's actually a great Christie counterpick.

What he means is that Leifang can fight Ayane just fine, in CQC and at various ranges. She can keep Ayane honest, and Ayane can keep her honest. It's a match up that's pretty even all around since both have the tools needed to fight the other well. If Ayane is slipping up, Leifang will thrash her and pretty hard. And vice versa.
 

Requiem

Active Member
It's just really hard to get in against her. Once she has a life lead, she can just play keep away and she has the tools to do so really well. My usual anti-spacing strategy with Leifang is reactive whiff punishing. I can't do it well against Ayane, though, 'cause her legs are hella long and I can't reach her if I'm out of her range. I end up having to do proactive whiff punishment like how Dudley would in 3S, where I have to predict what they do and then throw something out to match the timing and catch it right after their active frames before their limbs go back during recovery. That's hella risky, so I end up doing dash up and block most of the time, which is hella annoying and even when I block something, I'm not really in any position to catch up 'cause she just rolls away.

EDIT: THAT'S NOT WHAT NEUTRAL MEANS.
You have the right idea with the holds, though it is not as risky as it could be. That said, you also have 9P, which is both 9P4 and 9PP and then again 9P alone. 4KK is amazing keep out itself, so you can play the same game back and her strings can travel very well with PPKK and variants. If you block something, you have a lot of tools to move in because you absolutely can strike her before she gets away unless it's something very particular. In general, run up and block can put you in a very good position, you just have to know when you've put yourself in an advantageous position and can turn up the pressure.

It's not braindead when you get in, at all. But it is not impossible to get in, and not nearly difficult enough to lopside the match up.
 
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