@CrayCraySteady What do you think about the Zack vs. Jacky match-up? I think that Jacky wins 6-4 or it might even be an equal MU, but the tier list says otherwise. Being a Bryant character main, I want to know your input. 
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
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Akira Yomi: Akira has a lot of deep stun moves on CH, and enough NH deep stuns to get his yomi going. What makes his stun game so strong is that it's single strike after single strike. The opponent has to GUESS what you're going to throw next if they want to counter. There really is only 6KP and 3H+KP and 2H+KP that you can counter intelligently on. That's why Akira gets so much throw damage due to frantic countering. In addition, he has a plethora of + advantage on block, which keeps advantage in his favor.Sly Bass comment:
"You've got me scratching my head over your 3-7 MU in favor of Jackie when it comes to Akira. Why so lop sided? Have you based it on your personal experience against Akira as Jackie or is it based off of game mechanics. IMO, neither character has a glaring strength against the other. Speed, strikes, throws, parries and low jabs are equally effective. Both are close range characters. If anything, Akira has better side step options, but it isn't strong enough to shift the scale."
I have based all of my MUs on 4 categories that I could think of at the time which were speed, damage/counters, yomi which is mix up, and gurantees. These are the three I came up with at the time. Maybe I missed a few categories but I'm not like a DOA expert and I can't think of every situation. Maybe I should've but when I sent my list, I still wanted to look over it to see maybe some characters are put in the wrong place. Some things could change so we can talk about it lol.
Btw NONE of my decisions were based on personal experiences against any character.
So
Yomi
In my opinion, I believe that Jacky can mix up better with Akira. Akira doesn't necessarily have to rely on grabs but that is one of his strengths. Which is good but he doesn't get that much damage off of them. The only damaging grab he has is his 64T. Creating a stun with Akira going into his grab is what will happen most of the time. Akira is hard hitting heavy, meaning he stuns but he doesn't have enough tools to keep a stun so he would have to launch fairly quickly in a match. Jacky, can easily get to the CB threshold faster and trickier which gives him more options to work from by using the variety of attacks he has in his arsenal. I am just saying that as far as poking your opponent tricking them during a match, Jacky has a better chance of doing that. I play a little Akira and its easy to get a stun off but I have trouble maintaining the stun because of how slow some of his strings are. I'm not an Akira expert nor a Jacky expert but comparing the two in the yomi category, I like Jacky's options more than Akira's.
Damage/Counters
Akira's parries can give off a lot of damage when used correctly. He is also deadly when using his frame knee in combos or even his 466P+K on counter hit. He can get off a lot of damage in a match but I feel like his most damaging options are one hitters and that are on counter hit. Jacky has his wall grab that can get a lot of free damage off of that his 4H+K that resets a combo on a launched opponent, and his flash sword kick which is similar to Akira knee whereas if you can pull it off you get damage. Akira can use 214P on a launched opponent to get more damage but it doesn't give him that much after it has been used. Akira has to bait on when to use his most damaging move like SSP+K or 466P+K. Sly mentioned that Akira's SS attacks is better than Jacky's which I agree but the only attack worth mentioning in my opinion is his SSP+K. It is evasive to where he can dance around his opponent and get a counter hit to get free damage. Again, he has to use that move cautiously in order to pull it off in a match.
Speed
Jacky and Akira have the same speed so that didn't affect my decision as much.
Guarantees
Akira 214P and 6P+K
Jacky 2P+K and 4H+K
As far as these moves goes, on hit the characters can get a fairly amount of damage from them. I am going to highlight Jacky's 4H+K and Akira's 6P+K. I highlighted those two in particular because both Jacky and Akira can get fairly enough damage from their other move. So with Jacky's 4H+K, he can get damage from that move and he doesn't have to be fairly close to his opponent. He can space them out and throw out that move constantly too get damage. With Akira's 6P+K, it is a guard break that gives him guarantee damage but it is more riskier to use in a match. Using that punch would mean they have to be close to your opponent and the opponent would have to be blocking. Maybe you can set it up during a match but it's unlikely to get hit by that constantly.
Maybe Jacky and Akira aren't that different from one another but I don't believe that they are a 5-5 with each other. Feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong or stupid lol. I am so hungry.
Damage and Speed are on par with each other. Jacky gets his through strings, Akira gets his through hard strikes. What makes Akira scary is his guarantees from guard breaks. No other character in the roster can hold a torch to his guard breaks.
Akira Guarantees:
46P
214P
43P
6P+K
P+K
236P+K
In order for me to feel a 3-7 match up, I need to be in a situation where I'm at a loss on how to combat the opponent on paper. Not me derp fighting, but actually putting down on paper how I counter the offense. Akira gets dominated by range and evasion, neither of which Jackie has. At the same time though, Akira doesn't dominate Jackie because there is enough in Jackie's arsenal to keep Akira honest. I can't justify 3-7. I'd be open to entertain a 4-6 if the data is there, but I truly believe it is a 5-5.
Steady G
Well-Known Member
@CrayCraySteady What do you think about the Zack vs. Jacky match-up? I think that Jacky wins 6-4 or it might even be an equal MU, but the tier list says otherwise. Being a Bryant character main, I want to know your input.
