Your hopes for DOA5U Hayate

[TakedaZX]

- I'd love to see the return of 3K's sitdown stun properties, but I think that's very unlikely.

There's no reason for them not to give Hayate a 3K SD stun. If they decreased the stun quality of it, they could give him the possibility of an 8p after it, sort of like with P+K now. Early in stun that's a PPP, 33KK or BT Cancel 4P6P+K~K BT 7K on lights. Bayman has the same deal with his 3K SD stun.

- I'd like for PPK/H+K/Sidestep K to not be useless. Ideally either return the knockback from DOA3, or the turnaround stun from DOA4.

Agreed.

On another note, I'm finding 3P to be an issue. If you don't know already, if you happen to hit someone with a mid while they're crouching, it will give you a stun on NH even if the move doesn't initially stun on NH. This becomes and issue because 3P is one of Hayate's more common pokes, this creates a major issue because I've hit people a multitude of times with this when I know they're going to try and duck out and less and less have I been able to work with it because it does not stun a crouching opponent.

This wouldn't be the first move that I've seen to do this (8K from Hitomi), but at the same time it's kind of an issue that bugs me. Hitomi's 8K even in strings usually ends up coming to +1 on NH anyway but Hayate's at -5. I'd rather have the advantage for catching someone slipping up.

Also I'm still missing the old wind dash. It just seems like i'd be helpful to have for getting in while the other wind dash could stay as way to whiff punish and also more so a means to an end when it comes to the cancels...

But lets be honest for a second... Hayate has a million launchers for any height at any time and for a multitude of speeds.

High - 6k, 4k6k
Mid P - 8p, 6p+kp+k, h3p, h3pp
Mid K - 33K, 9K, 8K, 66K (technically), 6P+K~K (was a launcher)

Someone like JL only has 7K (H), 9K (Mid K), and 33P (Mid P) and other than that a few threshold break launchers, but so does Hayate if we count those as well.

So I was thinking why not scrap 8K (or keep it since it doesn't really matter anyway) and if the old wind dash is put in change 236F~K to the 8K animation and give it really good tracking so that it'll keep SS in check when coming in. It'll still be unsafe but it'll make people think twice about trying to sidestep while also giving the chance at a low crush. The launch will be DOA4 style like the Power Launcher does but to a lesser degree. The opponent will flip a few times then will bounce on the ground. By the time of the bounce, Hayate will have recovered and can possibily follow up with 8p, BT 7K or perhaps wind dash K, pp6pk.

There's a lot to work out on that idea but I still think it'd be great if they gave Hayate both of his stances to work with. No one can complain about the problem of him having too many stances and that it requires more guessing because someone like Ryu has more options out of his stance than both of Hayate's combined and actual safe ways into his stance. Christie holds two stances and JAK holds more options than both of Hayate's stances as well. I mean maybe we'd have to wait til DOA6 for them to work something like this out but I don't think we'd have to worry about it being a major integration. DOA4's wind dash would just be for coming in hot. DOA5's wind dash would be the mix-up with attacks for getting that launch or putting the pressure on for people that are patient

If they did act on this idea, in DOA6 (if it comes), they would work out cancels into the DOA4 dash and cancels from that dash into the DOA5 wind dash.

At that point it could be something like... ( = DOA4 WD, = DOA5 WD)



So 3K would hit and Hayate would continue his momentum into a twist going into the DOA4 wind dash and follows up with the elbow and he'd turn again into the DOA5 wind dash following up with the wind dash kick launcher (assuming it goes back to DOA5.01/.02 properties) meaning he'll get the highest launch from the kick so that he can follow up with ppp, 33kk.

This just seems like the direct they should of considered.

TLR - If Hayate has both of his wind dashes in DOA5U, I think he'd have a better time. I'm willing to wait for DOA6 for a major intergration of using both in combos or something like that but i'd definitely love to see him at least have access to both in DOA5U.

Also they should add 236F~F+K and make the kick a mobile version of his 8K so that he'll have tracking and the hit effect can be the DOA4 launch, flipping into a ground bounce where after he can follow up.

 

[EvilJun]

- I'd like to see them return the feature where if you use a throw that only gives frame advantage and does no damage (Hayate's 236T, Ayane's 64T, etc.), then you get increased frame advantage on a counter or high counter throw.

this 1000x

I also don't see the point in his wind dash throw not being an offensive hold, pretty sure its one of the slowest throws in the game.

