Eliot nerf or not?

[bingsoo]

Good stuff! Don't let the popularity of the character you want to play dissuade you at all. Looks like you're interested in Ayane? Pay close attention to Demon. Silent Legend had a brutal one back in the 2U days, too. You're in good company around here.

TBH I don't know who I like since I've never played the series lol. I just liked what I saw of her in the matches I've seen so far. Thanks and hope to learn a lot in the coming months!

Oh btw, I think I've seen you on the ninjafortress forums when I used to lurk there o.o

 

[CyberEvil]

Yeah, you probably have. Keylay is around here, too.

Grab the game on day one, do what you have to do to unlock characters, and then just get in the lab. Add people from here and start playing matches and you'll start to work out your character(s) before long.

 

[TakedaZX]

Yeah, you probably have. Keylay is around here, too.

Grab the game on day one, do what you have to do to unlock characters, and then just get in the lab. Add people from here and start playing matches and you'll start to work out your character(s) before long.

Yea like me
I'm not new to the DOA series but I'm still learning, so I'll be willing to fight with you too.

 

[Keylay]

Oh btw, I think I've seen you on the ninjafortress forums when I used to lurk there o.o

You should have signed up. I needed more members.

 

[d3v]

You'd have to ask Sorwah though. He made it pretty clear he doesn't want any tier lists posted within the first month or so.

First month is the worst time to put up a tier list anyway. No matter how many players you have in the lab finding stuff out, that's still not enough time to judge how things will affect the game in the long run.

 

[DrDogg]

First month is the worst time to put up a tier list anyway. No matter how many players you have in the lab finding stuff out, that's still not enough time to judge how things will affect the game in the long run.

It'd be more of a reference tool than anything else.

 

[d3v]

It'd be more of a reference tool than anything else.

Maybe, but it also risks misinforming people.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

It'd be more of a reference tool than anything else.

I'd love to see a tier list from day 1 and see how it evolved over the years.

Yeah, I think it'd be pretty cool just to have it for reference and see how it evolves over time, like you said.

 

[TakedaZX]

I disagree with this. You can step his strings, but he can also free cancel and throw you at any point. Throws track.

Also, his low is really good. It's moderately difficult to react to, and you can't really counter the follow-up on reaction. You have to anticipate the follow-up and counter early to get it. This allows him to free cancel and throw you. You also can't slow escape fast enough to avoid the follow-up.

His strings are slow, but that actually makes it easier for him to free cancel and throw you.

I think he's top tier not counting the VF characters. Below Jann Lee and maybe a couple others, but still top tier.

Before this completely dies out, you've discussed his 9f palm, and parry, but what worth comes with his 10 hit combo string? All I've been able to pick up is the 6th hit is a ground bounce launch. Can you hold it at any and all points in it, and it also seems that it doesn't go low so, couldn't someone completely block the string, all 10 hits, then punish after the final hit?

 

[matsu]

Already ?Damn that was pretty fast ....I Have a bad feeling about this.So what could we expect 1 month later ?Nerf the sidestep,wall game,Start button,60hz?
I hate the ninjas but i was sad to hear the "massive" nerf they received.So please..........

 

[Prince Adon]

So we came to the conclusion to not ask for nerfs(especially before a release), it'll only make the game worse. Don't misjudge how drdogg uses the word "broken", and if a character sucks ask for buffs instead. Oh and you scrubs might have to actually TRY and get GOOD now instead of thinking you're good. Oh, and friends don't let friends do drugs.

 

[AKNova7]

Hell no. Hell no!

Always, always buff bad characters to match the good ones. Never nerf a character just because they're good. Obvious exception being broken characters which are extremely rare despite how often the word is thrown around.

Unless, of course, when you make a game a character exceeds the damage threshold you desire for the game. Then nerf accordingly. But, it doesn't exceed DOA's style. so that's alright. However, it is significantly more painful for a developer to buff all the other characters. Much more work. And I'm sure you guys know that.