I believe I said that Zack was in favor of the MU because of his fast strings, grab guarantees, and his yomi. Jacky is bad...
lol
Jacky's bad? I thought that he was a decent character to be completely honest. Thanks, though. I needed some clarifications. I was sat at my screen like: "Zack beats Jacky? Dafuq?" lol.I believe I said that Zack was in favor of the MU because of his fast strings, grab guarantees, and his yomi. Jacky is bad...
Sly Bass comment:
"You've got me scratching my head over your 3-7 MU in favor of Jackie when it comes to Akira. Why so lop sided? Have you based it on your personal experience against Akira as Jackie or is it based off of game mechanics. IMO, neither character has a glaring strength against the other. Speed, strikes, throws, parries and low jabs are equally effective. Both are close range characters. If anything, Akira has better side step options, but it isn't strong enough to shift the scale."
I have based all of my MUs on 4 categories that I could think of at the time which were speed, damage/counters, yomi which is mix up, and gurantees. These are the three I came up with at the time. Maybe I missed a few categories but I'm not like a DOA expert and I can't think of every situation. Maybe I should've but when I sent my list, I still wanted to look over it to see maybe some characters are put in the wrong place. Some things could change so we can talk about it lol.
Btw NONE of my decisions were based on personal experiences against any character.
So
Yomi
In my opinion, I believe that Jacky can mix up better with Akira. Akira doesn't necessarily have to rely on grabs but that is one of his strengths. Which is good but he doesn't get that much damage off of them. The only damaging grab he has is his 64T. Creating a stun with Akira going into his grab is what will happen most of the time. Akira is hard hitting heavy, meaning he stuns but he doesn't have enough tools to keep a stun so he would have to launch fairly quickly in a match. Jacky, can easily get to the CB threshold faster and trickier which gives him more options to work from by using the variety of attacks he has in his arsenal. I am just saying that as far as poking your opponent tricking them during a match, Jacky has a better chance of doing that. I play a little Akira and its easy to get a stun off but I have trouble maintaining the stun because of how slow some of his strings are. I'm not an Akira expert nor a Jacky expert but comparing the two in the yomi category, I like Jacky's options more than Akira's.
Damage/Counters
Akira's parries can give off a lot of damage when used correctly. He is also deadly when using his frame knee in combos or even his 466P+K on counter hit. He can get off a lot of damage in a match but I feel like his most damaging options are one hitters and that are on counter hit. Jacky has his wall grab that can get a lot of free damage off of that his 4H+K that resets a combo on a launched opponent, and his flash sword kick which is similar to Akira knee whereas if you can pull it off you get damage. Akira can use 214P on a launched opponent to get more damage but it doesn't give him that much after it has been used. Akira has to bait on when to use his most damaging move like SSP+K or 466P+K. Sly mentioned that Akira's SS attacks is better than Jacky's which I agree but the only attack worth mentioning in my opinion is his SSP+K. It is evasive to where he can dance around his opponent and get a counter hit to get free damage. Again, he has to use that move cautiously in order to pull it off in a match.
Speed
Jacky and Akira have the same speed so that didn't affect my decision as much.
Guarantees
Akira 214P and 6P+K
Jacky 2P+K and 4H+K
As far as these moves goes, on hit the characters can get a fairly amount of damage from them. I am going to highlight Jacky's 4H+K and Akira's 6P+K. I highlighted those two in particular because both Jacky and Akira can get fairly enough damage from their other move. So with Jacky's 4H+K, he can get damage from that move and he doesn't have to be fairly close to his opponent. He can space them out and throw out that move constantly too get damage. With Akira's 6P+K, it is a guard break that gives him guarantee damage but it is more riskier to use in a match. Using that punch would mean they have to be close to your opponent and the opponent would have to be blocking. Maybe you can set it up during a match but it's unlikely to get hit by that constantly.
Maybe Jacky and Akira aren't that different from one another but I don't believe that they are a 5-5 with each other. Feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong or stupid lol. I am so hungry.
In terms of yomi, IMO Jacky has better access to stuns but in terms of actually opening the opponent up... Akira wins upclose. He has an easier time conditioning the opponent with his guard breaks and can keep Jacky in check. For this matchup to be 7-3, I believe Akira would have to be completely useless in both spacing and close-quarters, and this is not the case at all. Jacky is better at spacing and whiff punishment as his pokes stun fairly easily on NH and grant good damage so Akira has to be cautious on what he puts on the screen. But as i have said previously, Akira has better access to conditioning the opponent so it all comes down to who has the better defense/offense.
In terms of Damage, hands down Akira. He has massive wall damage, which might i mind you can be guaranteed. His midscreen damage is better, and his stun-launch is better. His 214P leads to a really good guaranteed launch. Jacky's main thing isn't huge damage, it's the ability to have multiple ways to get damage in terms of launches and grabs. During the threshold, he can do FSK (High) , 33P, (Midpunch), His CB (Midkick) or a 6K Launch (Midkick), and 64T (Throw that does 100+ on Hi-Counter). As i have said previously, he has easier access to stuns than Akira but due to that he does less damage.