 

[TakedaZX]

this 1000x

I also don't see the point in his wind dash throw not being an offensive hold, pretty sure its one of the slowest throws in the game.

I'd imagine because it comes from a high crush, but if they add more situations where a 50/50 on wind dash K and P+K will be present then it'd be a great mix-up for punishing the holds. Frankly it already is with 4P. Chances are with 3K, H+K, 66KK (after 66K is changed to a stun) it'll be the same situation period.

So in the end it could potentially be great either way... I'm game for it as an OH but I don't mind it being a throw.

 

[Gultigargar]

Forgot to mention that they should change his "finger-gun" taunt to HAYATE BEEEAM!!! and add it as a tag throw with Zack.

 

[EvilJun]

haha so it seems team ninja buffed hayate not by giving him force techs but by removing them from everyone else.

 

[TakedaZX]

Just let me continuously whack the person on the ground until they get up correctly and I will be content.

Ugh, I miss Hayate's old wind dash.

 

[Zeo]

Will do basically the same thing I did in the Ein topic and list what I listed a long time ago in another topic but with some tweaks and changes (and omissions).


Strikes (Frame Changes):
- All of Hayate's charge attacks and strings with chargeable finishers should be bumped up to +5 I think. +3 is nice but the wind-up for the charge is a bit long even after the speed buff and +3 isn't big enough of a reward.
- Sidestep should cause a turnaround stun on hit. A neutral guard break is ok but you get absolutely nothing off of it if it hits and there's really no reason to use it over Sidestep .
- Needs to go back to DOA3.1 status. +2 on block. Hayate still doesn't have great traps and this move starts off with a high which can be crushed. Also only the 2nd hit should cause a wall splat.
- is -7, punishable on normal hit without a followup. This is bad, it's a bit fast to give advantage but it should be buffed up to around -3 or even neutral to +1 on NH. Being punished for landing a hit is ludicrous in any situation.
- I recall being safer in DOA3 as well, I think it should be buffed up to around -5 on block, the followup however should remain unsafe.
- , and should be safe. Around -5 or -6
- / Needs to go back to Alpha build status. More evasiveness, unholdable back turn stun or sit-down stun if he doesn't get to the opponent's back. This move was needlessly nerfed.
- and (With Hayate at BT) should guarantee a CB if the opponent is in critical stun after the 2nd hit.
- should be +1 or +2 on block.
- Needs to be unholdable again, why it isn't is beyond me. Amazingly slow mid kick launcher which is easily slow escaped.
- should be +1 on block and given back it's SDS on crouching opponents.
- Should be safe, -4 on block instead of -10 and it should have the properties of a low attack. (IE beating out OHs)
- should continue to stagger the opponent, but cause a trip stun if landed at close range.
- should return to DOA4 status, delayable followups.
- Needs to be buffed up to +5 on block. +1 is too pitiful and he'll still lose to the fastest characters.
- Needs to be a guard break and +15 on block instead of +2, and should cause a ground bounce on both NH and CH with potential followups.
- S

Strikes (Other Changes):
- should cause a deeper unholdable trip-stun on both CH and in stun, and should regain it's followup from DOA4, which should be a 2-in-1 on CH. The followup should also cause a SDS.
- needs to come back, needs to be safe and needs to track. As does it's wind dash variant. Also the Wind dash version should turn back into a launcher.
- (I think that's the motion, the uppercut from the dash) should be a guard break and give around +3 frame advantage.
- should be a 2-in-1 launcher, and faster.


Throw Changes:
- should be +11 instead of +9 on CT and HCT and guarantee a 100+ damage BT combo.
- should be an OH.
- Raijin needs a damage buff. Way too ridiculous to do especially with it's current input issues for what it does now.

Other Changes:
- should have a teleport followup to get to the opponent's back, has Hayate's old wind dash had in DOA4. - Confirmed!
- should get a high-crushing low attack variant. Frame advantage on NH and trip stun on CH.
- should come back. Pretty sure he doesn't currently have this move and that he did in the trailer/alpha build. It should retain it's sidestep properties and cause a ground bounce with potential followups.

I'm an Ein and DOA3 Hayate player. I don't feel Hayate needs large amounts of flash, gimmickry or excessive amounts of moves/mixups in order to be threatening. Just a solid buff to his fundamentals and he'll be plenty strong.

 

[Jaguar360]

Throw Changes:
- should be an OH.
- Raijin needs a damage buff. Way too ridiculous to do especially with it's current input issues for what it does now.

