DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[J.D.E.]

Kasumi

vs Akira 5-5
vs Alpha 6-4
vs Ayane 5-5
vs Bass 6-4
vs Bayman ???
vs Christie 5-5
vs Ein 6-4
vs Eliot 6-4
vs Gen Fu 5-5
vs Hayate 5-5
vs Hayabusa 5-5
vs Helena 5-5
vs Hitomi 6-4
vs Honoka ???
vs Lei Fang 5-5
vs Leon 6-4
vs Jacky 5-5
vs Jann Lee 6-4
vs Kokoro 6-4
vs Lisa ???
vs Marie Rose 5-5
vs Mila 5-5
vs Pai 5-5
vs Phase 4 6-4
vs Rachel 6-4
vs Raidou ???
vs Sarah 5-5
vs Tina 6-4
vs Zack 6-4


That's pretty much what I had before

 

[Heikou]

Would you mind giving an explanation on 6-4 Kasumi vs Kokoro?

I just like hearing other people's opinions on her MUs

 

[Tempest]

I disagree with the following Phase matchups

vs Alpha, should be 5-5. Alpha does have a better neutral game, but Phase can some truly ridiculous damage without even going deep into stun off of her launchers.

vs Bass, should be 5-5, Bass can punish Phase's general unsafety very hard with his fast, powerful throws, and the fact that he's super heavyweight means that her offense is greatly diminished, and some combos require extra precision. Plus I would argue that bass has better mid and long range tools.

vs Genfu, should be 4-6 in his favor. I have no idea why this is listed as 6-4 for phase, Genfu is a close range monster and Phase has very few tools to fight well at a mid range. Plus his weight will lower the damage you can get off of juggles.

vs Jann Lee, should be 5-5, Jann may be unsafe, but he matches Phase in mid strike speed, and his damage is quite high. His neutral game and zoning potential also outclass Phase's tools in the same areas.

vs Kokoro, should be 5-5, once again Phase does not really have the neutral game to compete with Kokoro and will be forced on the defensive even more than usual. She has to get in and even when she gets there Kokoro is only slightly slower and is much more safe.

 

[UncleKitchener]

Uh, no.

Are you implying that he's decent or that people don't care even if he's average?

vs Bass, should be 5-5, Bass can punish Phase's general unsafety very hard with his fast, powerful throws, and the fact that he's super heavyweight means that her offense is greatly diminished, and some combos require extra precision. Plus I would argue that bass has better mid and long range tools.

I played matches against Phase 4s, including Emperor cows and she actually can't get in very reliably, leading to her playing range games with Bass since he can do better poking from mid long range. is a good spacing tool for her, but can end up being a huge liability.

 

[J.D.E.]

Would you mind giving an explanation on 6-4 Kasumi vs Kokoro?

I just like hearing other people's opinions on her MUs

This will be quick since I'm watching Sailor Moon & then some lab (MKX) lol.

Kasumi vs Kokoro

For what type of character that they are, it's the fact that Kasumi beats her at what Kokoro really wants to do. Their gameplan. She controls the neutral game better in the match. They're both character who like to mixup. It's just that Kasumi bypasses all of that with the guaranteed damage that she has on the offensive. Kokoro is actually forced to play the range game, something that she doesn't really want to do. In terms of that, they're even. Imo, it's somewhat similar to the Helena match up except that Kasumi kind of wants to space her out a bit since Helena has the BKO shenanigans & decent tracking, to which people have to deal with mixups. The BKO stance in general ducks Kasumi's highs & mids.

Kokoro does have the ability to retrack, but in terms normal strings, they all can be sidestepped effectively (theoretically easier said than done). This is where the no-tracking issue comes into question. Kokoro is very good at mixing up & keeping you guessing within a stun, but as I said before Kasumi can do the same thing while at the same time, bypassing it with guaranteed damage such as

H+K
PPK
4H+K
6PP
66T

These are some of the main ones that she would use. She has more of them. Nothing is really consistent with PPK & H+K, but by the time the opponent attempts to slow escape, they're being launched or extended within the stun. So it's pretty much the fact they're even in space, but upclose, Kasumi beats her in most of the categories:

Guaranteed damage
Tracking
Mixups
Speed
Defensive tools
Ceiling stages (when they're there, but this isn't all that important)

In the match Kokoro has

Damage
Safety (but not that much different)
Pushback strings to keep her out.

That's why I have this match number being the way it is. If there's anything else that needs to be mentioned, please let me know

 

[Brute]

Are you implying that he's decent or that people don't care even if he's average?

I'm saying that he could be competitively as viable as a sack of potatoes and he would still be one of the most played characters in the game because of his "fanboys."

