Glenn Couch
Member
Then how would you improve her neutral game?
ways to improve Honoka and stay in flavor of the character
- Thread starter Glenn Couch
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Raansu
Well-Known Member
Give her more advantage on block to make up for her lack of reach and let her transition her stances on block.
Glenn Couch
Member
I agree very much so
Glenn Couch
Member
Is she a super light weight? I never noticed it. Also earlier in the thread I do make a comment on her size when it comes to combat.Have her breast weight her down, because it makes no sense to have a bust that size at her height and weight, but still be fast with a 9f jab. Not mention, she's super light weight, but I'm sure her bust adds some additional pounds to her weight class.
Glenn Couch
Member
Another thing the could do for honoka is giving a grab from bokuho. To increase her damage potential they could give live a variant of Rachel's 41236T that way it would be slower purely do the motion to balance it.
For me I like honoka for the gimmicks she was given if you take moves that are unique to a character such as trying to take the 'dragon gunner' from jann lee or the bonkuho throw from helena. That wouldn't make them unique anymore because another character has is. Granted that Honoka is a copy paste character to make her more unique she NEEDS to be able to transition into her own stance raw and like phase 4 have the ability to transition on block because of her short range. Some moves they gave her do not highlight the strenths she does have, like have the buffulo train from bass. What is the point of it unless you want to troll, and even then you can't really do it efficienly with honoka or bass,as well as the whole drop kicks they gave her. They give bass and tina advantage so that they can scare you with there ground game, honoka des not have that so they are really just used to say"get off me kid" but once you do that you are back to "Now i got to get close in again". I think some effective changes to that would be to give her marie roses 2H+K so she can put on the pressure while on someone. There is just so much o could do to Honoka but these ideas are the highlights of what i qould like in her as a character. Moves that exemplifies her strengths up close and personal.
Nikotsumi
Well-Known Member
I definitely agree that she has to be able to transition into Heichu and Dragon Stance even on block, this would make her neutral a bit easier. The only problem is that all her moves from Dragon Stance are unsafe (except P), though there is always the guard break (P+K) from Heichu into Hissatsu, this could be interesting.
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Well actually i meant to say just her unique stance if she could transition all of her stances in block she would be broken for the fact that she has good follow up from most of her stances.
Y'know, every time I hear people saying "Honoka needs to be able to stance transition on block", generally tells me you (the player) don't necessarily know how to open someone up in neutral.
Honoka has a good neutral for a few reasons;
1) i9/i11/i13 strike speed where your jab is now -1 on block, you have an i11 6P mid punch and an i12 6K mid kick with a low follow up. Your 6PP is semi-safe at -7 up close, -5 at a distance (max distance, easy to establish). Your 2P low jab is +0 on neutral hit.
2) 6T is an i7 frame throw that grants +8 frame advantage. A standard (or creative) mix up for tick throwing makes this throw scary.
3) PPPK and PP6P are good strings to keep someone in check for trying to get around the highs in PPP.
4) 46P, 4H+K and 8H+K are very good guard breaks to utilize/abuse on a blocking opponent.
How do you use these guard breaks well on a blocking opponent? Condition them.
Jab free cancel jab is very good with this character.
Jab > 2P
2P > Jab
PP free cancel
2P > PP Free cancel
PP6P (delayed or not)
PPPK (delayed or not)
Jab > 1K (follow ups are optional)
Jab > 214P+K
Jab > 3P (follow ups are optional)
Jab > 46P
Jab > 8H+K
Jab > 4H+K
The last three will work once you condition someone to expect strings from you. Any of these can be attempted outside of just jab free cancel. PP, 2P > Jab, etc. When you have to rely on just string manipulation itself to open someone up, it makes it harder on yourself to open someone up with characters with limited string use in neutral. Because it's just a wait and see approach from the defensive player and that is a lot easier to catch on to.
Stance transition is only meant for an offensive mix up attempt, not for neutral game.
I think the better question here should be "How can I improve with Honoka?"
Going to be straight here; every character in the game has some issue (that's in any game). As a player, you need to learn and figure out how to make the most of what your character has and use it well.
The way this thread is labeled makes it sound like players need to rely on their character, rather than build their skill with the character. You should want to build yourself with your character, rather than blame it's shortcomings.
Folks that want some kind of help with Honoka, I'm open for putting together sessions online for that. Just putting that out there.
Honoka has a good neutral for a few reasons;
1) i9/i11/i13 strike speed where your jab is now -1 on block, you have an i11 6P mid punch and an i12 6K mid kick with a low follow up. Your 6PP is semi-safe at -7 up close, -5 at a distance (max distance, easy to establish). Your 2P low jab is +0 on neutral hit.
2) 6T is an i7 frame throw that grants +8 frame advantage. A standard (or creative) mix up for tick throwing makes this throw scary.
3) PPPK and PP6P are good strings to keep someone in check for trying to get around the highs in PPP.
4) 46P, 4H+K and 8H+K are very good guard breaks to utilize/abuse on a blocking opponent.
How do you use these guard breaks well on a blocking opponent? Condition them.
Jab free cancel jab is very good with this character.