Awesome post! I don't really think that Hayate needs an OH. He's varied enough as it is. Having a 58 power offensive hold would be ridiculous IMO. should become 10 or 11 frames instead.
I totally agree on Raijin though. It should become 80 power, Nakiryu should become 70 power, and his should either become 55-60 power or be replaced with Ryujin (DOA4 version).

 

[Tenryuga]

Zeo's list is great. Unfortunately the day Hayate gets all that is the day DOA breaks free of the idea that it's ok to have -12 on block POKES. Which doesn't look like i'ts happening anytime soon. Also LMAO at 100+ damage guaranteed combo off a 7 frame throw. That would be great but we know that's never going to happen and if it does lol it will be 1.03 Hayate all over again where he'll have it for like 2 weeks then he will get a major nerf because it was too broken.

 

[TakedaZX]

Will do basically the same thing I did in the Ein topic and list what I listed a long time ago in another topic but with some tweaks and changes (and omissions).


Strikes (Frame Changes):
- All of Hayate's charge attacks and strings with chargeable finishers should be bumped up to +5 I think. +3 is nice but the wind-up for the charge is a bit long even after the speed buff and +3 isn't big enough of a reward.
I agree... but the problem is 236T, 7K. It's too damn strong to create that powerful of a mix-up on a guard break. Don't get me wrong, I want Hayate to be a strong character but to give him much better offense like this then give him one of the most powerful NH/Punishment throws in the game... that's Ludacris.

So it's either this change comes and 236T goes/gets nerfed on NH to just frame advantage for a mix-up while CH gives 236T, 7K advantage (for catching SS) and on HCH he gets 3k free... or 236T shenanigans can be canned all together and just be frame advantage and his normal throws get buffed. I'd rather rely on the poor man's raijin from doa4 (33T).
- Sidestep should cause a turnaround stun on hit. A neutral guard break is ok but you get absolutely nothing off of it if it hits and there's really no reason to use it over Sidestep .
It's also high so that's another issue. I think it should be minor plus on block (+1 - +3) to cover his ass after using it, not so much to give him true offense but just something to keep him flowing. The turn around stun should be given along side H+K and PPK. I think a wind dash cancel would be in order too.
- Needs to go back to DOA3.1 status. +2 on block. Hayate still doesn't have great traps and this move starts off with a high which can be crushed. Also only the 2nd hit should cause a wall splat.
Agreed. I never use 9p specifically for wall splatting and it becomes a hassle when it does.
- is -7, punishable on normal hit without a followup. This is bad, it's a bit fast to give advantage but it should be buffed up to around -3 or even neutral to +1 on NH. Being punished for landing a hit is ludicrous in any situation.
Agreed. -4 seems alright. Mainly because, 1pp is interruptable by a 9 frame jab meaning on hit confirm you can probably be interrupted by damn near anything. Same for 1p2k... except by a 6p from most anyone... problematic
- I recall being safer in DOA3 as well, I think it should be buffed up to around -5 on block, the followup however should remain unsafe.
Amen brother.
- , and should be safe. Around -5 or -6
Hell even doa4 status -9 would be friggin fine. Like crap, 66P's follow ups can ALL be interrupted by a 11i mid, meaning you have to commit to an unsafe follow up that probably won't do it's job. 66PK is slow to track SS...
- / Needs to go back to Alpha build status. More evasiveness, unholdable back turn stun or sit-down stun if he doesn't get to the opponent's back. This move was needlessly nerfed.
It's actually not too bad... Just can't be abused anymore. Idm though.
- and (With Hayate at BT) should (always) guarantee a CB if the opponent is in critical stun after the 2nd hit.
3PP can probably be buffed up slightly. It will guarantee a CB if say Hayate gets 8p blocked and his opponent is Hayate. Hayate can punish with 3K, 3PP, 7P and it will CB no matter how hard they SE. Something like 8p+kp, 3pp, 7p won't work because 8p+kp pushes the opponent to far away for the 7p to hit on its first active frame. They should increase the advantage by 2 on highest SE.
- should be +1 or +2 on block.
Instead of just this, I just believe in increasing the frame traps and frame advantage deal for the characters in general so you're not punished for hitting someone on NH and for using a completely obvious move. Lets do this.
- Needs to be unholdable again, why it isn't is beyond me. Amazingly slow mid kick launcher which is easily slow escaped.
Ok. I assume it's because it's mid now though as opposed to 4 since it was high.
- should be +1 on block and given back it's SDS on crouching opponents.
Frame advantage, yes.
- Should be safe, -4 on block instead of -10 and it should have the properties of a low attack. (IE beating out OHs)
Agreed. Seeing as it seems that Ayane can crush the DG with things like 3PP and 4P. I'll have to confirm that.
- should continue to stagger the opponent, but cause a trip stun if landed at close range.
You're really speaking my language in a lot of this. +17, no SE like in DOA4 to give some real pressure.
- should return to DOA4 status, delayable followups.
I don't think it's necessary for the last hit... but definitely for sweep shenanigans.
- Needs to be buffed up to +5 on block. +1 is too pitiful and he'll still lose to the fastest characters.
Agreed though +3 won't be terrible if H+K gets the stun back. 4P might need a slight range increase though for dealing with JAK.
- Needs to be a guard break and +15 on block instead of +2, and should cause a ground bounce on both NH and CH with potential followups.
For as slow as it is, yea. It's SSable and free stoppable too, but if you're going to say NH and CH, HCH should be include making it a launcher in general. No major follow ups are necessary, but it'd be appreciated.

