Throw Break Suggestions

[Brute]

So, call me crazy, but I've been thinking this for a while and Rikuto's words on the subject of throw breaks recently got me thinking again (not that we want that thread back, so keep your rage fits in your other pants).

What do you all think about these proposed changes?
-Throws can be broken in the first 4 frames of animation if the defender inputs the same command of the throw they were caught with
-Hi Counter throws are inescapable
-Combo throws and holds can only be broken if the defender inputs the same inputs at each stage of the combo throw that the attacker must input to continue the throw

So, yeah. Maybe I'm off my rocker and feel free to call me out for it. But as someone who gravitates toward grappler characters and gets a stiffy from HiC combo throws, reworking the throws to make them more of a mind game would work great for me.

 

[synce]

I like the idea of HCH throws being inescapable but I don't agree with having to input directions to break NH throws. It only works in VF5FS because the commands are simpler and throws are slower. So IMO a simple T should do it

 

[Rapham0n]

So, call me crazy, but I've been thinking this for a while and Rikuto's words on the subject of throw breaks recently got me thinking again (not that we want that thread back, so keep your rage fits in your other pants).

What do you all think about these proposed changes?
-Throws can be broken in the first 4 frames of animation if the defender inputs the same command of the throw they were caught with
-Hi Counter throws are inescapable
-Combo throws and holds can only be broken if the defender inputs the same inputs at each stage of the combo throw that the attacker must input to continue the throw

So, yeah. Maybe I'm off my rocker and feel free to call me out for it. But as someone who gravitates toward grappler characters and gets a stiffy from HiC combo throws, reworking the throws to make them more of a mind game would work great for me.

I like your first idea. (I also understand it, seeing as I'm a long time Tekken player.) I was actually very surprised when I found out that command throws can't be broken in DOA. It's definitely something to get used to if you come from a fighting game series that does allows command throws to be broken.

I'm not entirely sure about your second idea. If the damage can be reduced for Hi Counter throws then I'd be OK with them being inescapable.

I agree 100% with your third idea. I've actually just recently been put off of using grappling characters because my friends just button mash their way out of my combo throws.

 

[werewolfgold]

Don't we already have the system where if you time your combo throws perfectly, they can't be broken anyway? You want to add another hurdle on top of that? Now, on top of them being helpless if your timing is good, they now have to know the inputs of every combo throw in the game (even ones that can branch off into different throws) and then pick the right one? I mean, good grief, Tekken only has 1 or 2 or 1+2 to get out of everything, including combo throws. Now you want directions, too? That sounds excessive.

If they just tighten the escape window and make mashing out of it less effective, that should be sufficient.

 

[Brute]

Don't we already have the system where if you time your combo throws perfectly, they can't be broken anyway? You want to add another hurdle on top of that? Now, on top of them being helpless if your timing is good, they now have to know the inputs of every combo throw in the game (even ones that can branch off into different throws) and then pick the right one? That sounds excessive.

If they just tighten the escape window and make mashing out of it less effective, that should be sufficient.

Making it more difficult for the defender than the attacker and requiring the defender to know their opponent's movelist to better fight against them? Sounds good to me.

As we have it now, attacker gets:
Same frame priority

Defender gets:
Less effort/knowledge required

I would like more on the attacker's side.

I'm not entirely sure about your second idea. If the damage can be reduced for Hi Counter throws then I'd be OK with them being inescapable.

"Whiffed" holds should be punishable. Very, very punishable. Especially by grapplers, who rely on that system more heavily than other characters do. The threat of big, guaranteed damage needs to be present to deter people from hold spamming. Thus, holds will become more defensive and only used as a "read" rather than a "blind guess."

If anything I'd like to see HiC throws deal even more damage.

 

[werewolfgold]

Making it more difficult for the defender than the attacker and requiring the defender to know their opponent's movelist to better fight against them? Sounds good to me.

Knowing the matchup and the tools that might be used against you is one thing. Keeping track of all of the inputs on top of that for, perhaps, multiple characters you may not even use is something else. It's not an insurmountable feat, surely, but probably still a little high for people that are just walking in the door. Keep in mind that it's not only "grappler" characters that have combo throws.

Making it so you have to time the escape correctly and not just mash it out would do it a world of good. I believe they call that the "Throw Reject Miss" in Blazblue. AND to have that all just be overwritten if the person using the throw has been practicing their timing? I'm fine with that.

