Would you want Kasumi and Hayate in Ninja Gaiden story mode

[TheDragonAwakens]

Your argument appears to be that Itagaki respects female characters more because he doesn't pointlessly sexualize them as much as Hayashi (lol). But let's look at Ninja Gaiden itself.
NG1: Rachel.
NG2: Rachel again. Er, I mean, "Irene."
NG3: Clothed female who is not a copy-pasted BDSM fantasy.

And there is Alma in NG1 with huge exposed tits with the nipples being painted gold, and Elizebet in NG2 that shows a lot of cleavage and bathes in a pool of blood nude. Who sexualises fiends anyway?

 

[Sotherius]

Hmmm... this is a subject that i can go on possibilities over and over.

First of all, Ryu and Ayane are way better and interesting characters in NG games than they are in DOA, i honestly think that hayate and Kasumi could get that treatment.

All this talk about kasumi being innocent, is what i don't like about her character, her whole motivation in the start of the series is revenge and you want to convince me that she is not ready to chop some heads off? Also, i mentioned a lot of times in the discord, but every tiny bit of evidence points to kasumi being the stronger of the ninjas, besides Ryu of course, she is weirdly strong, is insane, if Kasumi dropped the "i don't want to fight you thing", her character would be much better.

Hayate could also be useful to something really, and one more new moveset to be included in the NG series would be really cool as well.

But see, i say this because i like what is done with ryu and ayane in the ninja gaiden series, both as characters, and i love to play with their movesets in ng3re, and i love to play as ryu in ngb and ng2 as well (still hate ng2 though), but that kind of character development is something that could be made to happen in DOA, frankly, DOA needs better characterization in general, but i still think that adding characters is nice for the variety of moveset, but that can be done the way Momiji and Kasumi are included in ng3re... just playable in chapter challenges.

Now, to resume my point. Ninja Gaiden is ryu's story, and it is about him, but i think there is space to include other characters in the story, small chapters, or even so, in an ideal world, each character having a complete campaign on their own, but honestly, is not necessary, they do nods to DOA since ngblack, and those nods are enough from a story standpoint, just add extra characters to be playable on chapter challenges and mission mode, give them interesting movesets to work with, and i'll be happy.

 

[TheDragonAwakens]

All this talk about kasumi being innocent, is what i don't like about her character, her whole motivation in the start of the series is revenge and you want to convince me that she is not ready to chop some heads off? Also, i mentioned a lot of times in the discord, but every tiny bit of evidence points to kasumi being the stronger of the ninjas, besides Ryu of course, she is weirdly strong, is insane, if Kasumi dropped the "i don't want to fight you thing", her character would be much better.

Personally, I don't agree that Kasumi is the stronger of the ninjas but more of the same level of Hayate and Ayane for several reasons. First one being that Hayate fought Kasumi in DOA2 and defeated her in his amnesiac state, with only karate alone. One can argue that Kasumi is stronger because she defeated Raidou in hand to hand combat. In the later scene, both Kasumi and Raidou casted the Torn Sky Blast against each other, with Raidou overpowering Kasumi at first. If not for Busa's intervention, Kasumi would have been in a similar, or a worse state than Hayate. If we look at the scene where Raidou came back to the village to steal the Torn Sky Blast Technique, the reason for Hayate's downfall was because he used the Torn Sky Blast against him, which was also what Kasumi did in DOA1. Just because Hayate got bitch slapped by Raidou in that scene does not automatically make him weaker than Kasumi. What we saw there was the process of the fight. And in the fight between Kasumi and Raidou, we never how their fight processed, we just saw what happened at the end. For all we know, Kasumi was bitch slapped by Raidou just like Hayate in the process of the fight, but managed to overcome him in the end. If Hayate had been more patient in fighting against Raidou and avoided using the Torn Sky Blast, it's quite possible that he may be able to defeat Raidou. Just my 2 cents.

Back to the main point, the NG story should always focus on Busa alone, in every chapter of the story he will be the only playable character. Momiji can get some involvement in the NG story, but I'd be disappointed if Ayane's role is bigger than hers, because Momiji is a Hayabusa ninja and Busa's apprentice, so she should get more involvement instead as NG is centered around the Hayabusa clan.