Strikes (Other Changes):
- should cause a deeper unholdable trip-stun on both CH and in stun, and should regain it's followup from DOA4, which should be a 2-in-1 on CH. The followup should also cause a SDS.
Bring back the follow up and you don't need 2K to be extremely good. Make 2KK really good then you'll have them holding giving you a bunch of messed up shenanigans after. In stun 1p is already good since there is a 50/50 on launchers and it gives an increased launch height. 2KK though would be appreciated.
- needs to come back, needs to be safe and needs to track. As does it's wind dash variant. Also the Wind dash version should turn back into a launcher.
God yes.
- (I think that's the motion, the uppercut from the dash) should be a guard break and give around +3 frame advantage.
You scare me sometimes Zeo, this would make him a bit too monsterous... this being unsafe will be fine, but a better follow up than 33KK should be given on NH and in stun.
- should be a 2-in-1 launcher, and faster.
2 in 1 in stun and on HCH.


Throw Changes:
- should be +11 instead of +9 on CT and HCT and guarantee a 100+ damage BT combo.
On NH, that's too damn strong. Even 236T 7K is too strong. I go by a idea of just buffs too but if you buff everything, this will leave him with no weakness which will be DOA4 ninja's vs everyone all over again. Like I said before, the NH, to CH, to HCH ladder of advantage increase should be referred to.
- should be an OH.
Depends really. If Hayate doesn't get an offensive dash to work with (his wind dash from doa4 beside his new wind dash, then I'm all for it but his deal is lacking in ranged offensive pressure that will catch people that run away from him. The old wind dash cuts a lot of distance, so if they give him that, the new wind dash will simply be a way of being means to an end. Basically more wind dash cancels into that doa5 dash to get the launcher mix-up and the throw being there for the hi counter punish on holding.
- Raijin needs a damage buff. Way too ridiculous to do especially with it's current input issues for what it does now.
Yup.
Other Changes:
- should have a teleport followup to get to the opponent's back, has Hayate's old wind dash had in DOA4. - Confirmed!
- should get a high-crushing low attack variant. Frame advantage on NH and trip stun on CH.
I think something like a sweeping punch would be cool
- should come back. Pretty sure he doesn't currently have this move and that he did in the trailer/alpha build. It should retain it's sidestep properties and cause a ground bounce with potential followups.

I'm an Ein and DOA3 Hayate player. I don't feel Hayate needs large amounts of flash, gimmickry or excessive amounts of moves/mixups in order to be threatening. Just a solid buff to his fundamentals and he'll be plenty strong.

Overall I like your ideas dude but sometimes I get scared of what you're asking cause you're covering all of his weak points, all of them. Doing that will make a DOA5.03 Hayate situation... even though he had clear weaknesses. Only thing not covered is his hold game... which... isn't terribly bad anyway.

So I think we should pull back a little.

 

[Zeo]

Strikes (Frame Changes):
- All of Hayate's charge attacks and strings with chargeable finishers should be bumped up to +5 I think. +3 is nice but the wind-up for the charge is a bit long even after the speed buff and +3 isn't big enough of a reward.
I agree... but the problem is 236T, 7K. It's too damn strong to create that powerful of a mix-up on a guard break. Don't get me wrong, I want Hayate to be a strong character but to give him much better offense like this then give him one of the most powerful NH/Punishment throws in the game... that's Ludacris.