Guarantees:
Ok, i noticed you didn't talk about Jacky's 2P+K. Jacky's 2P+K is 1 frame faster than Akira's 214P and leads into a guaranteed SS P+K and a 6P. It doesn't guarantee him a launch like Akira's 214P does. And what makes his 214P so good, is the fact that it leaves the opponent in a sitdown state, meaning that 33P is going to have a higher launch than it would if you just launched them normally. Akira's 214P is better than Jacky's 2P+K IMO. Jacky's 4H+K is In terms of it being guaranteed damage, it's better than Akira's 6P+K. BUT... in terms of what you can do after it and the potential damage from it.. Akira's 6P+K is much more deadly. Can't really compare them because they both have different purposes.
If anything.. this is 5-5. I could explain this matchup better by talking about it rather than typing, because i can go more into detail with it as this post is a bit iffy.
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I'm probably gonna catch hell for this, but I really don't see why people think Kasumi is as high as she is. Other than her speed, she really doesn't strike me as top 5.
She does have some good things going for her though.
Sadly though, her wall carry also hampers her combos "near" walls. I've lost more rounds than I care to remember to a random wall bounce from half way across arrival. Her wall game is pretty good, but so is everyone else's, and it's nowhere near a standout like Christie's or Helena's. She also doesn't blow you up for 50% off of any day one bnb like one Mr. Jann Lee. Plus his dragon gunner is amazing for keeping pressure going as a trade off to going for max damage. That's something all the top tiers have, they all have some type of way to pressure you into doing something wrong, or they can just reset you for days on any stage. I don't think any of the other top tiers have to fish for counter hits all day because they have no real ways to get a stun going otherwise that don't involve hard reads or yolo moves. While Kasumi is very good at that, she clearly suffers when against solid play. There's probably a reason almost all the offline Kasumi mains dropped her for another character.
Don't get me wrong, I really have fun playing her, I dropped her myself for a while and I'm just starting to get back into the swing of things with her again. I also realize that my experience may be skewed because I'm relatively new to DoA, but I think she's better on paper than in practice.
Edit: Formatting.
- She has pretty average damage,
- most of her lows are reactable offline, and even online in good enough connection. they're unsafe, and they knock you down on NH, so I can't even keep momentum going afterwards. God forbid you tech roll as well, then I can't even attempt a FT. Some of them have a light stun at tip range though.
- She's beyond unsafe on almost everything, even if I free cancel, and if someone really knows the MU, they can check me with their own pressure or even a throw if they're feeling ballsy because I'm -7 or 8 (being extremely generous) and I don't want to risk getting counter blown for poking out.
- She also has pretty bad crushes that are either unsafe, reactable, or both. Outside of 3P+K, 8P, and 2P anyway.
- She's a very honest character in a game full of scumbags. Mostly everyone has some effective way to open you up while Kasumi lives and dies on either counter hit poking, or risky mixups.
- Her neutral game's strength is dependent on what your opponent lets you get away with.
She does have some good things going for her though.
- Her speed, an i9 jab, i11 mid, and i12 (?) low are nothing to scoff at.
- Her spacing game is alright, and she can get in pretty quickly with 3 P+K, P.
- Her 33T is great for exploiting any slight frame advantage you get beyond jab range or for whiff punishing.
- She has a true vortex on ceiling stages.
- She has a solid amount of guaranteed damage.
- Her parry is great when applied correctly, plus you get style points for doing it.
- She probably has the best wall carry in the game.
- Even though she's forced into 2 play styles, she's very open ended on how to go about doing them..
Sadly though, her wall carry also hampers her combos "near" walls. I've lost more rounds than I care to remember to a random wall bounce from half way across arrival. Her wall game is pretty good, but so is everyone else's, and it's nowhere near a standout like Christie's or Helena's. She also doesn't blow you up for 50% off of any day one bnb like one Mr. Jann Lee. Plus his dragon gunner is amazing for keeping pressure going as a trade off to going for max damage. That's something all the top tiers have, they all have some type of way to pressure you into doing something wrong, or they can just reset you for days on any stage. I don't think any of the other top tiers have to fish for counter hits all day because they have no real ways to get a stun going otherwise that don't involve hard reads or yolo moves. While Kasumi is very good at that, she clearly suffers when against solid play. There's probably a reason almost all the offline Kasumi mains dropped her for another character.
Don't get me wrong, I really have fun playing her, I dropped her myself for a while and I'm just starting to get back into the swing of things with her again. I also realize that my experience may be skewed because I'm relatively new to DoA, but I think she's better on paper than in practice.
Edit: Formatting.
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Kasumi vs Sarah
Sarah is like any other VF character in regards to her being +1 on block after a poke or a jab. She can be faster at 2 hit levels. She has to make a read on her +1, but it doesn't shut her out completely. If Sarah throws a mid, she's losing to my jab. While it may favor mostly Sarah because of what I just mentioned of her speeds with +1 on block most of the exchanges between them goes like this:
Sarah Jab > Kasumi 6p
Sarah 6P > kasumi 6p and 2p
Sarah 2p > kasumi jab and 2p
Kasumi Jab > sarah 6P
Kasumi 6P > Sarah 2P
Kasumi 2P > Sarah Jab
It's really about who has the better read on the other at that point. So while she can be just as fast, she isn't good out in space. Kasumi is making her make mistakes forcing her to move in while she doesn't have much to fear from Sarah out in space. With 66P, 6H+K, 3K, 66K, 3P+K (to close the gap), Sarah has to fear these while approaching her. Sarah also isn't very good at crushing in the match. Kasumi has her beat in this category too from my experience as well as guaranteed damage with 4H+K, H+K, & 66T. She also has parries to her disposal to give her either the frame advantage or a guaranteed combo depending on what Sarah uses.