 

[UncleKitchener]

I'm saying that he could be competitively as viable as a sack of potatoes and he would still be one of the most played characters in the game because of his "fanboys."

so, Is he good? How good is he in general? No one's given me a straight answer.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

so, Is he good? How good is he in general? No one's given me a straight answer.

He's a potential Top 10 (or possibly Top 5) character.

 

[Brute]

He's a potential Top 10 (or possibly Top 5) character.

lol

 

[Tempest]

He's a potential Top 10 (or possibly Top 5) character.

Top ten maybe, but he's not in the top 5 with Lei, Gen, Kasumi, Ayane and Christie hanging around

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Top ten maybe, but he's not in the top 5 with Lei, Gen, Kasumi, Ayane and Christie hanging around

I think he is a possible top ten, but a few Japanese players think he may be Top 5. His toolset is pretty solid all things considered. Leifang, Genfu, Ayane and Christie are pretty much Top 5 material, though I don't really think Kasumi is. She's strong no doubt though.

 

[Tempest]

I think he is a possible top ten, but a few Japanese players think he may be Top 5. His toolset is pretty solid all things considered. Leifang, Genfu, Ayane and Christie are pretty much Top 5 material, though I don't really think Kasumi is. She's strong no doubt though.

Mind explaining who you think belongs in the top 5 over Kasumi?

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Mind explaining who you think belongs in the top 5 over Kasumi?

Well, I do think Top 4 consists of Genfu, Christie, Ayane and Leifang however I don't have a lock for the #5 spot. Kasumi is Top 10 for sure, though I think Momiji or Helena may be stronger than her. Hayate may be stronger than her too, though I don't think he's top 5 either.

EDIT: @Crext Jann Lee's 6P beats out Phase-4's due to damage priority. They're both i11 in DOA5LR.

 

[Crext]

vs Jann Lee, should be 5-5, Jann may be unsafe, but he matches Phase in mid strike speed, and his damage is quite high. His neutral game and zoning potential also outclass Phase's tools in the same areas.

Isn't he faster? 11 frames vs 12 frames?

 

[J.D.E.]

Well, I do think Top 4 consists of Genfu, Christie, Ayane and Leifang however I don't have a lock for the #5 spot. Kasumi is Top 10 for sure, though I think Momiji or Helena may be stronger than her. Hayate may be stronger than her too, though I don't think he's top 5 either.

EDIT: @Crext Jann Lee's 6P beats out Phase-4's due to damage priority. They're both i11 in DOA5LR.

Hayate isn't stronger than her imo. Neither is Momiji. Helena, maybe, but not those 2. I have her just right outside of the Top 5 at 7. I just disagree with those 2. Momiji I have at like 8 or 9 with Hayate being somewhere just outside of 10

 

[Lulu]

Isn't he faster? 11 frames vs 12 frames?

I was under the impression he can only access his fastest moves from The Dragon Stance.

 

[Brute]

Isn't he faster? 11 frames vs 12 frames?

No. In 5LR they buffed Phase 4's mid poke speed up to i11 (was i12 back in 5U).

I was under the impression he can only access his fastest moves from The Dragon Stance.

No. Jann's standard 6P is i11.

 

[Lulu]

A force to be reckoned with indeed.

 

[tokiopewpew]

Well, if one really does only take a look at the plain numbers and facts on what she has over other characters in terms of defensive and offensive tools, I'd say that Kasumi could place in the top 5.

She has good speeds and tracking tools for a dangerous close range rame, viable mid range tools and even some long range tools (unsafe, but still ...). For her defensive, she has both advanced holds for additional damage and guaranteeds as well as normal and advanced parries that cover all hit levels.

That means on the first sight, she has almost everything you want to have and a lot more options as many other characters of the cast. Even Gen Fu or Leifang who are also considered as top right now don't cover all of the departments as good as she does.

Though these things get counterbalanced by some flaws in pratice. For example by her liability to crushes (she has weird hit/hurtboxes on various moves) or by the fact that she has to work a bit more to drain her opponents hitpoints as other "top" characters due to the low damage she deals in general. One could even add the hilarious poor grabrange she has on her standing throws to that.

However, since I can't imagine any other character of the cast who can also come up with all the points I listed above except the already mentioned ones, I would place her exactly on 5 in my personal list.

 

[Jefffcore]

There's no way hayabusa is that high. He just doesn't have the tool set.

At neutral he relies on crushes, holds and jabs because his mids are slow, but I wouldn't say his jab strings are that spectacular. He doesn't have ways to keep pressure as well as any grappler with the same speed mids that I know of.

Mila is superior in every way.

I'd say every grappler in the game is.