So it's either this change comes and 236T goes/gets nerfed on NH to just frame advantage for a mix-up while CH gives 236T, 7K advantage (for catching SS) and on HCH he gets 3k free... or 236T shenanigans can be canned all together and just be frame advantage and his normal throws get buffed. I'd rather rely on the poor man's raijin from doa4 (33T).
Characters like Akira can get more than 71 damage guaranteed off a guard break. And characters like Bayman and Bass are scarier once your guard is broken. As far as the mix-up goes, it doesn't feel TOO powerful and for a 30+ frame MID PUNCH? I think the advantage is well deserved for whatever comes after it.
- Sidestep should cause a turnaround stun on hit. A neutral guard break is ok but you get absolutely nothing off of it if it hits and there's really no reason to use it over Sidestep .
It's also high so that's another issue. I think it should be minor plus on block (+1 - +3) to cover his ass after using it, not so much to give him true offense but just something to keep him flowing. The turn around stun should be given along side H+K and PPK. I think a wind dash cancel would be in order too.
I can agree with this.

- Needs to go back to DOA3.1 status. +2 on block. Hayate still doesn't have great traps and this move starts off with a high which can be crushed. Also only the 2nd hit should cause a wall splat.
Agreed. I never use 9p specifically for wall splatting and it becomes a hassle when it does.
+1
- is -7, punishable on normal hit without a followup. This is bad, it's a bit fast to give advantage but it should be buffed up to around -3 or even neutral to +1 on NH. Being punished for landing a hit is ludicrous in any situation.
Agreed. -4 seems alright. Mainly because, 1pp is interruptable by a 9 frame jab meaning on hit confirm you can probably be interrupted by damn near anything. Same for 1p2k... except by a 6p from most anyone... problematic
I can agree with this as well.

- I recall being safer in DOA3 as well, I think it should be buffed up to around -5 on block, the followup however should remain unsafe.
Amen brother.
+1
- , and should be safe. Around -5 or -6
Hell even doa4 status -9 would be friggin fine. Like crap, 66P's follow ups can ALL be interrupted by a 11i mid, meaning you have to commit to an unsafe follow up that probably won't do it's job. 66PK is slow to track SS...
+1
- / Needs to go back to Alpha build status. More evasiveness, unholdable back turn stun or sit-down stun if he doesn't get to the opponent's back. This move was needlessly nerfed.
It's actually not too bad... Just can't be abused anymore. Idm though.
Not necessarily necessary now that I think about it, we do have his SSP now. It's a welcome buff but not a mandatory one.
- and (With Hayate at BT) should (always) guarantee a CB if the opponent is in critical stun after the 2nd hit.
3PP can probably be buffed up slightly. It will guarantee a CB if say Hayate gets 8p blocked and his opponent is Hayate. Hayate can punish with 3K, 3PP, 7P and it will CB no matter how hard they SE. Something like 8p+kp, 3pp, 7p won't work because 8p+kp pushes the opponent to far away for the 7p to hit on its first active frame. They should increase the advantage by 2 on highest SE.
+1
- should be +1 or +2 on block.
Instead of just this, I just believe in increasing the frame traps and frame advantage deal for the characters in general so you're not punished for hitting someone on NH and for using a completely obvious move. Lets do this.
That'll work too.
- Needs to be unholdable again, why it isn't is beyond me. Amazingly slow mid kick launcher which is easily slow escaped.
Ok. I assume it's because it's mid now though as opposed to 4 since it was high.
+1
- should be +1 on block and given back it's SDS on crouching opponents.
Frame advantage, yes.
+1
- Should be safe, -4 on block instead of -10 and it should have the properties of a low attack. (IE beating out OHs)
Agreed. Seeing as it seems that Ayane can crush the DG with things like 3PP and 4P. I'll have to confirm that.
+1
- should continue to stagger the opponent, but cause a trip stun if landed at close range.
You're really speaking my language in a lot of this. +17, no SE like in DOA4 to give some real pressure.
+1
- should return to DOA4 status, delayable followups.
I don't think it's necessary for the last hit... but definitely for sweep shenanigans.
The sweep was mostly what I was talking about anyway.
- Needs to be buffed up to +5 on block. +1 is too pitiful and he'll still lose to the fastest characters.
Agreed though +3 won't be terrible if H+K gets the stun back. 4P might need a slight range increase though for dealing with JAK.
+1
- Needs to be a guard break and +15 on block instead of +2, and should cause a ground bounce on both NH and CH with potential followups.
For as slow as it is, yea. It's SSable and free stoppable too, but if you're going to say NH and CH, HCH should be include making it a launcher in general. No major follow ups are necessary, but it'd be appreciated.
+1