This is not a 6-4 match up. This is a 5-5 at best.
P+K isn't a crush. 2P, 4P, 6P, 8P, & 33P all crush. Kasumi is still very strong in 5U. Her damage was nerfed, but she's still making a lot of people do silly things. Even still, she's getting 90+ points of damage fairly easy. Her BNBs actually have changed. 6K PPKK isn't really her BNB anymore since the 6K sometimes whiff on certain characters. Her BnB is 66K~K 7K 6P+K KK, which is 73 on counter She also nets easy access to guaranteed damage as well. A lot of Kasumi players don't know what they're doing with her so they drop her. While parries aren't like Lei Fang's or Gen Fu's they still mean death if you use them correctly. Because they give you frame advantage even though they don't always guarantee, they give her enough advantage to where you wouldn't hit buttons. And when she does get a guaranteed, it's +7 or more. For example, Momiji uses PPPP which is safe at -3. If she parries that, Momiji is -7 which the 5 frames it takes to recover, she's -12 which means you're eating 6P6K for a juggle for free.
-7 or 8 doesn't mean anything to her out in open space when tools knock her out of punishment range. 3K isn't punished out in open space, only near the walls as well as 33K even though it's -16. They push her out of throw range just like PP6PK/6PK does. Kasumi is still Kasumi. Top 5? May be debatable, but she's still very good.
Sarah is like any other VF character in regards to her being +1 on block after a poke or a jab. She can be faster at 2 hit levels. She has to make a read on her +1, but it doesn't shut her out completely. If Sarah throws a mid, she's losing to my jab. While it may favor mostly Sarah because of what I just mentioned of her speeds with +1 on block most of the exchanges between them goes like this:
Sarah Jab > Kasumi 6p
Sarah 6P > kasumi 6p and 2p
Sarah 2p > kasumi jab and 2p
Kasumi Jab > sarah 6P
Kasumi 6P > Sarah 2P
Kasumi 2P > Sarah Jab
It's really about who has the better read on the other at that point. So while she can be just as fast, she isn't good out in space. Kasumi is making her make mistakes forcing her to move in while she doesn't have much to fear from Sarah out in space. With 66P, 6H+K, 3K, 66K, 3P+K (to close the gap), Sarah has to fear these while approaching her. Sarah also isn't very good at crushing in the match. Kasumi has her beat in this category too from my experience as well as guaranteed damage with 4H+K, H+K, & 66T. She also has parries to her disposal to give her either the frame advantage or a guaranteed combo depending on what Sarah uses.
This is not a 6-4 match up. This is a 5-5 at best.
P+K isn't a crush. 2P, 4P, 6P, 8P, & 33P all crush. Kasumi is still very strong in 5U. Her damage was nerfed, but she's still making a lot of people do silly things. Even still, she's getting 90+ points of damage fairly easy. Her BNBs actually have changed. 6K PPKK isn't really her BNB anymore since the 6K sometimes whiff on certain characters. Her BnB is 66K~K 7K 6P+K KK, which is 73 on counter She also nets easy access to guaranteed damage as well. A lot of Kasumi players don't know what they're doing with her so they drop her. While parries aren't like Lei Fang's or Gen Fu's they still mean death if you use them correctly. Because they give you frame advantage even though they don't always guarantee, they give her enough advantage to where you wouldn't hit buttons. And when she does get a guaranteed, it's +7 or more. For example, Momiji uses PPPP which is safe at -3. If she parries that, Momiji is -7 which the 5 frames it takes to recover, she's -12 which means you're eating 6P6K for a juggle for free.
-7 or 8 doesn't mean anything to her out in open space when tools knock her out of punishment range. 3K isn't punished out in open space, only near the walls as well as 33K even though it's -16. They push her out of throw range just like PP6PK/6PK does. Kasumi is still Kasumi. Top 5? May be debatable, but she's still very good.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
What are the requirements to make Kasumi's 6P crush? @J.D.E.
Also I agree with JDE the M.U is far from a 6-4 as Sarah doesn't have anything that presents an issue for Kasumi. Kasumi can handle her pokes just fine and even when Sarah has light frame advantage the Sarah player has to do something about Kasumi's jab if she doesn't want to trade blows all day. It is difficult for any character to frame trap Kasumi at +1 because what is normally decent advantage becomes a guessing game depending on your initial strike speeds. And this is not even taking into account holds and parries which Kasumi has going for her in these situations.
Also I agree with JDE the M.U is far from a 6-4 as Sarah doesn't have anything that presents an issue for Kasumi. Kasumi can handle her pokes just fine and even when Sarah has light frame advantage the Sarah player has to do something about Kasumi's jab if she doesn't want to trade blows all day. It is difficult for any character to frame trap Kasumi at +1 because what is normally decent advantage becomes a guessing game depending on your initial strike speeds. And this is not even taking into account holds and parries which Kasumi has going for her in these situations.