Because, maybe it's just me, but I have a problem with characters becoming more and more and more and more and more and more powerful, because it seems very rare that when people buff characters to the rest, they get ALL of those characters correct, and in terms of not creating another problem where a character is too strong and a constant buffing loop, it's just easier from a developer's standpoint to go another way.

Though, before I even got in this thread, I knew this was the opinion of the community. So, I suppose I won't complain. However, buffing characters around the top tier to compete with people that have High/Mid parries AND 9 frame moves? That's not an easy balance job at all. But, no, I don't think Eliot's broken at all, and the game isn't even out yet. Though very powerful he is.

So we came to the conclusion to not ask for nerfs(especially before a release), it'll only make the game worse. Don't misjudge how drdogg uses the word "broken", and if a character sucks ask for buffs instead. Oh and you scrubs might have to actually TRY and get GOOD now instead of thinking you're good. Oh, and friends don't let friends do drugs.

...Timeout. Why does lowering damage/removing options make the game worse? I figure it just makes it different. I mean, I know everyone wants every character (or their character, take your pick) to being complete as possible, but isn't that incompleteness part of the fun? It always to me, even when I've played top tier on a bad match-up.

 

[chocogerman777]

they should nerf his hair.. make it a bit shorter like this..

 

[AKNova7]

Lol it's funny because I find that most of the top level players don't particularly like the ninjas too much. It's mostly because a larger part of the scrubs and casuals only play the ninjas.

Personally, I've never played a DoA game before so I'm still highly intrigued by them lol

You picked the right one. Ayane is getting no love right now at all, so..it helps.

 

[Rikuto]

...Timeout. Why does lowering damage/removing options make the game worse? I figure it just makes it different. I mean, I know everyone wants every character (or their character, take your pick) to being complete as possible, but isn't that incompleteness part of the fun? It always to me, even when I've played top tier on a bad match-up.

If you remove Eliots high damage juggles/parries, do you know what he is?

A lightweight character that can be juggled by other characters for maximum damage, whos movelist is composed of about 85% linear mid punches, and has to rely 100% on the DOA 4 stun system for mediocre damage output.

He already had that weakness. Having high damage now regardless of his predictability makes him a unique character. He already has drawbacks, removing damage potential just makes him a shitty character that nobody will ever want to play competitively.

Eliot right now is like a spear... and there's only so many ways you can attack with a spear. When it hits, it needs to hurt.

Losing those unique strengths makes the game overall incredibly bland, with every single character playing exactly the same.... we call that Dead or Alive 4.

Thats like people calling for nerfs on Bass's ground pickup... it was fine. Removing that would make him a shitty character. He is already slower than every other character in the game, which means he HAS to play defensively and wait for YOU to mess up. That's part of his individuality. Remove the strong side of his individuality, and he becomes shit.

The only purpose of nerfing a character is to remove the strong side of their individuality. All of the DOA characters are full of weaknesses already, there is absolutely no need to go nerfing anyone or anything.

 

[Chris Harris]

Ayane is actually pretty decent, she is just particularly hard to be good with. She has some pretty good tools and I like her a lot as well, just I never put in the time with her on any level but she will probably be a problem once Ayane players figure out how to play her.

In this era of games people want the derpy shit with their characters. In DoA 4 Helena was pretty derpy as was Gen Fu which is why many went to Gen Fu. They both did the same thing and the only way to really beat it was to flat out just guess better than they did. So far there is nothing that is that derpy in this game that I have noticed anyway but only time will tell.

@Bryan - Eliot's 2f+k is a good poke but although you can't struggle the follow up you can see it because there is only one follow up. That makes it easier to hold when you see it, not 100% of the time but it makes it easier than most.

I can't wait to see how he turns out later in the life of the game because I think he will end up either at the bottom of top tier or mid tier but that's just me though.

 

[AKNova7]

If you remove Eliots high damage juggles/parries, do you know what he is?