Strikes (Other Changes):
- should cause a deeper unholdable trip-stun on both CH and in stun, and should regain it's followup from DOA4, which should be a 2-in-1 on CH. The followup should also cause a SDS.
Bring back the follow up and you don't need 2K to be extremely good. Make 2KK really good then you'll have them holding giving you a bunch of messed up shenanigans after. In stun 1p is already good since there is a 50/50 on launchers and it gives an increased launch height. 2KK though would be appreciated.
Where this and 1pp would differ would be 2KK being guaranteed on CH but 1pp doing more damage. 2K doesn't give much of a trip stun if it does land then the followup would knockdown. The followup would only SDS if the first hit of the string did not. I should have mentioned that. A 2-in-1 that has a guaranteed SDS on both CH and in stun would be a bit too good even I admit.
- needs to come back, needs to be safe and needs to track. As does it's wind dash variant. Also the Wind dash version should turn back into a launcher.
God yes.
+10
- (I think that's the motion, the uppercut from the dash) should be a guard break and give around +3 frame advantage.
You scare me sometimes Zeo, this would make him a bit too monsterous... this being unsafe will be fine, but a better follow up than 33KK should be given on NH and in stun.
Yeah I admit I got a little overzealous with this one. It can stay as is. A higher launch on NH would be nice though.
- should be a 2-in-1 launcher, and faster.
2 in 1 in stun and on HCH.
Hm... I suppose I can settle on this one.


Throw Changes:
- should be +11 instead of +9 on CT and HCT and guarantee a 100+ damage BT combo.
On NH, that's too damn strong. Even 236T 7K is too strong. I go by a idea of just buffs too but if you buff everything, this will leave him with no weakness which will be DOA4 ninja's vs everyone all over again. Like I said before, the NH, to CH, to HCH ladder of advantage increase should be referred to.
I said only on CT and HCT (Counter and Hi-Counter throw). But maybe CT would be a little too strong. I stand by getting the +11 on HCT though. Hold punishing is good and he can should be able to get a bit more with 12 frame throws and wall shenanegins anyway.
- should be an OH.
Depends really. If Hayate doesn't get an offensive dash to work with (his wind dash from doa4 beside his new wind dash, then I'm all for it but his deal is lacking in ranged offensive pressure that will catch people that run away from him. The old wind dash cuts a lot of distance, so if they give him that, the new wind dash will simply be a way of being means to an end. Basically more wind dash cancels into that doa5 dash to get the launcher mix-up and the throw being there for the hi counter punish on holding.
I still think it would work better as an OH. Sure you sacrifice a bit of damage if it's not a throw but people are more likely to just throw out a button when they see that dash and the OH would do nicely against that. He has plenty of throws to deal with hold spammers and it would force players to think a little more instead of just throwing out a button and knowing it'll beat whatever his dash shenanagins will be.
- Raijin needs a damage buff. Way too ridiculous to do especially with it's current input issues for what it does now.
Yup.
+1

Other Changes:
- should have a teleport followup to get to the opponent's back, has Hayate's old wind dash had in DOA4. - Confirmed!
- should get a high-crushing low attack variant. Frame advantage on NH and trip stun on CH.
I think something like a sweeping punch would be cool
I wouldn't mind that either.
- should come back. Pretty sure he doesn't currently have this move and that he did in the trailer/alpha build. It should retain it's sidestep properties and cause a ground bounce with potential followups.

I'm an Ein and DOA3 Hayate player. I don't feel Hayate needs large amounts of flash, gimmickry or excessive amounts of moves/mixups in order to be threatening. Just a solid buff to his fundamentals and he'll be plenty strong.

Overall I like your ideas dude but sometimes I get scared of what you're asking cause you're covering all of his weak points, all of them. Doing that will make a DOA5.03 Hayate situation... even though he had clear weaknesses. Only thing not covered is his hold game... which... isn't terribly bad anyway.

So I think we should pull back a little.

I went a little overboard in a few spots but aside from that what I'm asking for I don't see is terribly unreasonable. DOA3.1 Hayate's cartwheel alone made him scarier than anything I listed here. And thinking about it this would assume he was the only character buffed.

