Who else would be in Eliot Tier if not Eliot?
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
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What do you guys think ofv
6-4 to Kasumi due to speed difference and her ability to outpoke. Generally, this matchup revolves around Kasumi trying to force Bass to hold so she can launch him with her launching throws to get any noticeable damage since he's heavy. Or she'll end up plinking at him till he's dead. Her default form of harassment is enough to keep him at bay till he gets a good read or you make a mistake. You'll find yourself more often getting your FTs in juggles and sacrifice damage to keep him in check than trying to get damage unless you're so confident you're going to kill him that you go for that 90-110 dmg combo from the launching throw.
Bass will spend time in this MU throw punishing to gain momentum since that's what he's good at and keep punishing for it until she's dead or get a lucky hit and force her into his blender which he can get good frame advantage from thanks to her weight. You need to respect that even if you try to 7P away from him. He can also get good results from his frame traps and BT mix-ups since unlike Ayane, Christie, Brad or Lisa, Kasumi has a harder time trying to actually escape that particular mix-up, so guess accordingly.
Either way, both character will be in each others faces 80-90% of the match.
I'm sure @Mr. Wah has more experience in this MU so he can give a better explanation of this than I can. But generally, I don't think Kasumi players need to know too much about this MU to maintain their push. Leave the whole research and scholarship thing to Bass players.
Zeo
Well-Known Member
Actually... Sarah is taking Akira's spot more than anyone. Pai should just be lower lol.
I actually feel like a lot of people are sleeping on Pai. One of the most underrated characters in the game right now imo due to the over selling of characters such as Sarah. She may not do much damage in comparison of the cast but she's very solid. Other than her spacing, I hear ppl often mention that she doesn't have a lot of tracking moves to actually do her justice. However. I have limited knowledge of the character in terms of tracking & oki variety but seen quite a few use some hard knockdowns from her setups.
Ah! Yeah, I didn't know if it was only a few people who felt this way. In particular with the superheavys, I'm not sure how much emphasis is put on damage & what adjustments are made in order to juggle them (decreased damage with health bar increased), but she does have new universal juggles from 236T, 1H, & 1T: PKK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK is 82 CH with 236T, 74 with 1T, not even sure if that's the right number on CH, may be 72 instead. 1H she has KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK which is around the same numbers as 1T's. 1T's may do more. From her advanced hold, she has 236P PKK7K 6P+K KK with some more juggling options but it ranges from like 75 to 80.
It's not "bad" numbers by any means, the point is that you would often get a less-damaging juggle with this weight class which you still do since that you have be aware of your surroundings & 9PK wall slams the moment you're within the distance of a wall, so you still may have to readjust with something like 6K KK7K 6P+K KK which is like 77 or 78 but 92 when slamming against the wall or 6K PPKK. The others I won't mention since that you have to be angled off a certain way. I just put this here for edited info to the match (es) to which superheavys apply to.
Ah! Yeah, I didn't know if it was only a few people who felt this way. In particular with the superheavys, I'm not sure how much emphasis is put on damage & what adjustments are made in order to juggle them (decreased damage with health bar increased), but she does have new universal juggles from 236T, 1H, & 1T: PKK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK is 82 CH with 236T, 74 with 1T, not even sure if that's the right number on CH, may be 72 instead. 1H she has KK7K 6P+K 9PK 6P+K KK which is around the same numbers as 1T's. 1T's may do more. From her advanced hold, she has 236P PKK7K 6P+K KK with some more juggling options but it ranges from like 75 to 80.
It's not "bad" numbers by any means, the point is that you would often get a less-damaging juggle with this weight class which you still do since that you have be aware of your surroundings & 9PK wall slams the moment you're within the distance of a wall, so you still may have to readjust with something like 6K KK7K 6P+K KK which is like 77 or 78 but 92 when slamming against the wall or 6K PPKK. The others I won't mention since that you have to be angled off a certain way. I just put this here for edited info to the match (es) to which superheavys apply to.
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Something-Unique
Active Member
Out of all the VF characters Akira and Pai are the best imo. Jacky was Sarah or a slight bit better until they gave his frames the nerf bat. Still he hits much harder than she does post threshold I from like all situations and his PB damage is retarded. I think u could still argue a case between who's better between the two even now.
But Akira and Pai are both better than Jacky and Sarah imo.
But Akira and Pai are both better than Jacky and Sarah imo.
To this day, every since that Marie Rose was released, I've been seeing & hearing mixed reactions about her. Some people say she is very abusive in terms of sidestepping command, good OHS, her rolling towards you & damage. However, I haven't had much exp against to really gauge. But I don't understand why folks want her guaranteed damage nerfed from the parries when she's doing the same amount of damage as other characters respectively with 85+. I've seen folks complain about it but it could be that they're not used to her. She looks really solid based on what I've seen in tournaments & against some that I've played though.
Going back to Akira, other than having a rough time space, he's definitely solid. Imo, he's the best VF character in the game. Arguably a top 10 candidate in the game. He has a lot of what you would want in a character. Maybe the others as well.
Going back to Akira, other than having a rough time space, he's definitely solid. Imo, he's the best VF character in the game. Arguably a top 10 candidate in the game. He has a lot of what you would want in a character. Maybe the others as well.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
What makes you say Pai is better than Jacky @Something-Unique? I don't buy her being better than any of the other 3 atm.