A lightweight character that can be juggled by other characters for maximum damage, whos movelist is composed of about 85% of mid punches, and has to rely 100% on the DOA 4 stun system for mediocre damage output.

He already had that weakness. Having high damage now regardless of his predictability makes him a unique character. He already has drawbacks, removing damage potential just makes him a shitty character that nobody will ever want to play competitively.

Eliot right now is like a spear... and there's only so many ways you can attack with a spear. When it hits, it needs to hurt.

Losing those unique strengths makes the game overall incredibly bland, with every single character playing exactly the same.... we call that Dead or Alive 4.

I was talking in general, not about Eliot specifically. I was referring to the general consensus of never nerfing a character, not Eliot himself. Sorry for not being clear. And, you're right, unique strengths do make the characters unique, but those same things don't have to be hilarious in a game to be any good. I remember when Sarah came out and some of the tools she had, people around the forum were dumbfounded, yet, wanted everyone to be buffed to her level, even though she was already marked as very, very top tier. What I'm saying is, those unique strengths are still unique strengths when less powerful, they're just not nearly as strong as their original versions, which, very well could be too strong in the first place. This isn't the case with Dead or Alive 5 of course, thank god, but we're talking in general here...

Just a little curious why everybody feels this way, not necessarily about DOA.

 

[Rikuto]

I was talking in general, not about Eliot specifically. I was referring to the general consensus of never nerfing a character, not Eliot himself. Sorry for not being clear. And, you're right, unique strengths do make the characters unique, but those same things don't have to be hilarious in a game to be any good. I remember when Sarah came out and some of the tools she had, people around the forum were dumbfounded, yet, wanted everyone to be buffed to her level, even though she was already marked as very, very top tier. What I'm saying is, those unique strengths are still unique strengths when less powerful, they're just not nearly as strong as their original versions, which, very well could be too strong in the first place. This isn't the case with Dead or Alive 5 of course, thank god, but we're talking in general here...

Just a little curious why everybody feels this way, not necessarily about DOA.

Here is some typical game design balance to help you understand why its a problem.

Strength values -- Character A: 5, Character B: 3


Feedback from bad players -- Character A is too powerful, Character B is too weak.

Retarded implementation -- Character A: - 3 strength value, Character B: +3 strength value

Post-patch strength values -- Character A: 2, Character B: 6.


This is actually how fighting game developers do things (hello SCV), because they are attempting to simply do whatever the fanbase wants. They take two actions to solve a balance problem instead of one, and it results in worse balance than the game originally had.

Thats why the best solution was to simply buff Character B and leave Character A the fuck alone. Worst case scenario the game would have had values closer to 5/6 instead of 2/6.

Now even if the game is full of "broken" abilities, everyone will have these "broken" abilities. That is balance. But no matter how hard you try to nerf the game into oblivion, you can never balance it towards the low end because SOMEONE will always end up standing out as better than everyone else due to some loophole like we had with helena/genfu in DOA 4. And they will smack the rest of the cast around like little bitches, resulting in an incredibly boring competitive game with no variety whatsoever.

That's how it always happens. Better to simply make everybody ridiculously good.

This design philosophy was already adopted by Blizzard/Riot Games/Arc Systems/Capcom. They are not exactly unpopular in competitive circuits, yet I could list quite a few developers who turn their nose up at that kind of balance and as a result, struggle endlessly to gain a foothold in the competitive scene.

 

[bingsoo]

You picked the right one. Ayane is getting no love right now at all, so..it helps.

Yeah, I noticed that. I still don't understand why no one is playing her much in the new builds. Personally, I just see some tools from her that should make her at least better than characters like Kasumi, but of course that's just what I'm seeing from the few amount of videos that are up. I'm sure she'll get more love once the game is out.

 

[Rikuto]

Ayane is fine. She has always been a very pure, high mobility whiff punishment character and that playstyle takes an uncommon amount of patience. More patience than a lot of high level players actually have.

The Ayane's will start emerging post-release. They always do.