If every character more or less got an upgrade like this, wouldn't we have a more solid game? In 3.1 more or less everyone had tools on this level. This game doesn't have to be 3.1, but it should have some of the fundamentals that made that game good. Like.... good characters...

 

[TakedaZX]

Well I was saying that 4k6k is already a 2 in 1 on HCH and in stun right now.

236T is just a fluke anyway in my opinion... I wish they'd just change the animation of 66T to it (because that's what the new tag throw for Kasumi and Hayate is. Hayate does 66T but lands on his feet the 7K's and so on. It looks so much better that way). But yea that was my fault. I didn't full register the "CT" and "HCT" in my head. But yea I feel like 236T can be a big part of his style but if it's gunna be there, level it out. Increase his throw damage to Sarah status (good but not better than a grappler). The ladder on 236T would be +8, +9, and +11. Guaranteed Jab on NT so pp or 7p string mix-ups or a throw mix-up (the back throw and I'll explain my 7p idea later if you haven't seen it). CT would give the 7K mix-up for you catching sidestep or someone throwing from disadvantage). HCT would be the full scale deal. You wanna hold out of stun? Full combo to work with that's powerful but not as powerful as the Raijin and still cool.

7p would be a new string beginner. High hook sorta like Hitomi's 7p but it has a high palm sorta like hers as a follow up (7PP) 7PPP would be a mid gut punch like her 4PPP end or P+KPP end. It would also be able to be charged into his Rekkuga (+3 elbow) guard breaks.

7PK is the main point of this new string though, giving Hayate a high to mid mix-up that stuns. 7PKP and 7PK2K would be the follow ups to that. 7PKP would be like Hitomi's 4KP but a palm instead that knocks down and 7PK2K would be a low sweep like his other ones.

As far as the wind dash throw goes. Yea I mean I feel ya. I'm not saying it's too unfair or anything it's just if you do give the 50/50's on the launcher it isn't as necessary. Returning the old wind dash makes me feel better about it overall so that with the current wind dash being a long side it, you won't have to rely on the new one for an offensive move.

(This is also considering the possibility of adding a tracking mid kick to the old wind dash as 236F~H+K which would be a mobile 8K that gives the knockdown it gave in DOA4 for a 8p8k follow up.

I've been over this idea a few times but it basically revolves around me considering the DOA4 wind dash they type of dah that was means to an entry and the new wind dash as means to an end, i.e. launches, big damage throw with no real oki or follow up options after it and the high punch covering his ass if he expects to get blocked.

It's not like having two stances is a big deal anyway. Look at someone like Ayane, Helena, and Brad. Including BT Ayane has about 3 stances (BT, 11, and 33), Helena has two (BT and BKO), and Brad has... well... (BT, Laydown Head towards, Laydown Feet Towards, Hand stand, BT Handstand, and his Crane Stance). I include for these characters because they have actual adept mix-ups and can truly fight you with their backs to you the whole time keeping you on lockdown (and also they have BT throws).

Giving Hayate means to an entry and means to an end probably would not be that big of a deal, plus it gives him a low to come in with which fixes that missing area of the DOA5 Wind Dash)

 

[Matt Ponton]

Well I was saying that 4k6k is already a 2 in 1 on HCH and in stun right now.

It's a 2 hit natural combo on Counter-Blow as well.

Sadly, I wouldn't expect much changes to Hayate. Japan feels he's currently top tier.

 

[TakedaZX]

It's a 2 hit natural combo on Counter-Blow as well.

Sadly, I wouldn't expect much changes to Hayate. Japan feels he's currently top tier.

They haven't really backed it up though, not by tournaments at least or footage on the net.

 

[EvilJun]

But the launch height is abysmal lol, at least increase it so it's possible to do his wind dash juggle if you launch at threshold

 

[TakedaZX]

But the launch height is abysmal lol, at least increase it so it's possible to do his wind dash juggle if you launch at threshold

You can on lightweights. You can also h3pp, 33kk if timed correctly.
There is something else btw Zeo.

- Needs to go back to DOA3.1 status. +2 on block. Hayate still doesn't have great traps and this move starts off with a high which can be crushed. Also only the 2nd hit should cause a wall splat.
9pp can't be interrupted and is a 2 in 1. If that wasn't enough, while 9p[p](full charge) isn't a 2 in 1, I've never had it held on reaction and it's still uninterruptable. It can be SS'd but it's tough. I'd feel better about this being safe on block instead of just +2 right off the bat. At that point there's never going to be a reason to charge it.
- should come back. Pretty sure he doesn't currently have this move and that he did in the trailer/alpha build. It should retain it's sidestep properties and cause a ground bounce with potential followups.
Only thing that bugs me about this one is it seems a bit like a waste of space. SS P functions to give the guaranteed combo, SS K functions to give tracking and low crush. 8P+KP functions to give stun game and better evasion. What would 22/88K do? Give a juggle. But if I can get a juggle from SS P guaranteed... why do I need 88K?