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Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
@CrayCraySteady, going by what you have for coming up with a match up I do not know how you came up with 6-4 with Sarah vs Kasumi, the match up being is Sarah's favor.
Yomi
I do not know who you have winning or if this a tie between the 2 characters. I would say that Kasumi's Yomi is stronger than Sarah's.
Spacing-wise Sarah has nowhere near the Yomi Kasumi has to poke with to start a stun. Kasumi has: 4P, 66P, 66K, 3P+K (plus all the options from it), H+K, 4H+K.
Sarah is either spacing with 66K, 2H+K, 4H+K, P+K, and 4P+K. 3 of those attacks (the 1st three) are unsafe on block (throw punishable) and they are not string starters, and string Yomi can not be applied with them. The last 2 are more-so keep out tools because they do not have any range, granted P+K is a Sabaki, it is weak to throws and Kasumi has throws in her attacks that are a part of her spacing game Yomi. All of the attacks Sarah has for Yomi at range are all mid kicks except for 2H+K if I may add, a rather weak Yomi game there.
During the stun both characters have a secondary stance transition for more mix up. Sarah's flamingo stance does have more attacks in it than Kasumi's Hoshinpo Dash. However, the throws in Kasumi's Hoshinpo Dash produces more damage that Sarah's, the punch causes a Sit-Down Stun or a bound, the Kick launches for decent juggle damage, and Critical Burst setups can be done with the Dash just like Sarah's Flamingo Stance. During a stun both characters are even, Kasumi has more strings before her stance transition and Sarah has more in her stance transition. Both with a strong Yomi game.
After a knockdown I am aware of the pseudo force tech Sarah can do but I believe she is sacrificing damage to do it. You will have to clear that up. I know she can't do it from all her juggles either. Kasumi' Yomi game to deal with wake up kicks is better than Sarah's as Sarah has to guess between the low or mid wake up to get a stun or launch. Kasumi excels at holding either options or she can flip over you and start her offense on you from BT if you do the either wake up kick. Which then eliminates Sarah or any character from doing them often or at all.
Kasumi also has a piece of DOA's Yomi game Sarah does not have, and that is string delay. String delay is a big part of DOA's meta-game and the Yomi game. After Sarah hits a button, that is it, once string recognition is set in on her it is hard for her to force players to commit where she wants them. Kausmi on the other hand can fluently force premature ducks for Counter Hits, or get players to hit a button between what they thought was a Free Cancel for Counter Hits. Kausmi is a lot more capable of this and most players are aware of her strings.
I do not see how Sarah is better than Kasumi with Yomi. It is the other way going by this unless there are more categories for Yomi in DOA (spacing, stun game mix up, knockdown, and string delay)? Going by that, Sarah is losing in 2 (spacing and string delay), even in 1 (stun game), and maybe even in another 1 (knockdown).
Damage/Counters
Kasumi has better holds for damage and setups. Sarah is a lot weaker than Kasumi is both of those main and only categories if you are going to compare Holds in a match up.
Sarah's Holds
All of them except for her Low Punch Hold ranges from 48-72 points of damage. Her Low Punch Hold ranges from 48-71 points of damage.
Kasumi's Holds
All of them range from 52-78 points of damage. Her advance Mid Kick Hold damage varies depending on where she is but mid floor 101 points of damage. Her Low Kick hold is the same as here Advanced Mid Kick Hold, the damage will vary, but mid floor it is 89 points of damage.
Kasumi is doing more damage than Sarah from holds. The setups from Kausmi's holds come from Kasumi's parries, ranging from 70 points of damage guaranteed or frame advantage. Sarah is losing to Kasumi as far as Holds or "Counters" go as well as the damage.
Sarah's Throw Damage
6T: 45-67
4T: 45-67
64T: 52-78
46T: 47-70
66T: 52-78
2T: 35-52 +10
Flamingo Stance Attack Throw: 51
Flamingo Stance OH: 45-67
Kausmi's Throw Damage
6T: 50-75
4T: 56-84
214T: 62-93
66T2T: 55-82
66TT: 70
236T: 58-105
2T: 50-75
1T: 61-92
These are not all of Kasumi's throws but the ones listed shatters the damage of Sarah's. Kasumi's 7i punish throw does just about the same amount of damage as Sarah's big damage throws. Sarah's low throw is severely weak because on Hi Counter the frame advantage still stays at +10 while doing no real damage at all.
Attack Damage
I do not know what Sarah is doing overall in this department and I do not how you view this category. When I do I can compare these numbers for you too.
Speed
Both characters are playing at he same speed. Granted Sarah has a 9i Jab that is stronger than Kausmi's but it does not cause a stun on CH and it leaves her BT. The Jab is also a double input (44) so you can't use it at will like Kasumi can by just pressing punch. So Sarah's 9i needs to be well placed and for what? Not to start an offense from it.
Guarantees
I know Sarah has her Faint Stun in her Flamingo Stance and she has her Sit-Down Stuns, 1 of which guarantee her a launcher (the faint stun in flamingo stance) and the the other a poke extending the stun (6H+K). If she has more Faint or Sit-Downs that guarantee her attacks or launchers, post them please. I know she has a quick 2-in-1 string that is a launcher and she gets good damage from that.