For Kasumi, I don't really want her in the story for reasons I don't really want to share, but I would not mind Hayate as long as he's just doing something cool in a brief moment, as he's never going to improve in DOA.

Still, making them playable characters outside story mode? I don't mind.

 

[Sotherius]

but I'd be disappointed if Ayane's role is bigger than hers,

But ayane has a big role in ng games, and no, hayate got bitch slapped, humiliated, kasumi is way stronger than him, Kasumi (the real one) probably just can't fight at her best against Hayate because brother and nii-san and all of that bullshit, another argument that i could bring to that, is that to kill fake Kasumi Hayate and Ayane had to fight together, so it was a 2v1. I like hayate as a design, but man, his character is terrible, and I don't see ein as a much better character either.

Also, a story gets stale if it is focused only on the main character, since NGblack we have ayane aiding ryu in some situations, and also, Rachel saving ryu's life before the final battle, having the other characters have small chapters is not detrimental at all, i would argue that is beneficial.

And again, gameplay-wise, you only have to gain from extra characters, at worst they'll be forgetable, at best they'll have unique movesets that could not fit into ryu, that add to the game experience overall.

The 2 chapters ayane have in ng3re are the perfect example of that to me, she is doing something for the story, something that ryu couldn't do because he was not there, but she didn't take the spotlight at any point. Ayane, Momiji and Kasumi as playable characters are also a good example of what can be done (and improved gameplay wise).

I could go on and on about each moveset and how they have elements that do not fit ryu, and also how they are unique, but i don't think many people here cares that much about ninja gaiden in this subject as me.

My point still stands, having extra playable characters is great, having them in the story is not necessary, but appreciated.

 

[TheDragonAwakens]

hayate got bitch slapped, humiliated, kasumi is way stronger than him, Kasumi (the real one) probably just can't fight at her best against Hayate because brother and nii-san and all of that bullshit, another argument that i could bring to that, is that to kill fake Kasumi Hayate and Ayane had to fight together, so it was a 2v1. I like hayate as a design, but man, his character is terrible, and I don't see ein as a much better character either.

Like I said, we saw the process of the fight between Hayate and Raidou, and that's why we know he was bitch slapped. However, we never saw how Kasumi fought Raidou, we only saw the end result. It's quite possible that Kasumi struggled against Raidou, but we do not know if it's true. About that brother and nii-saan bullshit, yes you might have a point. However, on the 2 v 1 fight, it was probably to make the job of killing the fake Kasumi easier. Ayane was at Hayate's side at the moment, why would someone abandon their superior to let them do the fight alone? That's dishonourable. If Ayane was not by Hayate's side, maybe then we can compare Hayate's and Kasumi's strength. But then again, the fake Kasumi has the mind of the real Kasumi, so very likely she will not fight with her best. Send me a PM if you have other points to bring in, I don't want to derail this thread.

Also, a story gets stale if it is focused only on the main character, since NGblack we have ayane aiding ryu in some situations, and also, Rachel saving ryu's life before the final battle, having the other characters have small chapters is not detrimental at all, i would argue that is beneficial.

There was one part of the NG1 story that involves Ayane I am not cool with - hiding a useful weapon, the windmill shuriken, and makes Busa find it on his own. And at the end of NG1, he teleports away/transforms into a falcon (I am not sure which one), which he could have done it in the first place to escape the Underworld. You can argue that he did not have the strength left to make this option of escape, but he still had to fight Murai at the end (who then possessed the power of the Dark Dragon, putting him more or less so in the same par as the Vigoor Emperor), and then just teleport away afterwards.

And Rachel's role in both NG1 and NGS2 was really lame imo, but you probably have a point in Ayane's role in NG3RE. I can understand why she had that role there (Irene knows the Mugen Tenshin ninjas as shown in DOAD)

 

[deathofaninja]

Thanks for posting the image. I forgot what it looked like. It's easier to read your argument with a big-ass image in the way. Nice.