 

[Matt Ponton]

I've never been able to know the amount of frames, but I believe the game ignores your input if you pressed the throw button too early for a combo throw. Like ignores for 30 or 60 frames.

 

[werewolfgold]

But, does it lock you out if you mess up, though? That's the "throw reject miss" concept.

 

[Matt Ponton]

No, but it basically gives your opponent the time to complete the combo/break.

 

[Berzerk!]

As discussed in many balance threads I'm very much in favour of a throw break system

There's no reason not to institute it in a modern fighter, yes in Doa you use throws to punish holds but this can be done on a curve and not be restricted by being slavish about the triangle system

I think I was one of the first to say it but it IS bleeding obvious, just make throws unbreakable when in hold and hold recovery

You get the punishment purpose of throws vs holds and the strategic benefits of throw breaks which in VF5FS in particular is a fantastic defensive layer

 

[Tenryuga]

I'm with Brute on this. I want to see hi-counter throws from strikers doing 40-45% off their best grab and grapplers doing 55%+.

As for a throw break system I feel only NH throws should be breakable and they should be breakable VF style to encourage use of ALL throws. For example Kasumi has a 12 frame 214T that does 55 damage. Why the hell would I use that over her 236T that does 75 damage max and has a force tech that does 1 point less than 214T? With Oboro being 12 frame 65 or 68 damage in 5U why would I use any other grab if quick easy damage is my goal?

It's not that easy to react to punch grab attempts from 12 framers so it's not like I'd need the speed of 5-10 frame throws. With a VF style throwbreak use of otherwise pointless throws like Kasumi's 214T is encouraged.

 

[RubinRoon]

What about OHs that hit on Neutral. Do you think they also should be breakable?

 

[Matt Ponton]

No, just like they aren't breakable in VF.

 

[shunwong]

Id like throw breaks in DOA, but Id also like throws to be all around the same speed (8-9 frames). (Almost) All throws being the same speed + throw breaks would give safety and consistency.


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[Brute]

What about OHs that hit on Neutral. Do you think they also should be breakable?

Not unless they're combo holds in which later parts can be broken via "new" combo throw break method.

Another thing I'd like to "throw" out there is neutral frames after throw breaks. The whole system that exists now is ridiculous (I'm looking at Mila and Bass for the highest degree of inconsistent BS).

 

[Matt Ponton]

I wouldn't mind an SC5 style throw break (dis)advantage. The later you throw break the more disadvantage you're in. If you throw break early you can actually gain 1 or 2 frames of advantage.

 

[Jacnob]

I don't know, I would like the change personally but I can already feel the amount of hate TN would get from all those grappler users.

 

[RubinRoon]

I don't know, I would like the change personally but I can already feel the amount of hate TN would get from all those grappler users.

As far as i understand it actually aids grapplers more than it hurts them, since they are able to defend against pressure better. The HC throws, which are one of their main damage sources, are still unbreakable. Rikuto mentioned that unbreakable throws encourage the defending player to play more recklessly. I know see what he means.

As it is now, a fast character with low damage throws can still harass you using unbreakable throws to chip your health away and knock you down, let alone the guaranteed damage set up throws (Weird that non-grapplers have those to begin with). It is also hard to react to throw-attempts with all those string delays.

 

[Jacnob]

Thanks for the explanation RubinRoon.

 

[Rikuto]

I like the idea of HCH throws being inescapable but I don't agree with having to input directions to break NH throws. It only works in VF5FS because the commands are simpler and throws are slower. So IMO a simple T should do it

That wouldn't work for a few reasons.

First, throw breaks at their core are usually used as a form of passive defense. That's when in SC and VF you are able to buffer throw break attempts while guarding without putting yourself in a situation where your character is doing crazy stuff you don't want them to do.

Of course, you can't break every possible throw type so you have to dedicate yourself to a specific throw you want broken. For example, a throw that would put you into the ceiling would be bad, so you decide you will always break that throw and effectively become immune to it, while making yourself vulnerable to every other throw.

That's why directionals are important, it introduces an additional layer of meta on defense that is currently missing.

The Tekken approach is the only one that is truly reactable, but throws actually beat strikes in that system to help balance it out. It isn't something that should be done in DOA as it would cause too much rebalance across the board for every throw to work that way.

Simply having one button break every type of throw in DOA would frankly be too good, and it doesn't add any real meta.