Kasumi has 6PP that guarantees a launcher 66K~K at critical level 2, 4H+K guarantees the same launcher under the same conditions. 4H+K also guarantees 3P when Kasumi can not launch from it, and 3P is a lift stun forcing a must hold situation. Kasumi's Stagger Stun H+K up close guarantees her a launcher. Keep in mind that the Critical Level 2 stun can achieved quickly with Kasumi (after the 2 attack that stuns besides a Jab).
Kasumi also has 7i throw (can used for throw punishment) that setups guaranteed damage or stuns.
In this category you have, I do not see how Sarah is beating Kasumi with guarantees. They seem even to me.
I see a 5-5 match up with Kasumi vs Sarah maybe even a 6-4 match up between the 2 depending on what you have in the categories. I wish what you posted privately was in here so I can go through all the categories more accurately.
Yomi
I do not know who you have winning or if this a tie between the 2 characters. I would say that Kasumi's Yomi is stronger than Sarah's.
Spacing-wise Sarah has nowhere near the Yomi Kasumi has to poke with to start a stun. Kasumi has: 4P, 66P, 66K, 3P+K (plus all the options from it), H+K, 4H+K.
Sarah is either spacing with 66K, 2H+K, 4H+K, P+K, and 4P+K. 3 of those attacks (the 1st three) are unsafe on block (throw punishable) and they are not string starters, and string Yomi can not be applied with them. The last 2 are more-so keep out tools because they do not have any range, granted P+K is a Sabaki, it is weak to throws and Kasumi has throws in her attacks that are a part of her spacing game Yomi. All of the attacks Sarah has for Yomi at range are all mid kicks except for 2H+K if I may add, a rather weak Yomi game there.
During the stun both characters have a secondary stance transition for more mix up. Sarah's flamingo stance does have more attacks in it than Kasumi's Hoshinpo Dash. However, the throws in Kasumi's Hoshinpo Dash produces more damage that Sarah's, the punch causes a Sit-Down Stun or a bound, the Kick launches for decent juggle damage, and Critical Burst setups can be done with the Dash just like Sarah's Flamingo Stance. During a stun both characters are even, Kasumi has more strings before her stance transition and Sarah has more in her stance transition. Both with a strong Yomi game.
After a knockdown I am aware of the pseudo force tech Sarah can do but I believe she is sacrificing damage to do it. You will have to clear that up. I know she can't do it from all her juggles either. Kasumi' Yomi game to deal with wake up kicks is better than Sarah's as Sarah has to guess between the low or mid wake up to get a stun or launch. Kasumi excels at holding either options or she can flip over you and start her offense on you from BT if you do the either wake up kick. Which then eliminates Sarah or any character from doing them often or at all.
Kasumi also has a piece of DOA's Yomi game Sarah does not have, and that is string delay. String delay is a big part of DOA's meta-game and the Yomi game. After Sarah hits a button, that is it, once string recognition is set in on her it is hard for her to force players to commit where she wants them. Kausmi on the other hand can fluently force premature ducks for Counter Hits, or get players to hit a button between what they thought was a Free Cancel for Counter Hits. Kausmi is a lot more capable of this and most players are aware of her strings.
I do not see how Sarah is better than Kasumi with Yomi. It is the other way going by this unless there are more categories for Yomi in DOA (spacing, stun game mix up, knockdown, and string delay)? Going by that, Sarah is losing in 2 (spacing and string delay), even in 1 (stun game), and maybe even in another 1 (knockdown).
Damage/Counters
Kasumi has better holds for damage and setups. Sarah is a lot weaker than Kasumi is both of those main and only categories if you are going to compare Holds in a match up.
Sarah's Holds
All of them except for her Low Punch Hold ranges from 48-72 points of damage. Her Low Punch Hold ranges from 48-71 points of damage.
Kasumi's Holds
All of them range from 52-78 points of damage. Her advance Mid Kick Hold damage varies depending on where she is but mid floor 101 points of damage. Her Low Kick hold is the same as here Advanced Mid Kick Hold, the damage will vary, but mid floor it is 89 points of damage.
Kasumi is doing more damage than Sarah from holds. The setups from Kausmi's holds come from Kasumi's parries, ranging from 70 points of damage guaranteed or frame advantage. Sarah is losing to Kasumi as far as Holds or "Counters" go as well as the damage.
Sarah's Throw Damage
6T: 45-67
4T: 45-67
64T: 52-78
46T: 47-70
66T: 52-78
2T: 35-52 +10
Flamingo Stance Attack Throw: 51
Flamingo Stance OH: 45-67
Kausmi's Throw Damage
6T: 50-75
4T: 56-84
214T: 62-93
66T2T: 55-82
66TT: 70
236T: 58-105
2T: 50-75
1T: 61-92
These are not all of Kasumi's throws but the ones listed shatters the damage of Sarah's. Kasumi's 7i punish throw does just about the same amount of damage as Sarah's big damage throws. Sarah's low throw is severely weak because on Hi Counter the frame advantage still stays at +10 while doing no real damage at all.
Attack Damage
I do not know what Sarah is doing overall in this department and I do not how you view this category. When I do I can compare these numbers for you too.