His real weakness is tracking low hitbox characters so he'd need a true mid ss attack or a low. So that being said I'd think that instead of 22/88K, he could first get something like 8P+KK which would go into a sweep. This way he can take care of Christie and Brad after stepping them. After that 22/88K could be implemented but it'd still more so be for show or low crushing.

The input could also be SS H+K (preferably I'd like it to be SS K for old times sake and make the guard break SS H+K).

 

[Zeo]

You can on lightweights. You can also h3pp, 33kk if timed correctly.
There is something else btw Zeo.

- Needs to go back to DOA3.1 status. +2 on block. Hayate still doesn't have great traps and this move starts off with a high which can be crushed. Also only the 2nd hit should cause a wall splat.
9pp can't be interrupted and is a 2 in 1. If that wasn't enough, while 9p[p](full charge) isn't a 2 in 1, I've never had it held on reaction and it's still uninterruptable. It can be SS'd but it's tough. I'd feel better about this being safe on block instead of just +2 right off the bat. At that point there's never going to be a reason to charge it.
You're sure it's uninterruptable during the charge if not held on reaction while being blocked? That I did not know. Perhaps it doesn't need the +2 on block in that case but I stand by it being safe or best case scenario, +0.
- should come back. Pretty sure he doesn't currently have this move and that he did in the trailer/alpha build. It should retain it's sidestep properties and cause a ground bounce with potential followups.
Only thing that bugs me about this one is it seems a bit like a waste of space. SS P functions to give the guaranteed combo, SS K functions to give tracking and low crush. 8P+KP functions to give stun game and better evasion. What would 22/88K do? Give a juggle. But if I can get a juggle from SS P guaranteed... why do I need 88K?

His real weakness is tracking low hitbox characters so he'd need a true mid ss attack or a low. So that being said I'd think that instead of 22/88K, he could first get something like 8P+KK which would go into a sweep. This way he can take care of Christie and Brad after stepping them. After that 22/88K could be implemented but it'd still more so be for show or low crushing.

The input could also be SS H+K (preferably I'd like it to be SS K for old times sake and make the guard break SS H+K).
I think 22/88K would completely eclipse SS K as the low crush and tracking move. Currently SS K gives no advantage on block and the most you'll get as far as low crushing is him jumping over the opponent doing the low, and certain characters will still have the advantage if they recover before he does. 22/88K would actually scare people from throwing out certain lows and allow guaranteed combos after the bounce. 3H+K could be used to crush the low as well, but it lacks the sidestep properties as well as the tracking properties (if I recall...).

I like the string ideas as well, they would certainly widen out Hayate's options, particularly in the stun game. As far as the Wind dash. The old one felt less like a gimmick, but I've grown used to the new one which is why I support buffing his options in that one over including the old one.

I feel him having both wind dashes would clutter his moveset.

 

[TakedaZX]

I like the string ideas as well, they would certainly widen out Hayate's options, particularly in the stun game. As far as the Wind dash. The old one felt less like a gimmick, but I've grown used to the new one which is why I support buffing his options in that one over including the old one.

I feel him having both wind dashes would clutter his moveset.

Yea I can understand that. It is a lot but then again it's not like Hayate has a extremely huge arsenal of strings and mix-ups to begin with. Only reason I didn't suggest canning the new wind dash is because wind dash K and P+K are great for whiff punishmen (specifically wind dash k).

Like I said though, it's not like he's the only one sporting many stances and moves, Helena out ranks him on it period. I'd like to see his old wind dash come back (specifically to set up for mid-long ranged stuff but really the only thing I care about is 236F~2K. Yea he could get it as running 2h+k or something dumb like that... but it wouldn't take away that he has no mid ranged tracking to lock his opponent down. That's why I suggested 236F~H+K. Gets the opponent on lock down and i236F itself gets major distance.

 

[grap3fruitman]

I hope they didn't just add a bunch of his old gimmicky stuff to justify not improving him whatsoever.

 

[TakedaZX]

I never like his backflip fake out in DOA3...