What makes you say that I was never a fan of the character (Kasumi)?

Hayashi wasn't the lead designer of Yaiba. That would be Keiji Inafune.

How does being protective make you creepy? Well, creepy is subjective, but whenever you get those obsessed, possessive types with their waifus or celebrity crushes I find them pretty fucking creepy. Only difference with Itagaki is that he claims they're like his daughters while he sexualizes them.

Your argument appears to be that Itagaki respects female characters more because he doesn't pointlessly sexualize them as much as Hayashi (lol). But let's look at Ninja Gaiden itself.
NG1: Rachel.
NG2: Rachel again. Er, I mean, "Irene."
NG3: Clothed female who is not a copy-pasted BDSM fantasy.
"Oh, but Rachel is a great character and the one from NG3 isn't." Yeah, sure.

None of this of course really matters if Hayashi isn't the lead designer of NG4, and there's no reason to assume that he will be at this point.

I'm not dipping back into the Rachel argument with you. Why because you know how awesome she is already.

 

[Brute]

And you know how awesome I am at demolishing shoddy rhetoric.

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

All this talk about kasumi being innocent, is what i don't like about her character, her whole motivation in the start of the series is revenge and you want to convince me that she is not ready to chop some heads off? Also, i mentioned a lot of times in the discord, but every tiny bit of evidence points to kasumi being the stronger of the ninjas, besides Ryu of course, she is weirdly strong, is insane, if Kasumi dropped the "i don't want to fight you thing", her character would be much better.

Actually, Kasumi did drop a huge level of her reluctance in DOA5, especially in the ending and in her character quotes.

Yeah, she's not telling people to bring it, but she's not exactly like say Honoka levels like in past DOA games. She outright states she plans on bringing the fight to Donovan, not standing by and trying to stop everyone else from going to war like in DOA4.
Before she was really hesistant and reluctant, now it's basically "You poke the bear and you will be dropped." now.

Personally, I don't agree that Kasumi is the stronger of the ninjas but more of the same level of Hayate and Ayane for several reasons. First one being that Hayate fought Kasumi in DOA2 and defeated her in his amnesiac state, with only karate alone. One can argue that Kasumi is stronger because she defeated Raidou in hand to hand combat. In the later scene, both Kasumi and Raidou casted the Torn Sky Blast against each other, with Raidou overpowering Kasumi at first. If not for Busa's intervention, Kasumi would have been in a similar, or a worse state than Hayate

That was Dimension's retcon as otherwise, Kasumi killed him by herself just like Ayane does in DOA3 to Genra.

If we look at the scene where Raidou came back to the village to steal the Torn Sky Blast Technique, the reason for Hayate's downfall was because he used the Torn Sky Blast against him, which was also what Kasumi did in DOA1

And he did that even though Ayane EXPLICITLY told him that Raidou is capable of copying techniques and what he wants is the Sky Torn Blast.

Just because Hayate got bitch slapped by Raidou in that scene does not automatically make him weaker than Kasumi

You're right, it doesn't...by itself.
Then you have Project Epsilon outright fail specifically because of him meanwhile Kasumi is the one whose cloned and those made into super weapons over Hayate. And then you have DOA3 beat Hayate to fight Genra...
It honestly doesn't really look good for him in the long run at all.

 

[TheDragonAwakens]

That was Dimension's retcon as otherwise, Kasumi killed him by herself just like Ayane does in DOA3 to Genra.

I just wanted to ask, in the original DOA1, did they use the Torn Sky Blast against each other? I'm wasn't sure about that.

You're right, it doesn't...by itself.
Then you have Project Epsilon outright fail specifically because of him meanwhile Kasumi is the one whose cloned and those made into super weapons over Hayate. And then you have DOA3 beat Hayate to fight Genra...
It honestly doesn't really look good for him in the long run at all.

Kasumi was captured first so clones of her were made first. When Hayate was captured, he was in a coma and was still recovering from his injury.
And we cannot determine when will the siblings actually fight at their best against each other.