Speed
Both characters are playing at he same speed. Granted Sarah has a 9i Jab that is stronger than Kausmi's but it does not cause a stun on CH and it leaves her BT. The Jab is also a double input (44) so you can't use it at will like Kasumi can by just pressing punch. So Sarah's 9i needs to be well placed and for what? Not to start an offense from it.
Guarantees
I know Sarah has her Faint Stun in her Flamingo Stance and she has her Sit-Down Stuns, 1 of which guarantee her a launcher (the faint stun in flamingo stance) and the the other a poke extending the stun (6H+K). If she has more Faint or Sit-Downs that guarantee her attacks or launchers, post them please. I know she has a quick 2-in-1 string that is a launcher and she gets good damage from that.
Kasumi has 6PP that guarantees a launcher 66K~K at critical level 2, 4H+K guarantees the same launcher under the same conditions. 4H+K also guarantees 3P when Kasumi can not launch from it, and 3P is a lift stun forcing a must hold situation. Kasumi's Stagger Stun H+K up close guarantees her a launcher. Keep in mind that the Critical Level 2 stun can achieved quickly with Kasumi (after the 2 attack that stuns besides a Jab).
Kasumi also has 7i throw (can used for throw punishment) that setups guaranteed damage or stuns.
In this category you have, I do not see how Sarah is beating Kasumi with guarantees. They seem even to me.
I see a 5-5 match up with Kasumi vs Sarah maybe even a 6-4 match up between the 2 depending on what you have in the categories. I wish what you posted privately was in here so I can go through all the categories more accurately.
It's character dependent. I found out the other day that it crushes certain setups & certain tools that characters use.
Allan Paris
Well-Known Member
It works on all characters. This is not the thread to discus this. We do that in the Kasumi board.
@Shadow985 you will not catch hell for it, but for the most part Kasumi is up there because what she is capable of in doing her match ups. What you posted sounds like a gameplay issue that you are having. I can help and clear them up for you but not in this thread. Try to keep match up discussions going the best way we can in here.
DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
not too sure of anyone other than the usual top tiers, don't have enough knowledge on the rest of the cast to make an accurate matchup ratio and since im stuck on core fighters i don't have access to 90% of the roster so im just gonna hold off until LR since things can change significantly in the new game
I agree with it. He's at a disadvantage on them. Both require him to guess more so than other characters; he has difficulty interrupting their strings due to his speed; he has difficulty landing his non-high-crushing attacks due to each of their evasive properties. Also, in general, their good strings are either safe or difficult to read the free cancel.@Mr. Wah what would you rate the
They're listed as 3-7, do I'm curious to know why that may be the case.
Cool. I know there are quite a lot of people who strongly disagree with the game having 3-7 MUs, but this is actually the case when you at frame advantage and you still have to guess just so your strikes are not crushed out of nowhere.
People underestimate Kokoro and Eliot.
For the Eliot matchup I wouldn't put 7-3 on Eliot (Fork actually plays Eliot so I can see where he is coming on that one but I don't see it as that much advantage, 6-4 at best 5-5 at worst). Eliot's speed and strings are not to be underestimated in this matchup. He may lose damage on Super Heavies in general but his parries nullify Leon's strike game when he connects one and can turn the match at a late stage into his favor just from that parry. Leon's charged attacks can be seen a mile away, doesn't have nearly as good mixup as Eliot, and is primarily a mid height striker. I would say Leon is 6-4 better, but not 7-3 better (even given the Leon tech we are starting to find). Fork knows Eliot better than I do but that is my thoughts on that.
My Kokoro knowledge isn't all that great (child of the devil that she is) but it definitely isn't 7-3. People can argue all day that that she is linear as hell and has no guaranteed damage but she doesn't need to have much tracking the way the 5/5U strike retracking plays and she has a hell of a lot more guaranteed damage than Leon. Faster strikes, sabakis, stronger crushing, unbreakable combo throw that doesn't leave her at disadvantage, fairly evasive stance/throw, easier CB, better mixup, I would argue better air game but that would only be away from walls and breakables.
Shocker. I'm saying bad things about Leon when I'm supposed to say good things but right now those are the only two I see that should be reconsidered on both sides.
Edit: Very vague Leon matchup references were made. My bad.
For the Eliot matchup I wouldn't put 7-3 on Eliot (Fork actually plays Eliot so I can see where he is coming on that one but I don't see it as that much advantage, 6-4 at best 5-5 at worst). Eliot's speed and strings are not to be underestimated in this matchup. He may lose damage on Super Heavies in general but his parries nullify Leon's strike game when he connects one and can turn the match at a late stage into his favor just from that parry. Leon's charged attacks can be seen a mile away, doesn't have nearly as good mixup as Eliot, and is primarily a mid height striker. I would say Leon is 6-4 better, but not 7-3 better (even given the Leon tech we are starting to find). Fork knows Eliot better than I do but that is my thoughts on that.
My Kokoro knowledge isn't all that great (child of the devil that she is) but it definitely isn't 7-3. People can argue all day that that she is linear as hell and has no guaranteed damage but she doesn't need to have much tracking the way the 5/5U strike retracking plays and she has a hell of a lot more guaranteed damage than Leon. Faster strikes, sabakis, stronger crushing, unbreakable combo throw that doesn't leave her at disadvantage, fairly evasive stance/throw, easier CB, better mixup, I would argue better air game but that would only be away from walls and breakables.