Jab > 2P
2P > Jab
PP free cancel
2P > PP Free cancel
PP6P (delayed or not)
PPPK (delayed or not)
Jab > 1K (follow ups are optional)
Jab > 214P+K
Jab > 3P (follow ups are optional)
Jab > 46P
Jab > 8H+K
Jab > 4H+K
The last three will work once you condition someone to expect strings from you. Any of these can be attempted outside of just jab free cancel. PP, 2P > Jab, etc. When you have to rely on just string manipulation itself to open someone up, it makes it harder on yourself to open someone up with characters with limited string use in neutral. Because it's just a wait and see approach from the defensive player and that is a lot easier to catch on to.
Stance transition is only meant for an offensive mix up attempt, not for neutral game.
I think the better question here should be "How can I improve with Honoka?"
Going to be straight here; every character in the game has some issue (that's in any game). As a player, you need to learn and figure out how to make the most of what your character has and use it well.
The way this thread is labeled makes it sound like players need to rely on their character, rather than build their skill with the character. You should want to build yourself with your character, rather than blame it's shortcomings.
Folks that want some kind of help with Honoka, I'm open for putting together sessions online for that. Just putting that out there.
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Actually you are right, however, how many uses have you gotten out of her hissatsu no kamae. All i was simply referring to was the fact that i feel as a honoka player
She should be able to use her own unique stance on block. If you want to go by your way of playing then phase 4 didn't really need to have transitions on block just make her moves faster.
Honoka and Phase 4 are two completely different characters.
And 66K P+K from Phase 4 actually isn't very good block, a lot of players just have no general reaction time to it.
And 66K P+K from Phase 4 actually isn't very good block, a lot of players just have no general reaction time to it.
Anyway, this is just a wish that it all nothing more nothing less, i just like her for the gimmicky set ups she has and her infectious theme song.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Ya her neutral game is so great that no one is using her *rolls eyes*
Her reach is terrible and you literally just opened every example with her jab.....Half of her tools are locked away behind stance transitions that can't be used on block. Pretending she's good and telling people they suck at neutral doesn't change the fact that Honokas neutral game is still gimmicky and terrible and you literally prove that point in your own post.
Stance transitions are gimmicky too but at least it would give her some better options as several of her stance transitions have decent range. As it is you have to be point blank to even touch your opponent with most of your moves. Heaven forbid she gets a bit of threat from transitioning stances on block and being able to mix in her stance throw like other characters can.
Because you can't mash or auto-pilot.
I said "Any of these can be attempted outside of just jab free cancel."
Yes her reach is bad, which is why her walk speed is way above average and her 6T has longer range than most other 6T forward throws. I have to assume you've never seen any bit of my Honoka tutorial. I have said this time and time again, you are not going to be successful with this character if you cannot play a footsie game.
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Personally I'm fine with the fact that she can't transition into her stances on block. Even if they gave her moves stance transition properties on block, why would - for example - 6H+K into Dragon Stance be useful on block? If they block 6H+K, they would be able to punish both the raw 6H+K and the 6H+K into Dragon Stance with a 10 frame throw since it is -11 no matter what. And PPP leaves her at -6 so her opponent wouldn't have to respect her Dragon Stance followups. The same story goes for Dokuritsu-Ho H+K into Hissatsu stance. 3K can be punished so it is no use to give it a stance transition property on block. Also, 8P transition on block to Heichu could be shutdown with a sidestep since none of its followups track if I recall correctly.
I usually open up my opponents with faster strikes, such as her jab strings, 6P, 6K and 3P(PP). Then in stun I can fill the threshold with moves that would be unsafe on block such as 6H+K, 3K, etc. Furthermore, having access to a jab which is only -1 on block is still a frame trap against characters with an i11 or slower jab, and her 2P only being i13 and +0 on Normal Hit is certainly not bad. In addition, she has a 6P which is only 11 frames with delayable followups. She can also use 4K and 3H+K at mid to long range combat which are both very safe! Finally she has a superb 6T with amazing reach which gives +8 frame advantage and that makes it easier to open up her opponent. I wouldn't say she has a bad neutral game at all.
TL;DR
Stance transitions on block have no practical use since a smart player will punish her and would realize that he/she doesn't have to respect Honoka's block disadvantage. Therefore I recommend sticking to her faster strikes in CQC such as her jab strings, 6P, 6K and 3P(PP) to open up your opponent.
I usually open up my opponents with faster strikes, such as her jab strings, 6P, 6K and 3P(PP). Then in stun I can fill the threshold with moves that would be unsafe on block such as 6H+K, 3K, etc. Furthermore, having access to a jab which is only -1 on block is still a frame trap against characters with an i11 or slower jab, and her 2P only being i13 and +0 on Normal Hit is certainly not bad. In addition, she has a 6P which is only 11 frames with delayable followups. She can also use 4K and 3H+K at mid to long range combat which are both very safe! Finally she has a superb 6T with amazing reach which gives +8 frame advantage and that makes it easier to open up her opponent. I wouldn't say she has a bad neutral game at all.
TL;DR
Stance transitions on block have no practical use since a smart player will punish her and would realize that he/she doesn't have to respect Honoka's block disadvantage. Therefore I recommend sticking to her faster strikes in CQC such as her jab strings, 6P, 6K and 3P(PP) to open up your opponent.
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I think everyone is over thinking what i said she needs to be able to have a move that puts her into her own stance either raw or on block. She needs to have the hissatsu stance input. I don't really care much about her other stances because they are all negative if blocked and can be punished respectfully so.
To be fair, my first post wasn't directed towards you. It was a general post after reading the thread.