Xernuht
Well-Known Member
Offensively, she's decently fast and has lots of high/mid-low mixup and oki potential, but she has difficulties opening up the opponent and she has zero range. Defensively, she has her advanced holds for all strike types, her Rondo parry, and her OHs, but still lacks good ranged options.
From my own experience using her (poorly), she's a 5-5 for Leifang (similar tools, but each dominates a different range) and a 4-6 for Ayane (spinning and ranged pokes keep MR out of decent punishing range).
Xernuht
Well-Known Member
Near as I can tell, she's a linear delay machine. She's got good range, has access to all hit levels from most of her strings, has Heichu for added mix-up, and solid strike damage. That said, she's not too safe, her throw damage is abysmal (3-stage, 12-frame, non-OH= 62 damage), most of her offense is mid-based, and she has very few tracking moves.
Extremely short stuns on mids and hella slow non-threshold launchers. You end up playing as a shitty grappler.
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Basically her only tool to open the opponent up is her heichu throw, which is fairly risky even when used mid string. If the opponent sees it coming and crushes, you're hit for HiC. She's not particularly fast, either, and her defensive options are terrible.
This is an interesting overview and appreciate you going into detail. I actually agree with you that Ayane (and Sarah) get a bit overrated at times, however, Ayane's 2P is legitimately freaking amazing. The one aspect about it compared to other i12 2P's that gets a bit overlooked is how much range it can control. The move is practically a close-range keepout tool when being hit around its tip range (and is obviously better when it connects on CH). The VF's i12 2P's have shit range in comparison and 3 of them are just 0 on hit. Only Akira's is +1 if I'm not mistaken. Only the female ninjas have i12 2P's and they usually require you to be fairly close for them to be useful. Ayane can try to work that tip-range hit much better making her 2P an extremely abusable tool.
However, I do admit that characters with i12 & i11 mids (especially if they have i12 lows on top too like the VF's, Kasumi, Momiji and now Phase-4 for example) don't have to respect Ayane's 2P in point-blank range that much compared to someone with a i13 or worse mid like Ein or a Super Heavy. Good point also on Ayane's 6P getting nerfed to 18 damage, though she still has her i13 mid K (or could just do another i12 2P).
I know that it's still too early to really tell, but I want to post about Phase 4 to shed some light on her. I'm not going to defend her nor downplay her. Some are sold on her, some are sketchy on her, & some already have her labeled as trash. I feel like this is required for discussion since we are discussing characters.
Now, 1st of all, I am NOT neglecting how her neutral game is, but at the same time, I feel that a lot of people are neglecting what type of tools that she has DUE to the neutral game & how unsafe she is & constantly comparing her to Kasumi. It's no secret that she is an extremely high risk/reward character, but despite that, when I look at some of the rest of the cast, she actually has things that players wish their characters had.
Guaranteed launchers from 4P limbo stun, although it's very unsafe on block, guaranteed damage from 66T, 67H (high hold), 1H (low hold for juggle) & 46H (mid kick hold for juggle). She also has 236T & 1T launchers. She has a safe gap closer in 3P+KP -4 on block to go with Chifu getting in closer. SSP & it's options, though it is pretty slow at 35i. Lol her fucking crush, 33P even leads to a throw juggle like most of her juggles do (33P 2P 6PKT).
However, the character does require a lot of match up knowledge as she is unsafe & has to 2P, 8P, 6P, 2K, PP, 3K, 33K, H+K & tick throwing to rely on since that she has to commit to unsafe strings like her 2in1 (3P) on block which is -8 & PKKK etc also committing to teleports for big damage. Another possible area of concern is her oki, however she's still being fleshed out.
Still, with all things considered, the 3P & P+K both STILL play a decent role with her game since that it can break up some of the other character's things like Brad Wong's laydown mid kicks. P+K & 7K can hit after the 2nd kick. Or Bayman's tank roll which you have H+K & P+K for that. So although the safety issues are bad on paper, some of the unsafest tools still could play a key factor.
Now, 1st of all, I am NOT neglecting how her neutral game is, but at the same time, I feel that a lot of people are neglecting what type of tools that she has DUE to the neutral game & how unsafe she is & constantly comparing her to Kasumi. It's no secret that she is an extremely high risk/reward character, but despite that, when I look at some of the rest of the cast, she actually has things that players wish their characters had.
Guaranteed launchers from 4P limbo stun, although it's very unsafe on block, guaranteed damage from 66T, 67H (high hold), 1H (low hold for juggle) & 46H (mid kick hold for juggle). She also has 236T & 1T launchers. She has a safe gap closer in 3P+KP -4 on block to go with Chifu getting in closer. SSP & it's options, though it is pretty slow at 35i. Lol her fucking crush, 33P even leads to a throw juggle like most of her juggles do (33P 2P 6PKT).
However, the character does require a lot of match up knowledge as she is unsafe & has to 2P, 8P, 6P, 2K, PP, 3K, 33K, H+K & tick throwing to rely on since that she has to commit to unsafe strings like her 2in1 (3P) on block which is -8 & PKKK etc also committing to teleports for big damage. Another possible area of concern is her oki, however she's still being fleshed out.
Still, with all things considered, the 3P & P+K both STILL play a decent role with her game since that it can break up some of the other character's things like Brad Wong's laydown mid kicks. P+K & 7K can hit after the 2nd kick. Or Bayman's tank roll which you have H+K & P+K for that. So although the safety issues are bad on paper, some of the unsafest tools still could play a key factor.