Shocker. I'm saying bad things about Leon when I'm supposed to say good things but right now those are the only two I see that should be reconsidered on both sides.
Edit: Very vague Leon matchup references were made. My bad.
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DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
I never said those matchups were 7-3 Leon, which he doesn't have on anyone on the roster nor does anyone have a 7-3 advantage over him. i use decimal values so when i say he has more of an advantage on them it means its 6-4 advantage at best while his less advantage matchups are 5.5-4.5 at best in his favor
Not 100% sure on kokoro she could be 5.5-4.5 disadvantage against Leon but Eliot is a definite 6-4 advantage matchup for Leon. Eliot doesn't have the speed advantage to make a difference to overwhelm Leon at close range and actually has slower mids than him and equal speed lows so his only speed advantage are high attacks which i already mention Leon's easily crushes especially 33p which i recently discovered gives Leon a guaranteed damage setup that can only be blocked or held on fastest stagger escape apart from his go-to 7p single guess must hold setups from 33p.
Eliots mixups rely soley on his free cancelling as his natural mixups aren't anything special since on NH his lows actually leave him at disadvantage meaning theres no real reason for opponents to even bother reacting to his lows other than 2H+K and its variants which are linear and steppable while only having one follow up that is easily reactable. which brings me to my point of his damage output plummeting on super heavies...eliot thrives off his instant 3p juggle extenders which are rendered null and void on Leon compared to what Leon can do to eliot being a super light weight so not only does eliot have a hard time opening opponents up in general but even if he does he has to play the stun game to get decent damage on opponents lighter than super heavies compared to the gimped damage he gets on Leon and other super heavies
Eliots parry is only good for the fact that it interrupts an opponents offense, he gets nothing scary guaranteed from them not even a stun like genfu or leifangs or even small damage like baymans or hitomi's. the go-to post parry follow up eliot has is 9kk launch which can be held or even low hold spammed out of...other than that he has 3k and its sds followup which also can be held and even if hit by it the advantage he gets from it and all his sds is trash. Even with that Leon can still hi counter throw him out of his parries for huge damage if the eliot player tries to rely on them too much
So overall
Eliots advantages over Leon- Faster highs, the ability to potentially interrupt leon's strike pressure with parries but at the cost of risking getting high counter thrown for a shit ton of damage
Leons advantages over Eliot-Faster mids,vastly higher damage output, better lows,more guaranteed damage setups(eliot has zero), better crushes, better ground pressure, better throws, OH's, Super Heavy, better neutral game, better holds,better tracking, better guardbreaks, better SDSs, two stun CB setups off any stun with his chargeable p+k, doesn't need to play the stun game at all unlike eliot, multiple 2in1 strings, better wall pressure, better environmental use.
Eliot can still win the match but no where near as easily as Leon can win against him
so yeah its 6-4 Leon on this one no question about it
Not 100% sure on kokoro she could be 5.5-4.5 disadvantage against Leon but Eliot is a definite 6-4 advantage matchup for Leon. Eliot doesn't have the speed advantage to make a difference to overwhelm Leon at close range and actually has slower mids than him and equal speed lows so his only speed advantage are high attacks which i already mention Leon's easily crushes especially 33p which i recently discovered gives Leon a guaranteed damage setup that can only be blocked or held on fastest stagger escape apart from his go-to 7p single guess must hold setups from 33p.
Eliots mixups rely soley on his free cancelling as his natural mixups aren't anything special since on NH his lows actually leave him at disadvantage meaning theres no real reason for opponents to even bother reacting to his lows other than 2H+K and its variants which are linear and steppable while only having one follow up that is easily reactable. which brings me to my point of his damage output plummeting on super heavies...eliot thrives off his instant 3p juggle extenders which are rendered null and void on Leon compared to what Leon can do to eliot being a super light weight so not only does eliot have a hard time opening opponents up in general but even if he does he has to play the stun game to get decent damage on opponents lighter than super heavies compared to the gimped damage he gets on Leon and other super heavies
Eliots parry is only good for the fact that it interrupts an opponents offense, he gets nothing scary guaranteed from them not even a stun like genfu or leifangs or even small damage like baymans or hitomi's. the go-to post parry follow up eliot has is 9kk launch which can be held or even low hold spammed out of...other than that he has 3k and its sds followup which also can be held and even if hit by it the advantage he gets from it and all his sds is trash. Even with that Leon can still hi counter throw him out of his parries for huge damage if the eliot player tries to rely on them too much
So overall
Eliots advantages over Leon- Faster highs, the ability to potentially interrupt leon's strike pressure with parries but at the cost of risking getting high counter thrown for a shit ton of damage
Leons advantages over Eliot-Faster mids,vastly higher damage output, better lows,more guaranteed damage setups(eliot has zero), better crushes, better ground pressure, better throws, OH's, Super Heavy, better neutral game, better holds,better tracking, better guardbreaks, better SDSs, two stun CB setups off any stun with his chargeable p+k, doesn't need to play the stun game at all unlike eliot, multiple 2in1 strings, better wall pressure, better environmental use.
Eliot can still win the match but no where near as easily as Leon can win against him
so yeah its 6-4 Leon on this one no question about it
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